Ustwo

Linky

You know, I really really hope there is more to this story. If it is as it appears, it just shows that we can not count on mainland Europe to have the slightest backbone against terrorism. I'm not sure if it is fear of their local Islamic populations (note the rioting in Paris) or just having patsies in power.

I wish I had more to say, but there really is nothing else.

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maximusveritas

Yeah, I'm confused by this as well. It says he was serving a life sentence, so then how could his time be up? Too much of a coincidence for it not to be tied to the hostage situation. Of course, they won't admit that.

Willravel

I'd like to know for sure why he was released before I pass judgment. On the surface it looks like an exchange, but things are often more complicated than they seem, and this appears to be extremly complicated.

Edit: Not complicated after all. I just didn't read it carefully enough.

martinguerre

i wonder how the rest of the world felt when we armed the contras and the Iranians.

guess that showed them that we couldn't be counted on, that we had patsies in power.

glass houses. stones.

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alpha phi

Germany most likley released Hamadi as a hostage exchange

Hamadi's release occurred shortly before German hostage Susanne Osthoff was freed in Iraq. The archaeologist was taken on Nov. 25 and was said by German authorities on Sunday to be in safe custody.

He was droped off in Lebanon
The United States would try to enlist the help of the Lebanese government to get custody of Hamadi

So his release is an extradition in disguise.
Only without a bunch of New German hostages being kidnaped.

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Sty

Well, the easy explanation to this case is that he was sentenced for Life in Prison *WITH* the possibility of parole after 19 years

This was just ordinary parole, with all respect to the Law.

Justice is served, everything is fine. All sides satisfied, or are they?

but enter the realities of today's world:

Nice backpedalling, ne?

My opinion in this would be, as a non-US citizen, that he served his time and if the parole board agrees that he should be let go, then everybody should be happy. On the other hand, he should be kept under some surveillance and maybe barred from entering US ever. Your administration should choose that.

What I find distasteful is that there might be a manhunt going on now, in which he might get illegally snatched from the streets of Lebanon and brought to US where he can face a death sentence.

Original article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/in...l?pagewanted=2

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Sty

I route, therefore you exist

Pacifier

perhaps we should have send him to camp x-ray for some torture?

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pan6467

Gee, wonder if the rest of the world gets tired of us dictating to them how to govern their countries.

Wonder how soon someone on the Right will attack me because I defended another nation's right to do what they want.

Yeah, we're all alone in the world.....boohoohoo..... gee wonder if that has anything to do with a president that sold a war to other nations on falsified information?

Wonder if that has anything to do with the "Fuck you, we're the US" bullshit the president plays.

Germany released a killer that served 15 years so fucking what? We never released anyone that committed a crime against a German?

Is it wrong they released him? I don't know, I'm not there to make judgement on him or their country's legal system.

Last time I looked, Germany was a sovereign nation and able to do just about whatever they want to, without our approval.

Is this something the Right will use to point to people in the US that argue Germany is allowed to do what Germany wants to as "unpatriotic German terrorist supporters"?

YES.

Is this going to be used to take heat off Bush's crimes?

YES.

Is this somehow going to be used to promote flag waving and 'Gawd dang babe we's better than them wussy Euros cause we don't do such things here".

YES.

No, maybe we don't allow terrorists to go free after 15 years..... we just let people who rob their company's pension plans, fry their books and destroy lives of 1000's of hard workers off with slaps on the wrists and maybe a little time in a country club prison.

No, we just allow our president to illegally wiretap citizens, to harass them into conformity and to attack them, mercilessly. We just accuse those who exorcise their First Amendment right to speak out as being non patriotic, traitors, treasonists, and whatever, so the Right can drink Bush's piss and believe it's lemonade.


Yep.... down with German.... down with Germany..... how dare they run their country and do things that will piss us off.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Charlatan

The only issue I can see here is that IF if was released in an exchange for the Iraqi hostage it sets a dangerous precident.

IF he was released in a regular "time served" parole type of thing... time to move on.

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dksuddeth

I, for one, have a huge problem with this. The murdering coward killed a US serviceman and for that alone he should be executed. I wonder how long it will be before he's caught or killed on the battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Bill O'Rights

Extremely doubtful.


A more likely scenario is that he will be snatched from the streets of Lebanon, and found in a back alley, with a bullet hole between his eyes. Or...just never seen, or heard from,...ever again.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ratbastid

Yeah, man. This word "terrorism" is fraught with emotion these days.

"He's wunna them TERRISTS! He should FRY!"

The man was tried and convicted for specific crimes that carry specific penalties. Those penalties allow for parole. According to the above, his parole term was extended for several years, even!

There's no crime called "terrorism", in Germany or in the US. There's no established penalty for terrorism or being a terrorist. Those terms are so general and vague, it would be impossible to convict someone of any such crime. If people commit certain crimes, there are established penalties for those, but let's not go making up fictional laws just because our leaders have us whipped into a froth.

Yeah, bad old Germany over there. Not altering years of legal precedent to cater to another country's emotional reaction to the term "terrorism". No wonder we're alone...

Ustwo

The average "life" sentance in Germany served is 20 years.

20% serve until a natural death if they are deemed a danger to society.

He got out in 16 years, 2 less than he was sentanced for at a MINIMUM.



Edit: Ok since he was arrested in 1987 they most likely gave him time served as well, which puts him just over the 18 year minimum sentance. He still of course got out a year ealier than the 'average' life sentance and apparently people who are caught with liquid explosives, hijack planes, are known members of a terrorist organization, and kill hostages are not a 'threat to society' according to Germany.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

kutulu

damn good post pan

stevo

What is news to me is that in Germany you can get paroled and then move to another country. In the US you have to get permission just to leave the county, and half the time they don't even let you do that. So in Germany, if someone is released from prison and put on parole, they can leave the country apparently. So what's the difference between parole and just being released from prison?

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Charlatan

It might have something to do with him being a foreigner. Just speculating.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
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Sty

Actually, according to some article on this thread, he served just shy of a few days of the 19 years. Just a few days.

I'm sorry if Germany's law is much tighter on the 'threat to society'. He didn't qualify, served his time (a few days short but who cares if you have been there for 19 years already), qualified for parole, walked out.

Move on.

I see this as a good example of well functioning justice system. No death senteces, long prison terms for serious offenders and extremelly tight qualification for 'until natural death'.

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br,
Sty

I route, therefore you exist

stevo

I suspect. I suppose if a foreigner was released from a US prison they would deport him first, as well.

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Lebell

There is something I don't understand here.

Some of you complain bitterly when Clinton's blow job and subsequent lie is brought up in relationship to the current administration.

Yet here we are talking about what the US has or has not done in the past as if it somehow has bearing on this.

All I'm saying is that everyone (myself included) ought to try to be consistent.

As to this issue, I am also stunned that somehow this is being seen as anything other than a crime by anyone. Yes, I know that political realities make things not black and white, but maybe that's my own miopic vision.

I personally am willing to cut Bush *some* slack because I think that our anti-terrorist efforts require it.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

(thinking on the fly)


Is Germany engaged in what we are doing here? Using someone to further their political interests?

Are our left leaning members supporting that while they decry when Bush does it?

Are our right leaning members decrying it while they support Bush in it?


Interesting.......

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Ustwo

Not sure where you are going here Lebell but I'm tired, the heat is broken in my office, so I'm cold, and I need to think of xmas presents for the wife ASAP. In other words my brain is on 50% power.

So what do you mean by 'using someone to further their political interests?' that would equate to Germany releasing a known, convicted murderer, terrorist?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ustwo

Gee makes me wonder what those other 20% of germans did that makes them serve a true life sentence eh?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

macmanmike6100

life in prison equals life in prison...although I guess not in Germany

Willravel

If you're sentenced to life in prison with possibility of parole after 25 years in the US, it's posible that person will be free after 25 years. What's with the Germany bashing?

roachboy

gee, a guy convicted for a crime serves his sentence and is paroled.
the americans want him extrdicted to face double jeporady and the rules in germany prohibit it.
because extradition is a complicated thing.
but then i doubt seriously that the americans would extradict someone to face retrial for the same crime in another country on the same grounds.

obviously the problem is due process.
so it seems that conservatives who cannot admit any problems with the conduct of the bush squad are now coming out in opposition to due process in general.
way to go.
great position to defend, folks.

what a goofy thread.

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pan6467

They deported Lucky Luciano. Meyer Lansky was sent out of the country and he became the first Jew to not be welcomed into Isreal. He eventually truly became a man without a country when he died.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

So was Hamadi paroled or was he deported? IF he's paroled he should still be in Germany. If he was deported we should stop saying he was paroled.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Bill O'Rights

Why not?
We've been doing it for roughly...what? 90 some odd years now?
Granted, of course, that some of it...well, they had coming. What with that whole WWI, and WWII thing, you understandand.
Still, though, it's fun, and easy to do.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

pan6467

As a foreigner in Germany it maybe both. Their definition of parole maybe different than ours.... I have no idea. They may have paroled him and told him to leave their country, because they felt that would be best for their country.

I don't live there, I really don't know.

I am amazed at the people saying "well he killed a US serviceman and...." yeah, and our own men have killed gays, blacks, hispanics and so on in their companies and have gotten off for less, in our country's history.

I don't know anything about this case, as I have a feeling 99% of the people on here didn't know anything about it either until now, nor am I going to lose sleep over it.

To me it is cut and dry..... Germany is a sovereign nation, and therefore can do whatever they believe is in their best national interest.

Nowhere in my life contract with my God does it state I have the right or the power to dictate what a foreign country wishes to do. I would venture to say noone here, in government or anywhere else in the US, not of German citizenry , has that clause in their life contract either.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

After much discussion as to where the capital of the new Germany should be -- Bonn or Berlin -- a compromise was struck: Paris.

What ever happened to hating France?
/end threadjack

maximusveritas

Germany has the right to do what it thinks is in its best interest and we have the right to discuss and even criticize those actions.
I don't know the details of this case, but I find it hard to believe that this guy is no longer a threat. Personally, I'm not a fan of parole except in exceptional cases.
Even if the release of this prisoner is not related to the hostage release, it's very likely that Germany made some other form of concession or ransom payment in order to reach a deal. I'm not sure such deals are in the best interest of anyone other than the hostage and the terrorists.

highthief

Yup.

I'd be a lot more concerned about the hundred or so rapists and murderers that get paroled every month WITHIN YOUR OWN COUNTRY before you start moaning about how other people run their jails.

Aren't there enough killers on the loose within each of our nations before we start whining about other nation's justice systems?

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dksuddeth

he was jailed for the hijacking, right?

now lets try him for the murder

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Coppertop

Reading the article helps.

Xazy

It is germany, not surprised.

martinguerre

lebell, the point of bringing up Reagan's actions was that this kind dealing has pretty strong parallels. this isn't some abstract comparison of moral levels, but a direct and substantive connection.

if we believe it is our right to destablize other nations for our benifit, then Germany has the same right. No?

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-John 3:16

Daniel_

My comment as a Eurpean with a little experience of Germany is to say that their penal code clearly is imperfect (as are all such codes) but in general they have a vastly lower murder rate than the US, and therefore maybe, just maybe, their choice to give prisoners parole and not execute people makes something in their society work better.

It's worth consideration that the US has now got to it's 1,000th execution in the current cycle and has one of the highest (if not THE highest) murder rate of any "developed" country.

Which country has the tougher sentences?

Which country has the higher murder rate?

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Ustwo

Taking out gang on gang voilence the US has a very low murder rate, and a lower crime rate than most of Europe.

But reguardless its apples in the oranges here.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

martinguerre

"Taking out gang on gang voilence the US has a very low murder rate"

After you subtract meth use from drug statistics in many places hardly any people are getting high.

The point of butchering the statistic in that way would be what?

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Charlatan

I'm not clear why removing gang on gang violence has any bearing here... violence is violence... murder rate is murder rate. The gang violence is part of the system that is America... just because it doesn't show the same sorts of numbers in other countries doesn't mean apples and oranges it just means the US has bigger fruit.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Pacifier

if you ignore germany more violent parts of soceity, germany also has a pretty low crime rate. but what is the point?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein