Germany shows why we are alone....
 

Linky

You know, I really really hope there is more to this story. If it is as it appears, it just shows that we can not count on mainland Europe to have the slightest backbone against terrorism. I'm not sure if it is fear of their local Islamic populations (note the rioting in Paris) or just having patsies in power.

I wish I had more to say, but there really is nothing else.

Yeah, I'm confused by this as well. It says he was serving a life sentence, so then how could his time be up? Too much of a coincidence for it not to be tied to the hostage situation. Of course, they won't admit that.

I'd like to know for sure why he was released before I pass judgment. On the surface it looks like an exchange, but things are often more complicated than they seem, and this appears to be extremly complicated.

Edit: Not complicated after all. I just didn't read it carefully enough.

i wonder how the rest of the world felt when we armed the contras and the Iranians.

guess that showed them that we couldn't be counted on, that we had patsies in power.

glass houses. stones.

Germany most likley released Hamadi as a hostage exchange

Hamadi's release occurred shortly before German hostage Susanne Osthoff was freed in Iraq. The archaeologist was taken on Nov. 25 and was said by German authorities on Sunday to be in safe custody.

He was droped off in Lebanon
The United States would try to enlist the help of the Lebanese government to get custody of Hamadi

So his release is an extradition in disguise.
Only without a bunch of New German hostages being kidnaped.

Well, the easy explanation to this case is that he was sentenced for Life in Prison *WITH* the possibility of parole after 19 years

This was just ordinary parole, with all respect to the Law.

Justice is served, everything is fine. All sides satisfied, or are they?

but enter the realities of today's world:

Nice backpedalling, ne?

My opinion in this would be, as a non-US citizen, that he served his time and if the parole board agrees that he should be let go, then everybody should be happy. On the other hand, he should be kept under some surveillance and maybe barred from entering US ever. Your administration should choose that.

What I find distasteful is that there might be a manhunt going on now, in which he might get illegally snatched from the streets of Lebanon and brought to US where he can face a death sentence.

Original article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/in...l?pagewanted=2

perhaps we should have send him to camp x-ray for some torture?

Gee, wonder if the rest of the world gets tired of us dictating to them how to govern their countries.

Wonder how soon someone on the Right will attack me because I defended another nation's right to do what they want.

Yeah, we're all alone in the world.....boohoohoo..... gee wonder if that has anything to do with a president that sold a war to other nations on falsified information?

Wonder if that has anything to do with the "Fuck you, we're the US" bullshit the president plays.

Germany released a killer that served 15 years so fucking what? We never released anyone that committed a crime against a German?

Is it wrong they released him? I don't know, I'm not there to make judgement on him or their country's legal system.

Last time I looked, Germany was a sovereign nation and able to do just about whatever they want to, without our approval.

Is this something the Right will use to point to people in the US that argue Germany is allowed to do what Germany wants to as "unpatriotic German terrorist supporters"?

YES.

Is this going to be used to take heat off Bush's crimes?

YES.

Is this somehow going to be used to promote flag waving and 'Gawd dang babe we's better than them wussy Euros cause we don't do such things here".

YES.

No, maybe we don't allow terrorists to go free after 15 years..... we just let people who rob their company's pension plans, fry their books and destroy lives of 1000's of hard workers off with slaps on the wrists and maybe a little time in a country club prison.

No, we just allow our president to illegally wiretap citizens, to harass them into conformity and to attack them, mercilessly. We just accuse those who exorcise their First Amendment right to speak out as being non patriotic, traitors, treasonists, and whatever, so the Right can drink Bush's piss and believe it's lemonade.


Yep.... down with German.... down with Germany..... how dare they run their country and do things that will piss us off.

The only issue I can see here is that IF if was released in an exchange for the Iraqi hostage it sets a dangerous precident.

IF he was released in a regular "time served" parole type of thing... time to move on.

I, for one, have a huge problem with this. The murdering coward killed a US serviceman and for that alone he should be executed. I wonder how long it will be before he's caught or killed on the battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Extremely doubtful.


A more likely scenario is that he will be snatched from the streets of Lebanon, and found in a back alley, with a bullet hole between his eyes. Or...just never seen, or heard from,...ever again.

Yeah, man. This word "terrorism" is fraught with emotion these days.

"He's wunna them TERRISTS! He should FRY!"

The man was tried and convicted for specific crimes that carry specific penalties. Those penalties allow for parole. According to the above, his parole term was extended for several years, even!

There's no crime called "terrorism", in Germany or in the US. There's no established penalty for terrorism or being a terrorist. Those terms are so general and vague, it would be impossible to convict someone of any such crime. If people commit certain crimes, there are established penalties for those, but let's not go making up fictional laws just because our leaders have us whipped into a froth.

Yeah, bad old Germany over there. Not altering years of legal precedent to cater to another country's emotional reaction to the term "terrorism". No wonder we're alone...

The average "life" sentance in Germany served is 20 years.

20% serve until a natural death if they are deemed a danger to society.

He got out in 16 years, 2 less than he was sentanced for at a MINIMUM.

:hmm:

Edit: Ok since he was arrested in 1987 they most likely gave him time served as well, which puts him just over the 18 year minimum sentance. He still of course got out a year ealier than the 'average' life sentance and apparently people who are caught with liquid explosives, hijack planes, are known members of a terrorist organization, and kill hostages are not a 'threat to society' according to Germany.

damn good post pan

What is news to me is that in Germany you can get paroled and then move to another country. In the US you have to get permission just to leave the county, and half the time they don't even let you do that. So in Germany, if someone is released from prison and put on parole, they can leave the country apparently. So what's the difference between parole and just being released from prison?

It might have something to do with him being a foreigner. Just speculating.

Actually, according to some article on this thread, he served just shy of a few days of the 19 years. Just a few days.

I'm sorry if Germany's law is much tighter on the 'threat to society'. He didn't qualify, served his time (a few days short but who cares if you have been there for 19 years already), qualified for parole, walked out.

Move on.

I see this as a good example of well functioning justice system. No death senteces, long prison terms for serious offenders and extremelly tight qualification for 'until natural death'.

I suspect. I suppose if a foreigner was released from a US prison they would deport him first, as well.

There is something I don't understand here.

Some of you complain bitterly when Clinton's blow job and subsequent lie is brought up in relationship to the current administration.

Yet here we are talking about what the US has or has not done in the past as if it somehow has bearing on this.

All I'm saying is that everyone (myself included) ought to try to be consistent.

As to this issue, I am also stunned that somehow this is being seen as anything other than a crime by anyone. Yes, I know that political realities make things not black and white, but maybe that's my own miopic vision.

I personally am willing to cut Bush *some* slack because I think that our anti-terrorist efforts require it.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

(thinking on the fly)


Is Germany engaged in what we are doing here? Using someone to further their political interests?

Are our left leaning members supporting that while they decry when Bush does it?

Are our right leaning members decrying it while they support Bush in it?


Interesting.......

Not sure where you are going here Lebell but I'm tired, the heat is broken in my office, so I'm cold, and I need to think of xmas presents for the wife ASAP. In other words my brain is on 50% power.

So what do you mean by 'using someone to further their political interests?' that would equate to Germany releasing a known, convicted murderer, terrorist?

Gee makes me wonder what those other 20% of germans did that makes them serve a true life sentence eh?

life in prison equals life in prison...although I guess not in Germany

If you're sentenced to life in prison with possibility of parole after 25 years in the US, it's posible that person will be free after 25 years. What's with the Germany bashing?

gee, a guy convicted for a crime serves his sentence and is paroled.
the americans want him extrdicted to face double jeporady and the rules in germany prohibit it.
because extradition is a complicated thing.
but then i doubt seriously that the americans would extradict someone to face retrial for the same crime in another country on the same grounds.

obviously the problem is due process.
so it seems that conservatives who cannot admit any problems with the conduct of the bush squad are now coming out in opposition to due process in general.
way to go.
great position to defend, folks.

what a goofy thread.

They deported Lucky Luciano. Meyer Lansky was sent out of the country and he became the first Jew to not be welcomed into Isreal. He eventually truly became a man without a country when he died.

So was Hamadi paroled or was he deported? IF he's paroled he should still be in Germany. If he was deported we should stop saying he was paroled.

Why not?
We've been doing it for roughly...what? 90 some odd years now?
Granted, of course, that some of it...well, they had coming. What with that whole WWI, and WWII thing, you understandand.
Still, though, it's fun, and easy to do.

As a foreigner in Germany it maybe both. Their definition of parole maybe different than ours.... I have no idea. They may have paroled him and told him to leave their country, because they felt that would be best for their country.

I don't live there, I really don't know.

I am amazed at the people saying "well he killed a US serviceman and...." yeah, and our own men have killed gays, blacks, hispanics and so on in their companies and have gotten off for less, in our country's history.

I don't know anything about this case, as I have a feeling 99% of the people on here didn't know anything about it either until now, nor am I going to lose sleep over it.

To me it is cut and dry..... Germany is a sovereign nation, and therefore can do whatever they believe is in their best national interest.

Nowhere in my life contract with my God does it state I have the right or the power to dictate what a foreign country wishes to do. I would venture to say noone here, in government or anywhere else in the US, not of German citizenry , has that clause in their life contract either.

After much discussion as to where the capital of the new Germany should be -- Bonn or Berlin -- a compromise was struck: Paris.

What ever happened to hating France?
/end threadjack

Germany has the right to do what it thinks is in its best interest and we have the right to discuss and even criticize those actions.
I don't know the details of this case, but I find it hard to believe that this guy is no longer a threat. Personally, I'm not a fan of parole except in exceptional cases.
Even if the release of this prisoner is not related to the hostage release, it's very likely that Germany made some other form of concession or ransom payment in order to reach a deal. I'm not sure such deals are in the best interest of anyone other than the hostage and the terrorists.

Yup.

I'd be a lot more concerned about the hundred or so rapists and murderers that get paroled every month WITHIN YOUR OWN COUNTRY before you start moaning about how other people run their jails.

Aren't there enough killers on the loose within each of our nations before we start whining about other nation's justice systems?

he was jailed for the hijacking, right?

now lets try him for the murder

Reading the article helps.

It is germany, not surprised.

lebell, the point of bringing up Reagan's actions was that this kind dealing has pretty strong parallels. this isn't some abstract comparison of moral levels, but a direct and substantive connection.

if we believe it is our right to destablize other nations for our benifit, then Germany has the same right. No?

My comment as a Eurpean with a little experience of Germany is to say that their penal code clearly is imperfect (as are all such codes) but in general they have a vastly lower murder rate than the US, and therefore maybe, just maybe, their choice to give prisoners parole and not execute people makes something in their society work better.

It's worth consideration that the US has now got to it's 1,000th execution in the current cycle and has one of the highest (if not THE highest) murder rate of any "developed" country.

Which country has the tougher sentences?

Which country has the higher murder rate?

Taking out gang on gang voilence the US has a very low murder rate, and a lower crime rate than most of Europe.

But reguardless its apples in the oranges here.

"Taking out gang on gang voilence the US has a very low murder rate"

After you subtract meth use from drug statistics in many places hardly any people are getting high.

The point of butchering the statistic in that way would be what?

I'm not clear why removing gang on gang violence has any bearing here... violence is violence... murder rate is murder rate. The gang violence is part of the system that is America... just because it doesn't show the same sorts of numbers in other countries doesn't mean apples and oranges it just means the US has bigger fruit.

:hmm: if you ignore germany more violent parts of soceity, germany also has a pretty low crime rate. but what is the point?