rsl12

Correct me if I'm wrong.

In Jamaica, the Governor General is a ceremonial position with absolutely no power. I assume it's the same in Canada. Technically the governor general represents the reigning monarch in England. As you may know, the reining monarch in England has little power over England itself these days, much less power over commonwealth countries like Canada and Jamaica.

A monarchy, by definition, is a country ruled by a monarch. In most countries (including England, I think) the monarch and his/her family are supposedly distinguished by God for the special purpose of ruling a country.

Since the foundations of royalty are religious, the Governor General I think has a certain obligation to follow form. Though the offense of not swearing on a bible is not as egregious as if a Bishop were to refuse such an oath, the nature of the offense is similar.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Charlatan

So are you suggesting that the GG can only hold the position if they are a Christian?

While the Queen of England is both the Head of State as well as the Commander in Cheif of the Military and Head of the Church of England, I do not believe it is a prerequiste that her representative be of any given religion. The GG is a purely secular position.

It should also be noted that while the position of the GG is largely symbolic the position does have some powers that under the rule of law do hold weight. However, if the GG were to exercise those powers in a way that was deemed overt (i.e. disolving Parliament before being asked to by the government) all hell would break loose and I suspect there would be a strong movement for the sessation of the position.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Ben I do have respect for you, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders as they say, but I have to also say, welcome to my world. My nations values are attacked far more frequently and harshly here weekly then you will have in a year. A president I support is compared to Hitler, and the most irrational claims are made with utmost earnestness. Now I could get angry, but what for? Some I find amusing, some disturbing, some I think need medical treatment, but none are worth getting angry over. I'm sure you can find far harsher critiques of your nations values inside your own nation. I think socialism is a stupid idea which has made Canada weaker, which is a shame, and socialism world wide itself becomes more and more fragile as the takers outnumber the producers. When I see what you guys pay for your 'free' health care, I can only laugh, but I still love you.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

BigBen

Canada is not socialist.

We have representation elected just like the US. I go to the voting booth (actually quite soon, if the media is correct) and send off my Member of Parliament to Ottawa.

If we are socialist, then so are you guys.

Maybe the stumbling block here is our conflicting views on socialism.

Maybe the correct term you are looking for is Liberal? Liberal is not a dirty word here in Canada, where Socialism is.

The social services we provide our population are wide spreading. Please don't infer that as socialism.

Oh, and the correct term is "Universal Health Care", which is another thing that is constantly misquoted by american media. We know that it is far from free. As a matter of fact, Health expenditures account for almost half of the provincial budgets in Canada. The other half is divided between Highways and Education. A tiny bit is left over for the other social services that the province funds. Please don't use the term "Free Healthcare" when referring to Canadian medical services and then put quotes around it like you are scoffing at our ignorances. Only the ignorant refer to it as "Free". I don't.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Charlatan

Don't mess with an economist...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

Bingo. To sit down here and shout 'socialists!' up north as if we are any better or different asks a lot of the listener. We all know what socialism is.
The goods in Canada are not owned collectively by the citizens or by the Canadian government. The Canadian government does not control the Canadian econemy. I hope this is clear.

Canada is a parliamentary representative democracy and is a constitutional monarchy with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state. If anything, Canada is farther from socialism than the United States in that they have a queen as head of state, where as we have a president (although the positions are not entirely different).

pan6467

At the rate the US's healthcare is going we will as taxpayers and as patients be paying out far far more than those with Universal Healthcare. But you know...... some people in the US would rather be greedy and self serving and preach how "Christian" they are and how "Christian" our country needs to be, as they line their pockets with their what was it.....30 pieces of silver..... from the healthcare industry.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

rsl12

I'm saying that the GG, by definition of the role, should pledge allegiance to the royal monarch of England, and, for me at least, it would be hard to pledge allegiance to the Head of the Church of England without being part of that church. Moreover, I find it kind of hypocritical of someone to seek a position like GG, which embodies the strong relations between the Queen and her "subjects" in the "empire", but not want to do this one critical task, which symbolically cements the Vassal to her Queen in the manner of the Queen's choosing. It's rare these days for people to pledge allegiance to other people--it's something left over from feudal days. But for whatever reason, that's what the GG is supposed to do--it's part of tradition, I guess--a tradition that people have embraced. Without the ceremony, without adherence to tradition, the GG basically just another ambassador for the country.

Mind you, I'm kind of playing devil's advocate. In my ideal world, the role of GG would be redefined in the books as being "just another ambassador."

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Charlatan

No one seeks the role of GG. They are asked to take on the role. I don't know what oath they are actually swearing but I would be interested to see if it actually requires them to become a vassal of the Queen.

You might be interested to know that our GG, the Canadian head of state, was not born in Canada. Rather she was born in Hati.

Furthermore, the Head of the Church of England is only one of her titles. The part that actually matters to Canada is that she is our titular head of our state. I would agree with you if the GG was also head of the Anglican Church. But I am sure we already have someone who is the head of the Anglican Church of Canada...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

You said Titular. Hehehehe.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Ustwo

Socialists are elected, communists are not.

Many/most liberals are socialists, but not all socialists are liberals.

And Ben, I scoff at how awful your health care system really is, how obnoxiously expensive, and how American liberals see it as somehow a wonderful thing.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

We know potential when we see it.

Ustwo

Potential for a endless and inefficient money sink, a liberal nirvana if you will.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Elphaba

A recent worldwide study rated the health care of the "first world" countries. Ustwo, you may wish to look into the standing of the US among other nations that you deem inferior.

silent_jay

Ever notice it's only americans who call Canada socialist? Canadians seem to consider ourselves to be a democracy. Seems rather funny to me that they don't call themselves socialists, but I guess the definition changes when it concerns them. Seems they change a lot of definitions when it concerns them.

Scoff at our universal health care all you want it's ours, you don't have to use it, we do. Do you have any first hand experience to back up your claim that it is awful? Or are you just going by what you read?

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

smooth

might as well tell you now, ustwo doesn't need first or second hand knowledge about liberal ideas/programs, he prefers to scoff at them on general principle.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Charlatan

I've said it before and I will say it again, yes there are things that can be fixed in the Canadian healthcare system. But in saying that, I also think that there are very few bureaucratic systems that are perfect.

I have used the system enough to know that it works when you need it.

We may pay more than is neccesary for the system but in the end, everyone is covered. You see, most here don't mind paying a little more in taxes to ensure that everyone is cared for.

Personally I find the greed that is at the basis of the US system quite galling. Fuck the poor. If they can't afford to pay for health insurance, let them die.

The US healthcare system *is* the best in the world if you can afford it. Most can't


As the US sinks further and further into debt, we keep paying off our debt, posting surpluses and running a deficit free budget (this despite having Universal healthcare and a generous social safety net). In the end, what really galls US republicans is that year after year, our little "socialist experiment" continues to succeed.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

American health care, over all, costs more per capita than our Canadian experiment.

You see, what we did was take out all of the private insurance companies. They need to make a profit, and we take all of that slack in the system and put it back into patient care.

Did you know that if the US were to get rid of private insurance, you could afford Universal Health Care tomorrow?

It takes political will to do that. "Everybody is insured. No more paperwork, no more co-pays. No more HMO's."

Instead of bottle-necking demand for health care at the insurance company, we do it at the point of referrals to a specialist and wait lists for surgeries and other medical procedures.

American (insured): Have chest pain. Go to family doctor. Present proper insurance. Get expensive test. Get referred to expensive doctor. Get expensive diagnosis. Get very expensive surgery very quickly. Laugh at other health care systems and how inefficient they are. Eventually die.

American (uninsured): Have chest pain. Save up money to go to family doctor. be informed of cost for expensive test. Walk out of doctor's office, with chest pain. Die much faster than insured person.

Canadian (universal): Have chest pain. Don't worry about a family doctor. Present yourself to emergency room, because they are open all the time. Wait in the waiting room. Have physician see you. Wait for test. Have test done. Test shows nothing wrong. Have expensive test scheduled for 6 weeks later. Get expensive test done eventually. Doctor refers you to a specialist. Make appointment for specialist for 6 weeks. Specialist books surgery for 2 weeks, comments how horrible it is that you had to wait for so long. Have surgery. Cry at how if you were a rich american, you could get the surgery done weeks ago. Eventually die.

We each choose our own path. The Canadian path just treats everyone the same, regardless of their financial status.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

BigBen

And there I go again, getting sucked into the traditional American trap of having EVERY FUCKING CONVERSATION ABOUT CANADA REVOLVE AROUND OUR HEALTH SYSTEM.

We were talking about Bibles and politics, but nooooooooo, we got to bring healthcare into it.

I should have known. I will try harder in the future.

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

pan6467

Actually, Toronto is the cleanest friendliest big city I've ever been to.

You're Stratford Festival is one of the greatest and least expensive Summer vacations one can go on.

Nova Scotia and Newfoundland had some of the most beautiful, nicest, and non materialistic women I saw when I was in the Navy.

Finally, Vancouver is almost as clean as Toronto, and has one of the most beautiful landscapes surrounding it than any city I have ever been to.


OVerall, Canada is a wonderful place with truly great people, excellent cities and wonderful golf courses.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

That's semi true. Most uninsured do wait too long before they do anything because of cost and then when they have to do something, the cost is outrageous because what they had, had gotten worse because they didn't do anything.

But I recently went, I go every year to the ER for my Bronchitis, usually costs $500 but I do that because 97% of doctors here won't see you without insurance and the 3% who do are either just as expensive or so back logged that I wouldn't see them for 3-4 months.

Anyway, when they found the swollen lymph nodes on my chest x-rays, because a doctor cared more about me than the cost, they did everything extremely fast. From the tests to the surgery.

(Had I had insurance, I probably would not have gotten the speedy treatments I had gotten. As they would have waited for approvals and referrals and God forbid if I had gone to the wrong hospital...... so in some ways it is nicer NOT being insured. )

However, it has left me over $20,000 in debt with more bills coming in (as I have yet to recieve the surgeons bill and the bill for everything concerning the surgery.)

So no they didn't let me die, however, I will be in debt for quite sometime.... and the taxpayers and insured are the ones truly paying for mine and others like me who can't pay and make too much (if you can call $11,500, too much) to get any help.

Just trying to set the record straight. As some people here, wrongfully believe you in Canada and other Universal Healthcare countries have to wait on lists as you die, which is not true, people outside the US feel the uninsured die before they get help.... that is not true, we mortgage our futures and destroy our credit but we can get the help, depending on the medical facility. Private hospitals can require insurance only, any hospital accepting Medicare and Medicaid MUST treat anyone presenting and have a program in place to treat the poor, which is ...... government funded and they probably pay 3-4 times what the Canadian or any other Universalized healthcare country's government pays.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Yakk

The GG has lots of power that she never uses, except on request of the PM or parliament.

The Queen has lots of power that she never uses, except on the request of the PM.

The Queen of Canada may be other things that the Queen of Canada. But so far as Canada is concerned, she is just our Queen.

In Canada, if you don't want to swear on a Bible, you can solumnly affirm your oath. The Canadian constitution holds multiculturalism and religious freedom up there with things like the right to vote as important to our society.

Canada is not a christian nation. Canada is a nation of many cultures, religions, and most importantly -- many freedoms.

The US government spends as large a percentage of your national GDP as the Canadian government does. Private expendatures on health care in Canada are 3 times less than the USA. Canada's GDP is less than the USA's.

In what way is Canadian health care obnoxiously expensive?

You do realize that the USA spends more dollars on health care paper work than Canada spends on health care? And not by a small margin.

Find out how much your neighbourhood hospital spends on billing paperwork.

On average, Canadian health care seems to be as efficient or more efficient as US health care, based off infant mortality, life expectancy, survival from heart attacks and cancer and stroke, etc. Last I checked, US system seems to be better for heart attacks, while Canada was better for Cancer.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Marvelous Marv

But we should still burn US soldiers at the stake if they touch the Koran inappropriately, of course.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Cynthetiq

Same reason that PC techs when trying to service Macs used to suggest zapping the PRAM.... because that's all that they know about it and all that they can suggest.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

splck

yay for on topic posts

Of course the bible shouldn't be used for swearing in if she doesn't want to use. Get over it.

__________________
nice line eh?

pan6467

Ah but there is a huge difference, Arab countries are founded on their Muslim religion. our countries (Canada and the US) were not. In fact we were given the right to worship what and how we like.

As for the inappropriate touching of the Koran (I assume you mean the shitting upon it and the reports that soldiers would flush it and such....) is just sinking to their level, while insulting and disrespecting everyone who worships that book, even the innocent.... and that is wrong.

How one can compare not swearing in on a Bible to the attrocities soldiers have committed against the Koran, I guess only makes sense to those who feel the world revolves around the US and have egos that believe the US is never wrong in anything we do.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

hannukah harry

when did we burn a soldier at the stake?

exactly.

and i think others have already appropriately responded to your post.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Marvelous Marv

I have a problem with this statement. The US was founded as a Christian country, with specific statutes that prevented a state-mandated method of worship. That would be why the ten commandments were in courtrooms, "In God We Trust" is on the money, and hundreds of other examples and historical statements exist.

But what that has to do with being able to disrespect the Bible while having to honor the Koran is something only a liberal could come up with.


It might not be how I would do it, but if it was used as a method of interrogation that resulted in our gaining intel, I applaud it. A hypothetical for you: If disrespecting the Koran saved American soldiers' lives, would you support it? Or is that beyond your level of "support for the troops?"

I also shouldn't neglect to point out that some in the US want our government to fund "works of art" like "Piss Christ" and whatever it was that had elephant dung all over a painting of the Virgin Mary. Do you see anything wrong with THAT?

If you really believe the acts soldiers may have committed against the Koran are "atrocities," it is unlikely any past or present member of any military force is going to be interested in discussing much with you. I know that statement made ME lose interest in doing so.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

Yes, unlike your response.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

PM me and I'll explain why it's relevant.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Charlatan

A valid response (not that I agree with it)... BUT you should be equally prepared for the consequences of such actions. Why wouldn't muslims who believe what they do NOT be offended at these actions?

When you push the envelopes of good taste don't be surprised if people are going to be offended. If you then tread into a very hot button issue with the same bad taste, don't be surprised if they are more than offended.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

pan6467

And that is why there have been rulings against religion in government. We are a country that has puritanical roots and we are constantly at odds with ourselves because of such, but our government CANNOT recognize any religion as being the official religion.

And I don't believe we were founded as a "Christian" nation. Maybe the majority of the founding fathers were Christian, but that's it.

"In God we trust" goes only as far as the Cold War. We put it on our money to show those Godless Russian Commies that we were better than they because we had God on our side.

Read your history, you may find we actually had a few Jewish, agnostic and atheist forefathers signing the Dec, of Indep. and in our first Congress to ratify the Constitution. (Not saying but a hint...... if you scratch the itch you WILL find this to be true.)


Where did I say disrespecting the Bible was ok??????

I do have issues that if we call ourselves better than we cannot sink to their level. There are far more ways to get information out. And above all else we should never insult something that will bring even more hatred.

I submit by desecrating the Koran, to "teach these terrorists a lesson" in fact turns even more Muslims against us. This then becomes a state sponsored crusade against a religion.

If our government, through their agents show no respect, and in fact disrespect the Koran, what does that say about our government's feelings towards millions of people's Holiest of books?????????

Is it no wonder we are hated with such passion?

I do not think the NEA (National Endowment for the Arts) which is where the government money comes from, should finance these. However, I believe that when you file you need not detail the work, just be able to prove that there is art, therefore there is no discrimination.

And there is a huge difference between your examples and that of the military desecrating something very holy to others.

One is "art" sponsored only as a financial grant, where government does not have any say and has to maintain a neutrality, because of freedom of expression.

The other is the voice and agents of our government showing they have no respect for others religion. That our government not only endorses these actions but encourages them


Sorry, I am former Navy..... and I am great friends with many other military present and former and most believe we have crossed over a line of good taste, decency and that those soldiers and their superiors are as bad as, if not worse than the terrorists, because of actions such as these.

Again, there are far better ways to gather information than to sink to their level.

Obviously it didn't make you lose interest because you commented.

I have the right to speak out and to believe that shitting on someone's Holy Book is an attrocity and that since the soldiers have not been reprimanded our government must endorse these actions. That infuriates me, because I have nothing against Muslims nor the Koran and those attrocities do not speak for me.

Again, there are far better ways to get intelligence than to disrespect the innocent. All we are doing by allowing these attrocities is showing those Muslims that may have respected us and felt the terrorists were wrong, is to show them that the terrorists may in fact be right.

Put yourself in a neutral Muslim's shoes in Saudi, or Iran or Syria and you hear of thses attrocities committed against your Holy Book..... would that not infuriate you to the point where you may take arms against those who did this action?

That maybe hard for you to do with true neutrality..... think of it this way..... Syria captures a platoon of our men and reports come from the POW camp that these men are forced to have homosexual sex, have pictures of them being tortured, and that the Syrian army in these POW camps have shit, pissed, burned and desecrated the Bible in every way possible? And their sole excuse is that they do this to get information on our troop movements and it is not how they truly feel about the Bible.

Would that not inspire you to take up arms or to support the military more?

That is what we are doing to these people. Exact same thing. These terrorists have so much hate in them, that our "show" against the Koran, probably doesn't faze them so in the end it's not even a good interrogation tool, but more just a show of our government's disrespect for the innocent.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

hannukah harry

well, if you respond to somethingi post, i feel it's appropriate to respond back. and you still haven't answered, when has one of our soldiers been burned at the stake for desicrating the koran? or were you just trying to throw out a strawman?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Ustwo

When I go to Canada, which is at least once a year, I see the same stores, same clothes, same cars, and mostly same sports. The only things which I can say are different are much higher gas prices and your health care system. Outside of a little french here and there and the metric system for highways I wouldn't know I left the US. So that leaves us talking about your health care and higher gas prices

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Leto

Brothers in arms. Amen. (Go Leafs! d'oh!).

By the way, I've noticed the same about the US. Very similar in most aspects to our culture. Do you realize how Canadian you guys really are?

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Ustwo

That was uncalled for eh!

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

rlbond86

Except our speed limits are WAY higher over here.

Yakk

And boy, do American's speed!

I was going 65 -- 10 over the limit -- on an American highway, and I swear most of the Americans where going almost 100!

Why bother having highways with a 55 limit if everyone is going to drive 100 anyhow?

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Ace_O_Spades

because if the limit were 100 everyone would go 150

__________________
Feh.

Mauser

It's the Queen's rules. If the Queen want's a representative to swear on the Bible then they should have to do that to get the job. If you don't want to then don't accept the job.

I'm not religious in any way, but the Queen should have stepped forward and put a stop to this. This is the Gov General, not a manager at Dairy Queen! There is only one Gov, General and normal hiring laws shouldn't apply to it.