Canada: Canadian Elelction - 2006
 

As you all know the Liberal minority government fell last night to a non-confidence vote.

The PM is off to the Govenor General's residence this morning to disolve the Parliament and call the election.

This is the thread where we can chat about all the issues and the progress of the parties...


Are we just going to see more of the same or will see something new. Interestingly it looks like we will have one of the longest campaigns in 25 years... EDIT: Election Day was just announced: JANUARY 23, 2006).
A lot can change in the next couple months...


My best case scenario is a minority Government with the NDP holding a significant balance of power. I don't see the Liberals and the Conservatives working well together on most things but either can work with the NDP to created a working minority government.

I just starting following this on CNN and BBC in the last couple days. I know very little about Canadian politics other than the fact that unemployment is at a 30 year and there is an economic budget surplus.

I do know the conservative party in Canada is trying to build bridges with the Cons in the US. They seem to be working from a similar playbook as well. Any education you guys up north can offer on this would be appreciated.

Sho Nuff: Have you got a few days? :lol:

It's a pretty broad topic. Perhaps if you had some specific questions, it might be easier.

I foresee a Liberal minority with the Libs take a few more seats than last time, the Conservatives coming in second, the Bloc third and NDP 4th. ONly one independant will win a seat this time. No Greens either, alas, not yet.

The Tories will then replace Harper with someone with character and charisma like Peter McKay or Bernard Lord, in time for the next election 18 months hence.

I further predict Belinda Stronach and I will become an item, resulting in my untimely death at the hands of my wife.

:lol:

I think Belinda might have a lot of time on her hands after the election... I don't think she's going back to Ottawa (unless it's on your arm).

The timing of the election with depend entirely upon how strong the NDP are... They really didn't have enough seats to carry the vote this time. If they are convincingly in the house I can't see Layton bringing down the government again... he's too much of a let's get something done type of guy (hence all the deal making... it's what he was like in Toronto municipal government as well).

This short lived governement is an anomoly in Canadian politics. No other minority government has been brought down like this (a non-confidence motion as opposed to being defeated over a budget or something like that).

I really think Martin is making a mountain out a molehill with the whole campaign over the holidays thing he keeps going on about... Does anyone but the politicians really care? Let's talk about something important.

ya I don't care when the election is held. Bring it on. the only problem is, I don't know who to vote for. Policy wise, I would vote for the PCs, if they were in the federal arena, perhaps with Martin or Tory or McKay at the helm. (notice that I don't distinguish between Liberal or PC).

I heard that Olivia Chow was going to run in this election. Will she finally stop going back to city counsellor if this bid doesn't go through???

She is announced that she will resign her seat this time and she will not return to city politics. I am pretty sure she wants to be with her husband (Jack Layton), regardless of whether she wins the election or not.

I'd love to see Layton leading the NDP's in a balance of power position. I like Layton and I'm worried that if the Conservatives have their way we're going to see a lot of nasty things happening such as that two tier health care everybody's against and stronger ties with the Americans at any cost (does anybody else see the softwood dispute being completely swept under the rug?)

What I'm more worried about is the Bloc. They had a strong showing at the last election and with Liberal support falling across the country I could definitely see the gaining ground on former federalist ridings in Quebec. You think things are shaky now, just wait until Quebec makes another bid for sovereignty.

The Bloc is going to get more seats in Quebec... I think that is a given. The Liberals really fucked themselves in Quebec.

This will be one of the main reasons there won't be a Majority government.

Like Sho Nuff, I'm facinated by what is going on but lack an understanding of the parliment system. What is *really* astonishing is that you folks can discuss the possibilities without the personal rancor that your southern neighbors resort to. That is worth a front row seat by itself. :)

For Elphaba, Sho Nuff and others interested, wikipedia has a great article on the parliament of Canada as well as the issues at hand.

I don't think that the Liberals are going to win anymore seats than last time.

Think about it
If people are thinking about CHANGING your vote, after the last 18mths how many do you think are thinking about changing their Tory, NDP, Green, or
Bloc votes to Liberal votes. Probably not many.

The more likely situation is that the people that are considering CHANGING their vote are people who voted Liberal last time.

Consider this: Is there any reason why people who voted Tory, NDP, Green, or Bloc should be unhappy with thier decision? maybe a few but most voted for those parties because that is who they vote for. But for those that voted Liberal, are there any reasons why they might consider not voting liberal again? You bet.

I am not saying they they are right or wrong.I am just saying that people who change their mind about who they vote for are doing so becuase they want change.

Furthermore, the Liberals are likely to lose a few more seats in Quebec to the Bloc.

We will proably see the following:
- Liberals down a few (I figure close to 10, there are at least 5 seats at risk in Quebec)
- Block up a few
- Tories up one or two (they will probably make it over 100)
- NDP even

You are right, until one of the other major parties can start appealing to Quebecers again we are likely to be in Minority mode for a long time. Either that or the Liberals or Tories will have to bring on sombody spectacular (appealing to both Liberals and Conservatives) to lead in order to bump them over the 154 seat level. With Martin and Harper still in place we will be here for a while.

I agree with you when you say Harper but not Martin. He does appeal to BOTH Conservatives (of the PC sort) and Liberals.

The adscam mess isn't his, he just has to bear the brunt of the nations ire about it...


I think without the pall of adscam hanging over the last election, Martin would have cruised to a majority. As for this election, the scandal has been further exposed and confirmed with finality.

Two things I was thinking about over lunch:

1) Voter in BC and Ontario are in such a hurry to NOT vote Liberal that they split the vote between C and NDP and we end up with a Liberal majority...

2) Isn't it amazing that our government fell last night... and people aren't dying in the streets? Think about it for a moment.

thoughts from the east coast:

1) I'm in agreement that the Liberals will lose seats in Quebec (to the Bloc), but also figure they'll lose some others to retiring members (of which there were more than a handful standing last night).

2) The NDP, who really didn't have much to fear in supporting the motion, will remain the balance of power/swing vote, but will be a bigger target for Gilles and his garçons et filles.

3) I heard a great Rick Mercer rant about how the "winter election campaign" is really about 25 minutes of hardship for the electorate. It should come as no surprise that the biggest complainers are those who'll be donning the toques and galoshes.

4) and this is just for fun: From today's Halifax Chronicle Herald:

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/toons/Brucex29.jpg

I heard a make a big mistake yesterday in her announcement - she blamed people "new to her riding" for defeat last time because they were ignorant of her wonderful work.

Yeah, like they're gonna vote for you now, after you just told them they were ignorant!

She says she will quit municipal politics for good this time. Somehow I doubt it.

I see them maybe losing one or two Quebec seats but no more than that - the choice in Quebec is Liberal or Bloc - and there's not a lot of switching between them.

I think the NDP will lose seats to the Liberals, perhaps several. And the Liberals can pick up from former independent ridings also.

highthief - I disagree re: Quebec. Or rather I agree, but those one or two seats are going to be crucial. My guess is that the Bloc and NDP will pick up seats, with the Bloc gaining ground in Quebec and NDP in Ontario. The West is still the same conservative bastion it always was according to what I've seen, which leaves me to wonder what's going to happen in the maritimes. That's the only region I don't really know about. My guesswork goes more towards a Conservative minority or possibly Liberal. It'll be one or the other but either way I suspect a dead heat, with only a handful of seats' difference between the two parties. That'll leave either the Bloc or NDP with the balance of power. Judging by polls and the current distribution of seats I'd have to put it to the Bloc but if we see any Green or independent candidates coming back to Parliament Hill things could get really interesting.

Current distribution is as follows :

Liberals - 133 seats
Tories - 98 seats
Bloc - 53 seats
NDP - 18 seats
Indie - 4 seats

With two vacant. My predictions would go somewhere to the following :

Liberals - 105 seats
Tories - 100 seats
Bloc - 56 seats
NDP - 47 seats

With a small margin of error allowing for independents and a bit of leeway between the Tories and the Libs. The dynamic this creates is really interesting, because if some independents manage to grab enough seats to swing between the Bloc and NDP we could see a split, with Tories and Bloc working together on one side, NDP and Libs on the other and the independents holding the real balance of power. Naturally the independents aren't going to be unified so that makes things more than a little unpredictable. Of course, we could also see the Bloc, NDP and Tories all gain up on the Libs something like this past government, which just creates an unstable dynamic again and means we'll be having this discussion all over again in a year or so.

And that still doesn't take into account a possible bid for independence in Quebec. If the soverigntists gain much more ground there it could be a very real possibility and losing Quebec, needless to say, would seriously jeopardize our economy.

Current distribution is as follows :

Liberals - 133 seats
Tories - 98 seats
Bloc - 53 seats
NDP - 18 seats
Indie - 4 seats

With two vacant. My predictions would go somewhere to the following :

Liberals - 137 seats
Tories - 100 seats
Bloc - 55 seats
NDP - 15 seats
Independant - 1 seat


Not that much change, as you can see. I think you are the victim of overly wishful thinking to imagine the NDP has a snowbal's chance of getting a sniff of 47 seats. They simply won't take any away from the Liberals. The only ones who can take any # of SUBSTANTIAL seats away from the Liberals are the Conservatives, in virtually any scenario you can imagine.

The Liberals are what the country actually wants - fiscally intelligent managers with liberal social policies with an excellent track record of managing the economy. Some voters are tired of the same party just on principle, and that is the Liberal's main weakness outside of Quebec.

Toss the Liberals and let's have a C minority. The C's won't be able to push thier more right wing agenda, but we can at least get a taste of what they have to offer. The thought of the NDP in power scares me (went through 10 years of them here in BC).

Sadly, I think Ont will vote Liberal again...hey what can I say, they're inbred out that way.... Charlatan said they were ;)

I am pumped for this election. I don't belong to any party or anything but I love the chance and opportunity to talk politics with friends and coworkers. Unfortunately unless there's an election, people round here don't seem keen in talking aobut issues and ideas.
On a personal note, I think that the Conservatives will take a minority government, with the Liberals just shy 4 or 5 seats. The bloc will pick up the rest and possible the NDP will drop a couple. Normally I would like to see the Conservatives in power, I'm not sure how they will handle a powerful Bloc segment though. I'll guess we'll see!

As for Belinda... she pissed me off when she crossed (loved watching her leave, hehe), I believe she would be an awesome leader for the Conservatives, quite possibly the only female candidate for Prime Ministry worth persuing. Just my thoughts.

Thanks, Martian. :icare:

Don't count out the Green Party just yet. They have a very solid platform...

Here's a good site for you. The guy does a great job providing details about Canada's government, as well as various other aspects of Canadian life. Plus his cartoons are kickass!

I just can't see the Libs picking up more seats. I think public opinion of them has dropped pretty drastically and the polls seem to support this. Ipsos-Reid as of this morning put Liberals and Conservatives neck and neck (31% of voter support each, +/-2) with the NDP and Bloc dividing the remainder between them. Every other poll actually shows a stronger voter support for NDP. Now granted that's popular vote and subject to change, but I could really see things shaking up in a big way.

EDIT - And remember, highthief, that there's a huge segment of the public who don't see any good coming out of the Tories or the Liberals. For those in Quebec that leaves the Bloc as the way to go, but for Ontario and the rest of the nation the only real alternative will be the New Democrats. Add into that that Jack Layton has (in my opinion) shown quite a bit of charisma so far and I can really see them picking up a lot of support here.

Hey, Martian, wanna place a friendly wager on who gets closer to the actual result?

Something like the loser has to have a phrase of the winner's choice (nothing too embarassing) in their sig for a month? What's your favourite hockey team?

Which is exactly what the polls said the last time there was an election, right before Martin walked away with a minority government, and Stephen Harper was left to sulk in his Cheerios.

Polls are nothing but shot-in-the-dark statistics, and give the media something to talk about during elections. In the end, there is only one poll that really matters.

Very true Quadratron... the other thing to remember is that we are in very early days. Not only do we have about two months until the election we also have a big break in the campaign rhetoric... you can bet things will be rather quiet in the week or so of Christmas.

Plenty can happen during this time.

Well its nice to see Harper got that whole uncomfortable Gay Marraige bit outta the closet early. Don't WE all feel better now.

Go Rhino Party? Yay?

I long for the day when Doug Henning jumps out of his grave riding a rainbow, and rescues us all with meditation and Yoga :D

Oh man, he'll be riding his purple unicorn and chanting peace and liberty to all!

THIS is the face of freedom, people. Behold and rejoice!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f2/Henning.jpg

And it's not just in Canada, folks!
For those who need to be enlightened...

Here is a link to the Gay Marriage story: LINK


I can't believe Harper is playing this card. Big mistake. This will kill him in Ontario and anything like a Progressive Conservative vote that still exists out there...

Nothing like living up to what the Liberals are saying about him and his Social Conservative agenda... at least it isn't a secret agenda. ;)


Harper is never going to be PM.

I dunno, some people may buy into the whole "Free Vote", and this gets the issue out in the open NOW, rather than later. People have short memories and this could be a dead issue come time to vote, if its outta the way now.

Now I'm no fan of Harper and he's not getting my vote either way, but it may not have been a bad move to get this out of the closet now.

He got it out there... points for not hiding things. But, this will let everyone else paint him with the anti-Gay brush and the anti-Charter of Rights and Freedoms brush (ie social conservative).

The whole free vote thing is a bit of a bugaboo.

You're on!

Now, in the spirit of the agreement, I think we're going to need a neutral third party to judge who the winner is come election time - just to avoid any arguing. If you're up to it Charlatan, I'd say it looks to me like you're the man for the job.

I debated laying out some guidelines re: sportsmanship but decided against it, I think we're above that sort of thing. However, if you're in the GTA one thing I'd like to suggest is that the winner buys the loser a pint, just to show no hard feelings.

Other than that, you have yourself a deal.

And my favourite team is of course the blue and white, followed by the Red Wings and the Sens. Why do you ask?

I'm up to it if highthief will accept me as a "neutral judge".

I've copied down your predictions and will keep them handy until the election.

Well, you said it yourself. It's still early in the election, and there's no telling how this issue will affect the CPC. I really think this election is for Stephen Harper to lose, but once again, he's coming out too right-winged for the likes of Ontario and Quebec. If he wants to start making some headway into these ridings, he's going to have to stop bowing down to his Reformer past.

Because I'd suggest that when I win, you can have a "Go Habs Go!" signature for a month, and if the stars fall from heaven and I lose, well, after baby Jesus stops weeping, I'll put a "Go Leafs Go!" line in my sig!

And despite Charlatan's evident communist tendencies, I accept him as neutral arbiter.

;)

I would suggest using some kind of percentage deviation to determine the victor.

highthief, that is entirely acceptable. I'll even find you a logo to go with the chant, if you want it. Y'know, so it's not just Go Leafs Go! in your sig.

And I agree re: percentage deviation. My recommendation is as follows : since we have the same number for the Tories and are off by all of 1 seat for the Bloc, why not take them entirely out of the equation? That way we've got Libs and NDP, where you and I differ the most. Average the deviation of the two and the one who has the closest predictions wins. In the unlikely event of a tie, we'll both promote the other's club for a month, just for the hell of it.

Any objections?

This commie already has a spreadsheet drafted... just need to plug in the numbers.

the Nordiques are gone!!!

:crazy: :lol:



By the way, did anybody catch the Daily Show last night? Hilarious segment on the election. to quote: "The real shock of the Canadian laundering scandal is that somewhere a liberal party is in power."

Stewart also made the Canadian Correspondant say 'eh' and 'aboot'

the clip is online at: http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/t...es/index.jhtml

Whther you like or dislike Harper I am sure that a good portion of the people working for him are at least smart (you can assume that of any of the party leaders).

So their logic is probably the following:
- We can't hide from these issues, if we don't bring it up, the other parties will. Let's not be defensive about it, let's go on the offense.
- In either case we either tell the truth about what we think or lie.
- If we have decided that we are not going to lie, then the best option is for these issues to at least be under our control.
Hence: Bring it up first under circumstances of our choosing instead of reating to an accusation.

Here is the direct link. It is pretty funny.
I believe that it will show you a commercial first.

Sticky... I understand that. I just forgot that that issue was even an issue anymore.

Oddly, I was starting to warm to the guy (I know! How odd.). This just reminded me why I don't like him.


This is issue is a damned if you do damned if you don't. If he didn't bring it up, he is hiding something. If he does bring it up, he's a social conservative.

I am just glad that the situation is interesting.
Since the begining of the 90's the only thing exciting about Canadian (intra) politics was:
- Jean Chretien getting pied
- Aline Chretien scaring off an intruder that the RCMP and CSIS allowed to get into the Prime Minister's residence while Jean cried in the corner.

You don't think it's funny that Jean Charest looks like a cross between Groucho and Harpo Marx?

Alrighty then. Liberals versus NDP it is, sirrah!

Charlatan, you are hereby appointed head zebra for this contest!

I think the Bloc is going to do surprisingly unwell.

Quebec is very fickle. I remember before the last provincial election, everyone was saying that Mario Dumont was going to be the next premier and voila, Charest takes it.

If the liberals were smart, they would concentrate on mending fences in Quebec.

I think that the voters of Quebec might be swayed back to the liberal fold at the expense of the bloc.

The Bloc will win a few more seats here then last time.
Quebec will not vote Liberal aside from the ridings that are already Liberal.
It is just the way that it is.
It may happen the way you explain at some point in the future but it will definately not happen so close after all this stuff about the sponsorship scandal cam out and the Gomery report was released.

It's funny, the polls are suggesting that the Bloc could lose seats in Quebec. My gut tells me that the Bloc will gain seats but it would be facinating to see them lose seats, especially in the face of mounting support for the new PQ leader.

It looks like Seperatism will be the big spectre of this election (as opposed to the Conservatives "hidden agenda"). Martin need only ask this question, "who would you rather see in power if there is another referendum, the Liberals or the Conservatives?"

I know, it's a tough question. But how would you answer it?

Looks like the Tories just upped the ante

GST Reduction to 5% over 5 years
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...ampaign_051201

GST reduction while it might not be the right thing in terms of paying down the debt, sure looks sexy and will score them some points.

Nice to see Harper is getting his platform and issues out there rather than just depending on negative campaigning.

It's a good ploy. Not sure the government can eliminate the GST, cut other personal and corporate taxes AND cut the national debt, but it will attract some voters and for the first time forces Martin into a more defensive posture.

You know it's funny. I hate Harper and the Conservatives, but he said stuff I wanted to hear on the whole issue of Quebec Seperatism.
Linky Linky

Call me naive, and that would be a valid arguement. But that IS what I want to hear. I don't want another referendum, I want to try to address the concerns of Quebecois and deal with issues like adults.

Unfortunately, it is up the Quebec government if they want another referendum, not Steven Harper.

I haven't weighed in here yet because once the excitment of the non-confidence vote wore off, I quickly tired of the overwhelming media punditry wars. What a non-starter the debate over election timing has turned out to be. Eeesh.

Anyways, I think the campaign got interesting today when Stephen Harper made a promise to immediately reduce the GST (federal sales tax) by 1%, followed by another 1% within 5 years if elected. This was a brilliant move on the part of the Conservatives.

EVERYONE hates the GST, the Liberals previously broke their promise to abolish it, and perhaps most importantly, it's not a radical suggestion. It also pulled attention from Harper's depressing remarks about same sex marriage legislation.

If the Conservatives play the rest of their campaign this smart, focusing on reasonable promises with broad appeal, I believe the Liberals are going to lose a lot more seats than we might have thought.

So the talk this week is of child care. On one hand, I like Harper's "here's 1200 dollars, spend it as you will (be it on daycare or staying at home)". But I prefer the concept of a national or provincial daycare system that the Liberals espouse (Quebec has daycare that costs about 7 bucks a day. I currently pay about 70 dollars a day in Toronto). No idea what Layton is promoting.

I think the idea of a national daycare that the Liberals are promoting is a good idea...

While I can see where Harper is coming from, the reality is that $1200 doesn't even begin to cover my childcare costs (currently at just about $700/month).


What I find interesting so far is that Harper seems to really be making an effort this election. He is actually running a campaign based on policy and more importantly the press is getting his message out there. Interesting that his numbers have continued to drop despite this...

Yeah, I wonder if our cynical take on politicians has reached some sort of critical mass. I hear "These guys have the better promises, but they won't come through with them." a lot.

I like the idea of a national day care plan better than a meagre $100 a month, but the Liberal's reputation for managing these national programs is pretty weak to say the least.

Has anyone seen the Conservatives' new tv spot on Crime? It's shot in the style of a news anchor interview, complete with fake word on the street clips and painful close-ups of Stephen Harper at the desk. It's really cheap looking and I think a little embarrassing.

$700 a month? Damn, I pay 1100 a month for 4 days a week. It's a great daycare, but damn...

Wow! That is some steep daycare. What is the child to teacher ratio? It must be low.

They have a series of these spots. I saw one that was around political corruption and his plan to bring in the accountability act.

The spots are awful. They look incredibly amateurish (the lighting is bad, the set up is bad, the dialogue is wooden) and worst of all they spots play up the weakest part of the Conservative party... Harper himself.

He doesn't look trustworthy... I mean, I hate to lower our choice of political leader to something so shallow but there it is. He's kind of creepy looking and the bad lighting of these spots does nothing to alleviate that.

As she is only 13 months old, it is 3-1. When she hits 18 months, it goes to 5-1 and the cost goes down, and when she is (I think 30 or 36 months) it drops again to 8-1 and again, costs drop.

13 months... that explains it. Yes, babies are way more expensive. My daughter is three years so, she is with them all day (rather than in school) and gets a lunch provided. Her fees will drop next year when she enters JK and drop again when she enters Grade one.

We managed to avoid having to pay for daycare when she was a baby. My wife stayed home and she also used her parents for the days she had to take meetings or go to class.

I'm kind of excited about the election. It'll be my first time voting, and I've been trying to educate myself for a year or two now.

After doing a lot of research, I will be voting Green. I don't really excpect them to take power or anything (especially with the media shutting them out almost entirely) but I would like to make sure they get enough votes to get a seat or two.

I have no predictions really. I think the Liberals will continue with their minority government, and both the Conservatives and the NDP will get more seats than they have now. I'd love it if Green somehow managed to work their way into visibility though.

My riding is NDP, and I don't see any reason for it to change. Voted NDP last time, will be voting NDP this time.

Did anyone else see how the debate questions for the upcoming debate next friday will all be submitted by regular canadians? I sent in my question, but I seriously doubt it will get chosen.

This was my Q:

"As a student, I face the reality of increasing tuition fees every time I register for classes. The Canadian university tuition fees for 2003-04 have gone up 7.4 percent, the highest increase in four years, outpacing the rate of inflation. Do you have any plans for cooperation with Provincial governments to bring the rate of increase back down to reasonable levels?"

Welcome to the voting world.

Green is often viewed as a 'snub' vote, in that people will vote for the Green Party to avoid voting for any of the other candidates. They have been gaining legitimacy in recent years, but I wouldn't expect them to take any seats this time around; there's just not enough people who take them seriously yet. Watch for them in the pop vote, though.

This is what I like to refer to as a 'head in the sand policy'. The fact of the matter is that there may well be another referendum whether mr. Harper wants to address it or not. I'd rather see someone plan ahead for that than just say 'this isn't happening'.

My riding (Beaches/East York) is Liberal, but Churly is running as an NDP candidate, and it is an NDP riding provincially. So it should be an interesting race. As far as daycare goes, too little too late. My kids are all over 6 yrs old, and the real expenses are kicking in (university anyone?). Actually my wife retired to stay home and be with the kids when they were old enough to bring home schoolwork.

So I would be really really really interested in income splitting strategies. That and tuition costs are my biggest issues. Oh and head tax compensation. three things.

-- what about a ruthless devotion to the Pope??

-- Shut up!

Leto... Marylin Churley has been my provincial representative for years. I've met her quite a few times and have always found her to be good person and a good representative. She is one of the people I am hoping wins (so I can get my NDP number up to for the betting thread 22).

There may well be another referendum, yes. But the only discussion we hear is contingency for when it occurs, and NOT what we are trying to do to bridge the divide and AVOID a referendum. That's HARDLY head in the sand, thats optimism and wanting to work with fellow Canadians to be sure we all feel welcome in this country.

Look at Jack Layton's press conference this morning. It effectively degenerated into "will he honor the supreme court's ruling on seperation guidelines when a referendum occured". And this was his unity/accountability policy unveiling.I quote form his speech, his accountability policy

From NDP.ca When you’re a federal politician, doing what’s right in the province of Quebec includes making a basic commitment to respect. Respect for the unique culture and linguistic character of this province. Respect for its autonomy and jurisdiction. Respect for the values that the people of Quebec hold dear – and in common with Canadians across this country.

<snippity snip>

Then we need to build on priorities we all have in common - I think, beginning with a shared commitment to look after our seniors, ensure good education for our children, protect health care, and defend the environment.


Now granted, I went to www.conservative.ca and at a cursory glance could find NO unity policy, but from that onepress conference I heard from Steven Harper something I hadn't heard a politician say in awhile. Let's NOT focus on the referendum, let's focus on keeping the country together"

You can call it Head in the Sand all you like, but I prefer to consider it as focusing on solutions instead of problems. I'm not defending Harper in the least, everyone knows I'm as far from a Conservative booster as you can get. But we need more people working on keeping the country together and less preparing for how it will fall apart.

The Grits made a smart with their "handgun ban". People who own guns weren't voting Liberal anyway, due to the gun registry, so they won't lose significant voters with this move, but they will take votes away from the NDP and Bloc, both of whom would be for increased gun laws.

That's really bizarre. I thought that Kim Campbell kicked off the Gun Registry.

Yeah, post Montreal massacre is what got gun control on the front burner again in the early 90s, but twas the Liberals who actually brought it in, i think, and certainly were the ones who spent a billion or two on the project.

Kim Campbell, as Justice Minister enacted some very tough gun control laws. When she was running for office (as the newly minted PM) the Liberals were looking for a way to make themselves look good in the face of her rather popular laws.

They just made like the new laws hadn't done anything and came up with the idea of a gun registry... something that on an emotional level makes sense but in reality is sadly a waste of money.

The real answer is tougher laws on those who use guns during ciminal acts combined with the laws Campbell already put in place (ie laws around the transportation, storage, purchase and licensing of users).

Given the pourous nature of our border there is little we can do to stop the importation of illegal weapons. We just need to make it harsher for those found using them incorrectly.

being an IT project manager, and a consultant with the Big 5 for over 10 yrs (now no longer thank god) I can assure you that the billion or two was probably eaten up in fees to one of those firms. Having seen the billling rates, (discounted from over $400/hr for mid level developers to about $200/hr ) for projects in the Ontario Gov't - MBS & finance or for the hydro, I can see how those costs can ratchet up. Especially if there is little control over requirements!!!

I hope you Conservatives enjoy your beer and popcorn.

The Beer and Popcorn comment was a stupid thing to say. The Conservatives now get to crow that the Liberals don't trust Canadians to spend their own money...

The reality is, the Liberals are saying they will start a national daycare system that will benefit everyone while the Conservatives are taking the approach of giving everyone $1200 and letting them sort it out.

As was noted above, $1200 doesn't pay for shit when it comes to childcare... spit in the bucket doesn't begin to desribe how little it is.

yup, like I said, too little, too late for my vote. Income splitting? Now that's where I get interested.

I think that there is some intrinsic value to having a parent stay at home, and that there should be a way for single income families to defray the cost through tax savings. Note that I am NOT asking for a handout from the government (e.g. $1200) for each child, just because I have kids. Just a tax break on the single wage earner, by spreading the cost around.

Didn't the Liberals have 12 odd years to impliment their daycare dream? Why is it now being promised yet again? I'm not sure why everyone's childcare should be paid for by the state and I would have rather had $1200 per child at the time. I'd take tax breaks for stay at home parents to encourage one income families over state run day care.

I would prefer a larger rebate on my childcare expenses. Single income homes while they sound great are not a practical option. One cannot afford to live in urban areas with only one income unless you either live in a slum or make enough to live in a mansion.

I am not confident that a national daycare is the solution. I would rather see a growth in not-for-profit daycares associated with Schools or better after school programs for older kids (grade one and up).

Yet another thing to think about when you go line up at the polls. I predict Scope sales will skyrocket after the election, as every Canadian tries to get that nasty taste out of their mouth.

Quebec has a 7 dollar a day provincially run program that seems pretty good.

And yeah, T.O. house prices - $490,000 is now the average price of a detached home anywhere in Toronto, and that includes the crappy neighbourhoods!

What does that poll really mean? Does it mean our politicians are more corrupt? Does it mean we think they are more corrupt? Does it mean other nation's politicians are better at pulling the wool over their electorate's eyes?


Right. It really doesn't mean anything.

I agree that single income homes may not be practical for everyone, but they are for some. Why should people that elect to put their kids in daycare receive government money for doing so when people that choose to stay at home receive nothing? By giving both sets of parents the money to spend as they see fit, it levels the playing field.

Article: "Canadians believe political parties are the most corrupt institution in the country"

It means a sample of Canadians believe politicians are the most corrupt people in Canada.

Read the article again... yes that quote is in the first paragraph but the rest of the article compares different country's views on corruption in their governements.

It is an oddly written article.

I don't follow you. The first part of the article says Canadians don't believe in their politicians. The second part goes on to say we're tied with the Americans, but we're not as cynical as the Israelis. The next part says that Canadians don't believe politicians will get any better. Then it ends with how the survey was conducted.

That doesn't change the fact that, when asked who were the most corrupted people in Canada, most surveyed Canadians said their politicians, which is what the article was alluding to.

Perhaps it's just me... whatever.

Perhaps in the interests of letting things cool down a bit on the election front, you should all cruise over to Rick Mercer's Blog and have a laugh or two at the photoshopped pictures of Martin, Harper, et al. And while you are there make sure you read Paul Martin's Christmas letter to the nation.

Yeah, I didn't really post that because I wanted to argue about the nuances of the article. I was more interested in spurring debate about the state of our political climate, and whether people really believe that all politians are corrupt.

Perhaps if I start it off anew, it might spur some conversation.

*Ahem* Political corruption sucks. Discuss. :D

:lol: no problem.

I think you find it difficult to find anyone (other those who benefit from corruption) that will defend political corruption.

The question is do we see all politicians the same?

Do we see ALL Liberal party politicians as equal in the corruption scandal? Do we see the other parties as being corrupt?

Personally, I think there will always be some form of corruption in government. The key is to what extent will it exist. To me, Gomery is refreshing... perverse as that may sound. It shows that corruption can be discovered and ferreted out.

What scares me more is the sort of corruption that never gets discovered or that is discovered but spun out of existence.

Of course the reverse is also true. A lot of time can be wasted trying to find corruption that doesn't exist. This is usually in an effort to score political points. This is almost as bad a corruption itself.

I'd have to disagree with your assessment on the single income option. My street has a fair number of one income families. Some strategies employed have been to rent out the basement as an apartment, or take in a Homestay student (quite a few of these - they are usually japanese girls living here for half a year or so to learn english. So the homeowner gets around $600/m for them).

My street is a fairly typical older neighbourhood, with a mix of single detached/or semi styled streetcar houses from the 1920's. The cost of a semi is about $400K. Neither a slum nor Forest Hill. I can itemize 8 households on my block who do the single income schtick.

For us, we both worked, and powersaved. Inlaws took care of the kids while they were very young. As soon as we discovered that inlaws were not appropriate homework monitors, we took the financial hit, and my wife retired to stay home. Today, she is volunteering on a field trip for my 8 yo son's class to a downtown green house (at UofT).

I was exagerating... I will admit.

When my son was born we were renting a house in North York. My wife stayed home and opened a daycare so she could stay home and make money. She returned work when we bought our house and moved to Riverdale... had just entered Jr. Kindergarten.

When our daughter was born, my wife was just starting back at school. She both worked and went to school. Her mother looked after our daughter on school days and our son was in daycare. Money was very tight.

We do not have the space in our house to either rent out a room or make a basement apartment... We were lucky that her job permitted her to have the baby with her and that her mother was able to care for the baby while she was at school. We could never have afforded to send both our kids to daycare at the time without both of us working and even then it would have been tight.

I know a few other people who are stay at home in our area but their spouse is pulling in over 150K.

I would still argue that for average income earners (i.e. those who are in the 40 to 50K range) it just isn't a practical option for a parent to stay home.

You know, having watching the french language debate two elections in a row, I've come to a depressing conclusion. It's sad that the most eloquent, well spoken, and PERHAPS intelligent politician in Canada happens to be the leader of the Bloc Quebecois.

If only he could channel those powers for the forces of good :p

I agree... too bad he isn't a Federalist.

More political corruption!!! (well if it benefits me.)

It think one of the best preventions for it in a democracy like ours is actualy having governments that change, rather than the same party for long periods of time + more power with the auditor general and power to actually convict those who engage in corruption. (why has no one gone to jail for adscam yet?)

Give it time... Gomery hasn't finished and the RCMP has only really started their investigation since the release of Gomery 1.

Harper and the NDP
 

I think this might just turn out bad for the Liberals...
I think I suggested earlier in this thread that if Harper were to come out and say he could work with NDP in a minority situation it would bode well for both his party and the Conservatives.

Guess what?

Harper just came out saying he could work with the NDP.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...lDecision2006/

Of course the NDP is still campaigning agianst the Conservative... they have more to loose if they don't. But once the election is done, I see Layton willing to work with whoever is in power to negotiate for the policies he would like to see implimented. He has proven himself time and again, to be an amazing consensus builder (both federally and at the municiple level).

what will it take to make him cross the floor? It's not unheard of.. rather common in Canadian politics.

Debate is tonight. Conservatives have a 9 point lead in the polls. Is that scary?

pluses of Conservative gov't: reduced taxes... northern security, income splitting

minuses; reform agenda at fore-front, Kyoto accord out the window, foreing policy back to Mulroney era toadying to the yanks. abortion rights gone?

My neighbourhood is so staunchly NDP provincially, I am very curious to see how things turn out.