host

Is the popularity of the discussion of an obscure, Canadian political appointee's refusal to swear an oath of office, a sign that even folks here, with an above average interest in things political, are avoiding the effort and the vigilance that it takes to examine and engage in informed discussion of more weighty issues of the day?

An example of this avoidance is that there has been no comment about Michael Scalon's plea agreement with federal prosecutors. He has agreed to make payments of $19.7 million in restitution for fees that he "earned" in a lobbying scheme that involves potenitally numerous elected officials in congress, and he has agreed to cooperate fully with prosecutors. He has been sentenced to up to 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. In exchange for his guilty pleas, and his agreement to cooperate his sentence is suspended until the investigation and other prosectuions have been completed.

There are other facets of this story that and investigation that potentially implicate white house officials, christian coalition founder, Ralph Reed, long time republican tax reduction advocate Grover Norquist. The NY TImes describes this a potentially the largest congressional scandal of the century.

I think that the popularity of the "bible swearing" thread this week, is a symptom of an escapist reaction from real interest in current political events.

My question to fellow members is:

If you who profess an above average interest in politics, are not making the effort to prioritize your information gathering and analysis focus on the most important events of our times, and then discuss them in depth.....

who will?

Ace_O_Spades

Could it be that Tilted Politics could be for something other than simply USA's politics? Encouraging a wide range of debate in spheres outside the USA could help reduce ignorance and promote cohesion between Canada and the USA, and of course, the rest of the world; is this a bad thing?

The Canadian Governor General isn't obscure. She's our Head of State.

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Feh.

fresnelly

I admit this is the first I've heard of the Scalon case. It sounds way more interesting and important than our GG story. I'll be watching for it in the news and thanks for bringing it to our attention.

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

host

I am not objecting to <B>"Encouraging a wide range of debate in spheres outside the USA"</b>.

I am alarmed that the issue is the most popular thread, as far as responses and views, for the last two days.

I mean to provoke no international incident, and I think highly of most things Canadian, and of Canadians.

Perhaps "obscure" was a poor choice of words. The fact is that most here have never heard of the woman, or of the office that she has been appointed to. There are 9-1/2 times as many Americans as there are Canadians, so it should follow that the thread might be...say....half as subscribed by TFP members as a thread about American politics.....is that an unreasonable assumption.

My opionion is that the "bible issue", coupled with the observation that there is no need to study the matter to become informed in advance of participating on that thread, made it a "draw" and a distraction for members here who might be better served by studying the numerous setbacks that the U.S., it's military, it's executive branch, it's debt, it's congressional integrity, it's reputation and it's relations with the rest of the world, has experienced lately. A sign of a climax are the several investigations that are resulting now in the prosecution of prominent political figures.

Charlatan

I don't know host... if you look at the list of people on that thread I'd say:

a) most are Canadian
and
b) many are not regular poster in Politics (for all the usual reasons)

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

host

Maybe I have chosen a poor example to use to make my point.
I think that your observations are valid and it is a positive if any thread here attracts new participants to this politics forum and broadens our horizens.

The core question is where are all of the Americans who are informed of events or who come here to become more informed?

If discussion of and reaction to the Scanlon plea...as an example... is not happening in a place like this forum.... is it taking place...to any signifigant degree at all?

With the volume and content of the political news lately....this Canadian centric story should not be the busiest thread here lately.

It hints of apathy and that is the cause of much of what has gone wrong in the U.S.

BigBen

Host;

The Governor General thread is something that we can DISCUSS. People hop into the thread to see the discussion, they see something that interests them, they reply.

Debate occurs. Constructive debate.

I did not post a long-assed quote from some news source. I posted my opinions and views, and allowed people to see them.

I engaged people. I stated my point.

You are now aware of the frustration that plagues most news reporters: Why in the fuck is the world ignoring the death and destruction that is happening in Africa in favour of what Mariah Carey wore to the American Music Awards?

People should be outraged that humanity would behave like this!

Truth is, it is a nice break from the shit people usually wade through.

Therefore, I propose the following: Go to Tilted Humour and post a joke. People will come to associate your threads to something other than LONG-ASSED american republican news quotes. Your posts will garner more traffic, and your message will spread.

Mix it up a bit! Notice that I clicked on this thread, simply because the title was something I recognized, instead of the usual Host norm:

Attention! Outrage over some-other-thing-in-Washinton D.C.!!! (Insert long-assed news quote)

No you aren't the only one, but if you want to reach people with your message, you have to change your style.

Grandpa always said "If you ain't catchin' fish, change the fuckin' hook son!"

(see what I did there just now? I have you a sound-bite that you will remember and possibly tell your friends over drinks. You will remember this post, Host!)

(See what I did just there? I Rhymed to make my post funny, honey...)

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

host

We have a mess on our hands because people won't take the time and make the effort to learn about and then stay informed about the issues, in their own country, let alone in Africa. or more disturbingly, don't have the curiousity to find out what the issues are.

When you are informed about the issues, it follows that you form opinions. You monitor what your elected officials are up to. They know that you are monitoring them, and that goes a long way to influence them to act as if they are accountable. The incumbant elected officials are now having their actions held up to the light, via recent, more virgorous scrutiny by the press.

These developments should serve as a catalyst for discussion, even if it is just speculation as to who will indicted next, whether prosecutors have a strong case, why Scooter Libby apparently received special treatment when he was arraigned in court, no handcuffs, no "perp walK", what Scanlon was told or shown or threatened with by prosecutors to cause him to give up nearly $20 million without going to trial....etc....etc.

My concern is that none of these developments are prompting discussion here. There are plenty of other places here to tell a joke or to talk about an entertainer's wardrobe.

I'm laying out an observation that "politics" is not "getting done" on the politics forum...not to a degree that is commensurate to the population of the U.S. and to what is at stake.....it's only our future that we're talking about.

Elphaba

A year ago, my biggest bitch was "where in the hell is the msp on such obvious problems within our country." The UK press was routinely two months ahead of ours on every important issue concerning Iraq.

Today the msp is flooding my inbox with "news" that ceased to be "new" long ago, at least for me. I remember being mocked for my news sources, and to repeat the same "news" now won't improve the possibility of a discussion imo. You saw it, yourself, Host. Just referencing/linking old posts in an entirely new discussion gets the topic locked down. I discuss/respond to one of your topics and the post is deleted. I ask why, and am told to take my questions/complaints to pm. That direction turned out to be pointless.

So allow me to ask you a similar question that you are asking the rest of us that frequent the Politics Forum. Why should we pursue the hope of discussion of the most important criminal conspiracy of our times, if our words are erased or censured?

And, yes. I am as mad as hell, and I will be taking Lebell's advice to bring my concerns directly to Hal.

tecoyah

I regret if indeed we seem to be stopping discussion in here....as that id DEFINATELY not the intent....what would be the point. We do try very hard to keep our politics board from becoming the ...uh...inpleasant experince found on virtually all othe politics related forums in Cyberspace. If we tend to Err on the side of caution, and this is unacceptable to the membership then I would definately recommend the site owner become involved to remedy dissatisfaction.
Please understand the Mod staff here does not wish to make this a useless place, and though we are far from perfect.....we do try. Though I am left to wonder at the "Why" of it at times.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

SecretMethod70

I posted a similar statement in the thread Elphaba is addressing, but I will post a statement here as well...

We are able to see summaries of all moderating activity in threads and there have been no posts deleted in the thread. I can't explain WHERE Elphaba's post went, but it didn't disappear due to the actions of any moderator or admin. Please let this be a reminder that if you have a concern over something, especially moderation issues, you should PM one of the other mods/admins rather than post those concerns in threads. If your concern is that you think there has been improper action by a moderator and speaking to that moderator or another one hasn't resolved your concerns, then send the PM to an admin. There is a reason Hal has put us into these positions. Of course, as is seen here, most of the time the truth is not as tantalizing as it may seem to be. Where Elphaba's post went is just as much a mystery to the mods/admins here as it is to the rest of you.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Elphaba

Tecoyah, you have always made every effort to publically warn us of unacceptable comments, and allow the thread to continue if we can get "our poop back in a pile." It is the seemingly arbitrary decisions that are made, without discussion or question, that I object to.

And at the risk of being banned, I have been told that it is only appropriate to complain about how a forum is moderated via "private message." Why isn't it acceptable to air a complaint in the open? If I am being too sensitive or critical to a mod's action or response, then I am confident that my fellow posters in this forum will be quick to tell me so, in spades.

SecretMethod, why do concerns such as mine need to be private? It is an honest question on my part and I ask it with full respect to all of the mods and admins here.

SecretMethod70

To be perfectly frank, concerns like yours ought to be brought up in private because, just as you were quick to make hasty, unsupported assumptions of moderator misconduct, I have four years of experience here telling me that, when such public posts are made, other members tend to make the same assumptions based only on your posts, despite having even LESS evidence of the fact than you do (you, at least, know that you did actually make a post, other members don't even have that knowledge). This is especially true here in Tilted Politics where, according to the range of members who frequent the forum, individual mods are somehow simultaneously biased against liberals AND conservatives (which I can only take to mean the mods are being as even-handed as possible if *everyone* thinks they're being picked on). So now, we have not one, not two, but THREE posts accusing "a mod" of deleting a post of yours with no basis for the assumption other than your post being gone (this IS technology you know, things happen). Making such public posts turns what is ultimately a site error into an ongoing accusation of mod impropriety, stirring up dissent among an unnecessary number of members beyond the one for whom confusion is understandable. Note, however, that I said confusion, not screaming bloody murder and assuming you're being picked on.

Furthermore, this is a fantastic example of why such concerns should be made in private because we have now wasted EIGHT posts and essentially hijacked TWO threads over what amounts to a computer glitch. More often than not, "air[ing] a complaint out in the open" is a waste of your time, our time, and the time of your fellow TFP'ers.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

tecoyah

The use of the PM function for issues is prefered if only because many complaints involve other Members/Moderators, and some of them, if made public would be....embarassing to the parties involved.
Each of your Mods and Administrators has a particular way of dealing with what issues come up, some use the public domain to allow the community to Police itself to an extent (such as myself) while others do not.But for the more sensative dealings a PM is prefered. While we do know the politics board is never going to be Nirvana, it is sometimes required that a bit of leverage is put into play in an attempt to help people fit within the guidelines and rules we try to enforce.
My recommendation, if anyone has issue with Moderation in this board, is to contact an Administrator through PM. Believe it or not....they will respond to both the PM, and the actions that promted it. Remember this place is a community, and we will do what is needed to help it evolve into something better.....much as this issue is in discussion right now.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

BigBen

Hey, Host!



These posts up above will always slow down the traffic and conversation in a thread. It is times like these that you must be extra vigilant and "go that extra mile" to resurrect a dying thread.

Now is the time to get the thread back on track, but you simply can't ask your original question again, for fear of looking like a fucking idiot. I recommend in these situations to attack the original problem from a different direction:

Original Problem: Why don't people pay attention to important issues, but instead pre-occupy themselves with "filler"

Original Direction: Comparing the thread of the Governor General and swearing on a Bible to some news story in the US.

NEW DIRECTION: Can anyone here recall a relevant news story that was buried that really affected them deeply?

BEN: Izzy, a guy I knew in the Army, was killed by a landmine in Bosnia on the same day that OJ Simpson fled from the police. Canadian news media ran the story for about 15 seconds, and then continued with live OJ coverage. I cried like a little girl, but I was also enraged that some guy who played football years ago and killed his wife was taking up so much energy. WHO THE FUCK CARES? IT IS A LOW SPEED CHASE, FOR FUCK SAKES!!! MY FRIEND IS DEAD!!! HE WAS SERVING HIS COUNTRY!!! OJ SIMPSON IS AMERICAN!!!

I was disgusted with the media for a long time after that.

Anyone else?

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

BigBen

The most dangerous creature of all: The Hybrid Liberal-Conservative animal. They think independently and do not blindly follow partisan politics.

Scientists are trying to capture one and study it, but sadly, the Liberalix-Conservitatius will not go peacefully.

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Leto

My first question was, Michael who??? But further reading on has clarrified that, and BigBen, Charl & co. have elucidated quite elegantly on the nature of the GG thread.

I'd just like to throw my lot in by stipulating that politics and public opinion often go hand in hand, and what is one person's obscurity is another's burning issue (to wit: please refer back to my first question in this post).

Additionally, what is wrong with a Canadian centric topic garnering a large amount of traffic in this forum?? Seriously now. Is this not an international forum? Are we not global citizens? I repeat not all burning issues occur in DC.

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You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

raveneye

Host,

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Ghandi

Don't worry about it, we're entering the "then you win" stage. When a new paradigm is approaching, people go through a period of being speechless, for awhile anyway, as they try to come to terms with it.

Cynthetiq

I didn't care the first go round... I don't this time around.

Why? Because someone in a different country not putting his hand on a bible for swearing in doesn't change ANYTHING in my day to day musings of going to work, putting in my 8 hours, and going home to enjoy my own house and home.

When I deviate from those things to go to the theater, hang out with friends, shop, take in a musician at a club... still don't see how it affects me.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

flstf

I think a lot of the reason for the lack of interest is because what you refer to as "the most important events of our times" seems to be just business as usual for our polititians. A simple google search for "congress corruption" brings up over 11 million hits. The surprising thing about this case is that it looks like some of them may actually be caught. I imagine for every one we catch there are many more who are smart enough and have enough connections to get away with it. In short, I guess it is not news to many of us that there is a lot of corruption in national politics. It is probably the norm.

Cynthetiq

Here here!!!

As I travel the world I read the local papers, and the stories don't really change... just the players. It's not Bush, it's the local leader, it's not Scalia, it's the local equivalent.

As I've been reading about the family history I've been reading some of the side newsprints saved by family members. Corruption with politicians is nothing new, even Julius Ceaser recognized that.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Marvelous Marv

These guys?

Tilted Gaming

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

feelgood

Important events of the world has been discussed and debated to death, especially Iraq, the importance of 9/11, etc etc.

Call me where you guys got something new in Politics other than new players

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war