Tom DeLay indicted on conspiracy charges - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 09-28-2005, 08:57 AM

IMO, this is just the first of several charges that Tom Delay will ultimately be indicted under. It is a beginning, and remarkable, considering that the "one party rule" that republicans enjoy in the federal government, assures that no investigations take place without the approval of republican legislative committee chairmen.

Does it not seem, from what we are learning, that Delay and many other prominent federal republican politicians have more to be concerned about regarding their relationships with Jack Abramoff, than this criminal charge that Delay now faces in Texas? Is that not cause for concern that president Bush is in a position to circumvent "justice", over the next three years, via executive pardons and by the impact of appointments of political allies to the federal and the SCOTUS bench?

Is Tom Delay being unfairly singled out for prosecution because of his poltical position in congress, or is he a corrupt politician engaged in criminal behavior?
Will their truly be fair and equal justice for those federal office holders convicted of political corruption?

Quote:

http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/.../29trmpac.html
DeLay indicted on conspiracy charges
House majority leader's position in jeopardy.

By Laylan Copelin

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Wednesday, September 28, 2005

A Travis County grand jury today indicted U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay on one count of criminal conspiracy, jeopardizing the Sugar Land Republican's leadership role as the second most powerful Texan in Washington, D.C.

The charge, a state jail felony punishable by up to two years incarceration, stems from his role with his political committee, Texans for a Republican Majority, a now-defunct organization that already had been indicted on charges of illegally using corporate money during the 2002 legislative elections.

The grand jury, however, took no action against Texas House Speaker Tom Craddick, Texas Association of Business President Bill Hammond or state Reps. Dianne Delisi and Beverly Woolley, both of whom sit on the political committee's board, for their roles in the election.

The grand jury's term ended today.

Delay's defense team will hold a press conference in Austin later this afternoon. The team includes defense attorneys Bill White and Steve Brittain of Austin and Dick DeGuerin of Houston.

State law bans corporate money being spent in connection with political campaigns and Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle, a Democrat, has spent almost three years investigating whether Republican groups and their business allies violated that ban. The groups helped elect a Republican majority to the state Legislature which, in turn, drew new Congressional districts that benefited Republican candidates.

DeLay and his associates insisted the corporate money was legally spent on committee overhead or issue advertising and not campaign-related activity.

An indictment does not force DeLay to resign as a member of Congress, but the GOP's rules demand that he resign his post as majority leader as he fights the charges. Congressional Republicans earlier tried to drop that requirement, citing Earle's investigation as a political vendetta, but they ultimately maintained the rule after withering criticism.

Over the past year, Travis County grand jurors have indicted three DeLay associates — John Colyandro, Jim Ellis and Warren Robold — as well as eight corporate donors, the Texas Association of Business and DeLay's Texans for a Republican Majority. Colyandro and Ellis were re-indicted this morning as part of the conspiracy indictment.

DeLay had appeared to escape criminal scrutiny as early as last year when Travis County prosecutors concluded they did not have the jurisdiction to pursue election code violations against him. Under the law, only DeLay's local district attorney, a Republican, had jurisdiction, and he expressed no interest in the case.

But a conspiracy charge falls under the criminal code, not the election statute that bans corporate money from being spent on a campaign. And Earle has the jurisdiction to prosecute DeLay for conspiring with others to circumvent state law.

In recent days, the broad-based investigation has focused on one particular transaction during the 2002 campaign.

In late September 2002, Colyandro, the executive director of Texans for a Republican Majority, sent a blank check to Ellis, who is DeLay's primary fundraiser in Washington.

According to the money-laundering indictment returned against those two last year, Ellis was accused of having the Republican National Committee launder $190,000 of corporate donations into noncorporate money that was sent to to seven Texas House candidates, including Austinites Jack Stick and Todd Baxter.

As late as Tuesday, Travis County prosecutors were interviewing Republican National Committee staffers about their roles in the transaction.

Even with DeLay indicted, many Republicans will breathe a sigh of relief that Craddick and others weren't indicted.

Theoretically, prosecutors could ask another grand jury to consider charges between now and the Nov. 2 anniversary of the 2002 election, when a three-year statute of limitations expires. But the defense lawyers expect today to be the last chance for 2002 allegations.

"What will you know in October," said one defense lawyer, "that you didn't know the past six months?"

ratbastid · 09-28-2005, 09:03 AM

It's a bad month to be a Republican, you can say that for sure.

Seaver · 09-28-2005, 09:06 AM

Upon reading this, what is the charge of conspiracy for?

Either it's not listed or I'm simply missing it, but I honestly dont know what the charge of conspiracy is based off of. If it gets brought to trial, yes he should step down from the Republican leadership while he fights the charges. That promise is vital to their cause.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-28-2005, 09:15 AM

Thought it was something to do with Campaign Finance.

Ustwo · 09-28-2005, 09:35 AM

They FINANLLY got around to doing this?

Its been a political hit job in the works for quite some time, I had forgoten about it.

host · 09-28-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Upon reading this, what is the charge of conspiracy for?

Either it's not listed or I'm simply missing it, but I honestly dont know what the charge of conspiracy is based off of. If it gets brought to trial, yes he should step down from the Republican leadership while he fights the charges. That promise is vital to their cause.

Seaver....it is complicated, it has taken three years....to the eve of the expiration of the statute of limitations, to bring this single criminal conspiracy charge against Tom Delay:

Quote:

http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/news...d=475590&rfi=6
McNeely: In Texas legal circles, just how bulletproof are TRMPAC and TAB?
Dave McNeely
MRT Wire Services
09/19/2005

.........For Earle, the state's chief ethics enforcer for almost 30 years, the main reason he ran for re-election in 2004 was because he thought the Legislature in which he once served was being corrupted.

The indictments "involve the misuse of corporate money to influence Texas elections in 2002,'' Earle said in a statement. "They contain allegations that TAB and TRMPAC worked together in a complicated scheme to circumvent the election code by funneling massive amounts of secret corporate wealth into elections.''...........

Ronnie Earle has a reputation for prosecuting wrongoers from both major political parties. He appears to be a dedicated, non-partisan prosecutor.

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200411180003
Media complicit in spreading false GOP smear of district attorney investigating DeLay

Since Tom Delay was unsuccessful earlier this year, in an attempt to change house ethics rules to exempt non-federal indictments from disqualifying him from holding his house majority leader position while under indictment, he is required to relinquish his leadership role until the outcome of prosecution on the conspiracy charge, and.....he has.....

Quote:

http://www.nbc4.com/news/5031484/detail.html
House Majority Leader DeLay Indicted In Texas

POSTED: 12:54 pm EDT September 28, 2005
UPDATED: 1:22 pm EDT September 28, 2005

WASHINGTON -- A Texas grand jury on Wednesday charged Rep. Tom DeLay and two political associates with conspiracy in a campaign finance scheme, forcing the House majority leader to temporarily relinquish his post.

DeLay was accused of a criminal conspiracy along with two associates, John Colyandro, former executive director of a Texas political action committee formed by DeLay, and Jim Ellis, who heads DeLay's national political committee.

"I have notified the speaker that I will temporarily step aside from my position as majority leader pursuant to rules of the House Republican Conference and the actions of the Travis County district attorney today," DeLay said.

GOP congressional officials said Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., will recommend that Rep. David Dreier of California step into those duties. Some of the duties may go to the GOP whip, Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri. The Republican rank and file may meet as early as Wednesday night to act on Hastert's recommendation.............

and.....Rep. David Dreier is a closeted gay man who lives with the chief of staff of his congressional office.
Links:
http://larryflynt.com/notebook.php?id=88
http://www.blogactive.com/2004/09/ta...ier-is_17.html
http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/b...th_gay_920.htm
This is signifigant because republicans have largely embraced the christian right position that being gay is a sinful "choice", and have a legislative agenda that includes president Bush's call for a constitutional amendment to ban lawful unions of gay partners. The "party of the family", now has a closeted gay man as acting house majority leader. I'll be happy to provide more links to bolster the argument that Dreier is gay, upon request.

host · 09-28-2005, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

They FINANLLY got around to doing this?

Its been a political hit job in the works for quite some time, I had forgoten about it.

My opinion is that it is disingenuous of you to post the remarks quoted above.
This link demonstrates that, given what has been "out there" as far as media coverage of the Texas investigation of Delay, and his well publicized move, blocked by members of his own party to change house rules to exempt non-federal indictments of house leaders from having to step down while under indictment, makes your statement extremely hard to accept as your sincere state of awareness. The house ethics committee was eviscerated at Delay's behest after it found him in violation of ethics rules three times last year. These developments seem, IMO, quite too prominent to forget.
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...om+delay+earle

Also, there is a body of evidence that makes it difficult for someone with your political savvy and intelligence to make the statement at all convincing, that Earle's prosecution of Delay is a political "hit job". It conflicts with the facts.....

Quote:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409220004
FOX News Channel correspondent Brian Wilson echoed allegations by U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) that the September 21 indictments of three top aides to DeLay by Ronnie Earle, district attorney in Travis County, Texas, were politically motivated. But evidence shows otherwise.

"This has been a dragged out, 500-day investigation and you do the political math," DeLay said, according to a September 21 Associated Press report. On the September 21 edition of FOX News Channel's Special Report with Brit Hume, Wilson reported that "some say" Earle is "the most partisan Democrat in the state of Texas" and that "a good DA [district attorney] can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich":

WILSON: Now, Ronnie Earle, the DA [district attorney] who conducted this probe, is one of the most powerful, some say the most partisan Democrat in the state of Texas. As district attorney of Travis County [Texas], he can investigate anything that pertains to the state capital. It is often said in Texas that a good DA can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. And Earle is a pretty good DA who works before a largely Democratic grand jury. Earle once brought charges against Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, a Republican, only to have the case thrown out later by a judge.

But a June 17 editorial in the Houston Chronicle noted: "During his long tenure, Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle has prosecuted many more Democratic officials than Republicans. The record does not support allegations that Earle is prone to partisan witch hunts."

This assertion supports Earle's own claim about his record. From a March 6 article in the El Paso Times: "Earle says local prosecution is fundamental and points out that 11 of the 15 politicians he has prosecuted over the years were Democrats."

On June 17, the Associated Press reported: "A county prosecutor [Earle] already investigating House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's fund-raising committee for alleged campaign finance violations is looking into similar allegations involving Democratic Rep. Martin Frost."

A January 30, 1994, New York Times article reported that Earle was investigating a Democrat, then-Texas assistant attorney general Gary Bledsoe, on charges similar to those he brought against Hutchison.

In a February 6, 1994, article about Hutchison's case, The Washington Post reported that in 1983, Earle had indicted then-Texas Attorney General Jim Mattox on felony bribery charges. Mattox was Hutchison's challenger in her 1994 Senate reelection bid.............

Quote:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0604/153821.html
Texas Prosecutor Probes Frost Allegations
Thursday June 17, 2004 1:49pm

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - A county prosecutor already investigating House Majority Leader Tom Delay's fund-raising committee for alleged campaign finance violations is looking into similar allegations involving Democratic Rep. Martin Frost.

A criminal complaint filed by a Republican state senator alleged that Frost raised corporate money in the 2000 election cycle that was illegally funneled to state legislative candidates through a committee called the Lone Star Fund.........

...............Earle has been conducting a grand jury investigation into the possible illegal use of corporate money in the 2002 elections to help Republicans win legislative seats that gave the GOP control of the Texas House for the first time since Reconstruction. DeLay has said he has done nothing illegal or unethical. Republicans have called the investigation a witch hunt being carried out by Earle, a Democrat.

Ustwo, my opinion is that what you posted is not supported by the facts; it is more than likely a baseless republican "talking point". You post so little content that is not simply your opinion, can you please point me to examples of Ronnie Earle's entire record of prosecution of Texas politicians and their associates, that would strengthen your dismissal of the integrity and non-partisanship of this prosecutor?

dksuddeth · 09-28-2005, 11:30 AM

It's conveniently ignored by republicans that Ronnie Earle has gone after politicians of both parties in an attempt to portray this investigation of Delay as a political 'hit job'.

dksuddeth · 09-28-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Upon reading this, what is the charge of conspiracy for?

Either it's not listed or I'm simply missing it, but I honestly dont know what the charge of conspiracy is based off of. If it gets brought to trial, yes he should step down from the Republican leadership while he fights the charges. That promise is vital to their cause.

In the state of Texas, it is against the law to use corporate money for political campaigns. The investigation is showing that Delays TRMPAC(Texans for a Republican Majority Political Action Committee) used corporate donations for the political campaigns of texas state legislators.

j8ear · 09-28-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Is Tom Delay being unfairly singled out for prosecution because of his poltical position in congress, or is he a corrupt politician engaged in criminal behavior?

I think yes on both counts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Will their truly be fair and equal justice for those federal office holders convicted of political corruption?

I think this is doubtful.

-bear

aswo · 09-28-2005, 08:14 PM

How is a republican using money from corporations any different than a democrat using money from a union?

hannukah harry · 09-28-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aswo

How is a republican using money from corporations any different than a democrat using money from a union?

they're two completely different types of organizations. one is allowed to donate to a political party/campaign in texas, and the other isn't. a union is a lot more like a religious group (which i assume they can use the money from) than a corporation anyways.

Locobot · 09-29-2005, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hannukah harry

they're two completely different types of organizations. one is allowed to donate to a political party/campaign in texas, and the other isn't. a union is a lot more like a religious group (which i assume they can use the money from) than a corporation anyways.

Actually under the same Texas state law unions and corporations are barred from making campaign contributions. This applies to state elections only however.

Ustwo · 09-29-2005, 05:13 AM

The DeLay response.

Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Kevin Madden, spokesman for House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas, released the following statement regarding the announcement Wednesday that a Texas grand jury has indicted DeLay on charges of conspiring to "knowingly make a political contribution" in violation of Texas law outlawing corporate contributions:

"These charges have no basis in the facts or the law. This is just another example of (Travis County District Attorney) Ronnie Earle misusing his office for partisan vendettas.

"Despite the clearly political agenda of this prosecutor, Congressman DeLay has cooperated with officials throughout the entire process. Even in the last two weeks, Ronnie Earle himself had acknowledged publicly that Mr. DeLay was not a target of his investigation. However, as with many of Ronnie Earle's previous partisan investigations, Ronnie Earle refused to let the facts or the law get in the way of his partisan desire to indict a political foe.

"This purely political investigation has been marked by illegal grand jury leaks, a fundraising speech by Ronnie Earle for Texas Democrats that inappropriately focused on the investigation, misuse of his office for partisan purposes, and extortion of money for Earle's pet projects from corporations in exchange for dismissing indictments he brought against them.

"Ronnie Earle's previous misuse of his office has resulted in failed prosecutions and we trust his partisan grandstanding will strike out again, as it should.

"Ronnie Earle's 1994 indictment against Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison was quickly dismissed and his charges in the 1980s against former Attorney General Jim Mattox-another political foe of Earle-fell apart at trial.

"We regret the people of Texas will once again have their taxpayer dollars wasted on Ronnie Earle's pursuit of headlines and political paybacks. Ronnie Earle began this investigation in 2002, after the Democrat Party lost the Texas state legislature to Republicans.

"For three years and through numerous grand juries, Ronnie Earle has tried to manufacture charges against Republicans involved in winning those elections using arcane statutes never before utilized in a case in the state.

"This indictment is nothing more than prosecutorial retribution by a partisan Democrat."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/...man.statement/

If we are lucky, he will tell us how he really feels next time.

shakran · 09-29-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

I think yes on both counts.

Why? If he did it, he should be prosecuted for it. There's nothing unfair about it.

And Ustwo, DeLay's response doesn't really impress me. Of course he's gonna respond like that. Did you really expect him to come out and say he did it?

Rekna · 09-29-2005, 06:44 AM

J8ear, if Delay is being unfairly targeted is it safe to say Clinton was unfairly target also?

Ustwo · 09-29-2005, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

And Ustwo, DeLay's response doesn't really impress me. Of course he's gonna respond like that. Did you really expect him to come out and say he did it?

Just giving you a link bro, this is a host thread after all, every coin has its other side.

filtherton · 09-29-2005, 08:57 AM

Does anyone think this will effect whether delay gets the nod to replace sandra day oconnor?

Elphaba · 09-29-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Does anyone think this will effect whether delay gets the nod to replace sandra day oconnor?

You made my day, sir.

j8ear · 09-29-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Why? If he did it, he should be prosecuted for it. There's nothing unfair about it.

First of all, we don't prosecute people because they did it...we prosecute to determine if they did it.

^this is why I don't think it will be fair.

Full Disclosure...I personally believe Delay is one of the most corrupt, connected, sneaky, back stabbing, power hungry, favor peddling politicians I've ever seen. This is likely why he is also one of the most effective. I'm keeping an open mind on the guilt or innocence that will result from this prosecution, none-the-less.

The left has convicted him, the right has exonerated him. The outcome of this trial will make little difference, imho, with these points of view.

We'll see. I have lost almost all faith in our justice system. It is such a joke. Indictments are a freaking joke. A secret proceeding where only the prosecutor gets to spin whatever evidence they want, and exclude that which they don't like? Come on...what kind of a system is that. A law enforcement system that relies and thrives on decepetion, yet forbids, and makes it a felony for a citizen to do the same. Plea bargains, and selective prosecution? Who is running this asylum?

Check the recent boondoggles involving the enron investigations. The feds have lost their minds. The lead prosecutor recently resigned because he was THREATENING witnesses for the defense with vigor prosecutions on trumped up charges if they assisted the defense!!!!!!! WHAT THE FUCK. RESIGNED...why isn't ~that~ criminal in jail?

Still, I'm going to wait and see....but my gut tells me that this will not be fair, and whatever, if any, punishment is mandated will be mind bogglingly light.

-bear

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Does anyone think this will effect whether delay gets the nod to replace sandra day oconnor?

God I hope so!!!!! Was he even in the running?

Seaver · 09-29-2005, 09:56 AM

Well he stepped down from leadership. Even if he's aquitted the left claims victory by getting him out of the seat and effectively ending this political power.

smooth · 09-29-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

The left has convicted him, the right has exonerated him.

I don't think the right has exonerated him. If so, I think they would have stood by him more firmly. For example, agreeing to change the rules to allow him to retain his position in Congress.

JBX · 09-29-2005, 10:28 AM

If he's guilty he deserves what he gets, if he's innocent will there be an apology? No one remembers an acquittal.

j8ear · 09-29-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

I don't think the right has exonerated him. If so, I think they would have stood by him more firmly. For example, agreeing to change the rules to allow him to retain his position in Congress.

Maybe you're right (no pun intended

), but I think the left ~has~ convicted him, and an aquittal will not change that. Maybe ~some~ on the right aren't sure and are waiting to see how it plays out.

I don't the reasoning has anything to do with what happened with the rules change proposal. Changing that would have been suicide for the politicians, since it was the right that put it in place to address corrupt democrats not to long ago.

Eitherway, interesting discussion, hopefully not picking any nits as I'm often wont to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

IMO, this is just the first of several charges that Tom Delay will ultimately be indicted under.

After rereading the original post, I'd really appreciate some depth and insight into this opinion. No need for actual articles, just the mention of a crime or two for which this might be possible. I'll take care of the googling.

-bear

flstf · 09-29-2005, 11:30 AM

I haven't been following this story as closely as many of the posters have. As I understand it, some companies donated money to some PACs who donated it to the national party commitee who dispersed some to their party's polititian's election campaigns.

I thought this was how both major parties ran things nowadays.
Is this just against the law in Texas?

j8ear · 09-29-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

Is this just against the law in Texas?

It is against the law in Texas. Although I'm not sure about the "just" part...as it could be against the law in other states as well. It isn't federal though, that's for sure.

-bear

martinguerre · 09-29-2005, 12:27 PM

jbear...i think host may be referring to possible federal charges which were previously viewed as unlikely. If he is convicted under texas law, and that conviction stands...a lack of prosecution at the federal level would appear incompetent or worse. My understanding is that it would be similar charges...accepting money for access, illegal contributions, etc.

j8ear · 09-29-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

jbear...i think host may be referring to possible federal charges which were previously viewed as unlikely. If he is convicted under texas law, and that conviction stands...a lack of prosecution at the federal level would appear incompetent or worse. My understanding is that it would be similar charges...accepting money for access, illegal contributions, etc.

He isn't currently charged with any of that now. HE is charged with violations of state law (actually conspiracy to violate state law) which do not have a federal counterpart.

If he is convicted under state law, that's it. There is no federal crime for conspiring to funnel corporate donations to fund a texas state campaign.

Even if there were, the feds do not follow up state convictions of a crime with a federal prosecution unless the state prosecution failed...think rodney king.

-bear

Locobot · 09-29-2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I haven't been following this story as closely as many of the posters have. As I understand it, some companies donated money to some PACs who donated it to the national party commitee who dispersed some to their party's polititian's election campaigns.

I thought this was how both major parties ran things nowadays.
Is this just against the law in Texas?

This particular case involves Delay's fundraising for Texas state congress for which different rules apply than national elections. Delay was involved because if the state congress had a Republican majority they could redistrict Texas in favor of Republicans, further securing the Republican hold on the U.S. House.

Remember the Texas state Democrats going awol to prevent this? Turns out they may of had some legitimate gripes.

Elphaba · 09-29-2005, 01:39 PM

Bear, DeLay was rebuked three times by the ethics committee last year, primarily due to his receiving lobbyist money for trips (the Scotland golf trip for example). If Republicans decide it's in their best interests to distance themselves from DeLay, further investigations may follow. While I agree that this indictment is a state matter, there are plenty of K Street activities that may get DeLay in further trouble.

This article summarized some of the areas of concern:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

Quote:

The Hammer Falls
By Michael Scherer
Salon.com

Thursday 29 September 2005

It isn't just Tom DeLay. The vast corrupt money machine that funded the Republican Revolution is exploding before our eyes.

At its height, the first great political machine of the 21st century worked like this: In Congress, Texas Rep. Tom DeLay controlled the votes like a modern-day Boss Tweed. He called himself "the Hammer." His domain included a vast network of former aides and foot soldiers he installed in key positions at law firms and trade groups, a network that came to be called the "K Street Project." He gathered tithes in the form of campaign cash, hard and soft, and spread it out among the loyal. He legislated for favored donors. He punished those who disobeyed, and bought off those who could be paid.

Conservative activists, who had grown up in the heady days of Reagan's America, patrolled the badlands of American politics for new opportunities. None did it better than Jack Abramoff, a former president of the College Republicans, who had a taste for expensive suits. Abramoff opened a restaurant, Signatures, where the powerful came to be seen and, in many cases, treated to free meals from a menu that included $74 steaks. He pulled in tens of millions of dollars from Indian tribes and the Northern Marianas Islands to help fund other operations - skyboxes at the MCI Center where DeLay could hold his fundraisers and all-expense trips to Scotland where DeLay and friends could play golf.

Others were drawn into the web as well. Abramoff kicked down money to his old college buddy Grover Norquist, an anti-tax crusader whose role was to keep the right-wing ideologues in line. He hired Ralph Reed, a former advisor to the Christian Coalition, who helped keep the religious right on good terms with the Republican leadership. He hired Michael Scanlon, a former aide to DeLay, as his assistant. He leaned on former lobbying colleagues, like David Safavian, who was working in the Bush administration and could do favors for his clients. Susan Ralston, Abramoff's former gatekeeper and executive assistant, went to work for Karl Rove in the White House.

For a while, the whole operation seemed unstoppable. DeLay, Abramoff, Norquist, Reed and Rove vanquished their Democratic opponents, winning election after election. The loyalty that ensued allowed for a historic cohesion in Congress. Tax breaks passed like clockwork, as did subsidies for favored industries and cuts to long-standing Democratic initiatives. The Democratic Party, which had ruled Capitol Hill for half a century, imploded in confusion.

But the machine may now be coming to an end. The prosecutors have arrived, and they are handing out indictments at a blistering rate. "It's a house of cards," says Norman Ornstein, a congressional scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. "Jack Abramoff has been the ace of spades, but Tom DeLay has been linked arm in arm with him." Now the house is on the brink of collapse, he added. "Everything that surrounded the K Street Project and what flowed from it ... all of that is under intense pressure."

On Wednesday, DeLay was indicted with two aides by a Texas grand jury, accused of flouting campaign finance laws by illegally sending corporate funds to GOP candidates in the state. Two months ago, Abramoff was arrested and charged with fraud in connection with a casino deal in Florida. On Tuesday, two employees of a company owned by Abramoff were charged with murdering the casino's former owner. Last week, the feds arrested David Safavian, who has been working in the White House, on charges of lying to investigators about a trip to Scotland with DeLay and Abramoff. Scanlon, the former DeLay aide who worked with Abramoff, is said to be cooperating with investigators, who are likely to file even more charges.

For those who have followed the machine from its inception, these developments are striking. "It represents the beginning of the end of an era," said Vic Fazio, a Democratic lobbyist at the law firm Akin, Gump and a former California congressman. "A powerful group of people who had consolidated their power in the mid- to late 1990s is now vulnerable to legal attack."

Even some conservatives have begun to distance themselves. "The Tom DeLay machine that he built, there were corruptive elements to it," said Stephen Moore, a longtime conservative activist who sat at the head table at a recent dinner celebrating DeLay's career. Moore, who founded the Free Enterprise Fund, still describes himself as a "Tom DeLay fan," who considers the congressman a "conservative hero." But he has misgivings as well. "All of these guys getting rich off this process rubs some conservatives the wrong way," Moore said. "It's going to be difficult for Tom to recover from this no matter what happens."

Though DeLay may not recover, his machine has not yet collapsed entirely. Late Wednesday, House Speaker Dennis Hastert appointed Rep. Roy Blunt, the Republican whip from Missouri and a disciple of DeLay, as the new majority leader. Republicans, meanwhile, began working to portray the torrent of indictments as politically motivated charges against one individual. "Tom DeLay is a tremendous public servant," said Ken Mehlman, the chairman of the Republican National Committee, in a statement. "It is our sincere hope that justice will remain blind to politics." DeLay also lashed out, as is his fashion, saying he was a victim of "one of the most baseless indictments in American history."

Perhaps the best news for Republicans is the relative disorganization of the Democratic Party, which remains weakened after the 2004 elections and lacking a unified message. Democratic politicians, like Rep. William Jefferson, of Louisiana, and Rep. Maxine Waters, of California, also face their own ethical scandals. As one congressional Republican, Arizona's Rep. Jeff Flake, boasted in the Wall Street Journal Wednesday, "endemic Democratic ineptitude makes Republicans more attractive when graded on a curve."

But even if the collapse of Abramoff and the weakening of DeLay does not end the Republican reign, it will at least expose its workings. For years now, Republicans across Washington have been scratching each other's backs as they march in lockstep with a unified message. With each release of a subpoenaed e-mail, and every new indictment, more information about the workings of the machine - and the money that was its lifeblood - comes to light.

In recent weeks, for instance, Timothy Flanigan, a former attorney in the Bush White House, has been answering questions from Congress about his relationship to Abramoff. Flanigan, who has been nominated as deputy attorney general, went to work for the Bermuda-based corporation Tyco after he left the White House. Once there, he hired Abramoff as a lobbyist to reach out to Karl Rove on a tax issue. According to a report in the Washington Post, Abramoff boasted to Flanigan that "he had contact with Mr. Karl Rove" and that Rove could help fight a legislative proposal that would penalize U.S. companies that had moved offshore. Flanigan oversaw a $2 million payment to Abramoff for a related letter-writing campaign that never materialized. Flanigan says the money was diverted into other "entities controlled by Mr. Abramoff."

The charges surrounding DeLay also concern the misuse of money. The former majority leader is charged with raising $190,000 in 2002 from several major corporations, including Sears Roebuck, the Williams Companies and Bacardi USA. The indictment alleges that DeLay conspired to funnel that money through the Republican National Committee into seven Texas state campaign accounts, where he was helping Republican candidates as part of his effort to redraw Texas voting districts. If the charge is proven, DeLay and his associates would have violated a Texas campaign finance law that prohibits corporate donations to local races.

The ability of DeLay and Abramoff to collect and distribute enormous sums of money was always a key to their success. They used the money to buy friends and crush enemies. They used the money to fund the Republican revolution. As Abramoff told the New York Times in March, "Eventually, money wins in politics."

Those words form a perfect epitaph for a political machine gone awry.

j8ear · 09-29-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

salon.com article

Interesting.

I found this excert from this article: also very interesting.

Quote:

In the courtroom, Mr. DeLay's fate may turn on whether his Texans for a Republian Majority committee spent the corporate money on "administrative" costs, which Texas law permits, or on candidate solicitation and support, which the law forbids. Given the great flood of money in American politics, both that fine point and the amounts in question --about $150,000 -- are pretty trivial.

Notice the grey area. I think this will come down to whose 'peers' sit on the jury.

-b-

pan6467 · 09-29-2005, 05:03 PM

Sad..... we crucified a president because he cheated on his wife and lied about it..... BFD but the Right did all they could to get something anything on him.

Now the Dems are doing it to the GOP.

Whatever happened to just fucking doing the job and what's best for the country and not playing fucking legal games.

It's going on in Ohio also, only Taft is being taken out by his own party as well as Dems.

Politics have become corrupt and lost all sense of duty to the CITIZENS, instead they are pandering and selling their souls to PACs, Corporations, Religious groups and whatever....... it's time to make them accountable to the people again by electing the best person to office and not voting solely by party.

Because when you vote solely by party what you end up with is corruption.

Elphaba · 09-29-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Politics have become corrupt and lost all sense of duty to the CITIZENS, instead they are pandering and selling their souls to PACs, Corporations, Religious groups and whatever....... it's time to make them accountable to the people again by electing the best person to office and not voting solely by party.

Because when you vote solely by party what you end up with is corruption.

Pan, I received this email today from someone that I have great respect. His challenge is that we need to walk the talk by committing ourselves to local politics and rebuild our parties of choice in a manner that reflects "OUR" interests in solutions, rather than chasing the money between elections. I completely understand your frustration, because I share it. But, this email was a major kick to my butt to begin acting to improve the status quo, rather than bitching that it isn't "right." Consider this a friendly kick to your butt, as well.

Quote:

.........If you're seeking meaning and direction and not finding it, it's because you're not in the ranks making that meaning. Seriously -- I speak from experience.

Last year I became politically active for the first time in my life. I guess I always thought somebody else was taking care of this political business for me, would tell me what the platform was and how to vote. Much to my amazement, I discovered that there hasn't been much of an organization here locally, that it was complacent and riddled with entrenched entitlement. To my even greater amazement, it took me and a couple other folks like me only days, weeks, a handful of months to make a substantive change in this situation. We do have the power, and we are beginning to take our country back, block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood.

Don't wait for Mr. Kilgore. You can see he's asking for that which you've requested yourself, asking for us to unify under some message. Go -- be that thing you want to see. Make it happen. You have the power.

In my case, I am pressing for a revitalized party that remembers its roots. As Paul Wellstone said, "When we all do well, we ALL do well." I want to raise the tide for all of our boats with investment in our innovation, want to be a net exporter instead of a net importer of technology. I want to end our dependency on oil, which brings turmoil abroad and ultimately weakens our national security and our economy. I want our businesses to compete globally on level ground -- they should not be in healthcare, but in business, freed by a single-payer healthcare system. I want our children to be the preferred employees of global companies here, on our soil. I want my children and I to sleep well at night, knowing we are respected in the world and that our shores are well-guarded against threat from man and prepared against nature. And I want honest, straight-talking people to work for me, represent me in government, a government of, by and for the people.

Now that's what I'm working for, giving up 40 hours a month to this end because I want it that badly. What's it worth to you? How badly do you want it? Don't ask for it. Make it happen. The other amazing thing I learned: leaders show up -- they are the ones who attend the meetings, ask the stupid questions, follow through, deliver. How hard is that? I can do it. So can you. Go for it. When is that next local party meeting?........

host · 09-29-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Upon reading this, what is the charge of conspiracy for?

Either it's not listed or I'm simply missing it, but I honestly dont know what the charge of conspiracy is based off of. If it gets brought to trial, yes he should step down from the Republican leadership while he fights the charges. That promise is vital to their cause.

Seaver, this is probably the most comprehensive report about what led up to the indictment of Tom Delay.

Quote:

http://www.texasobserver.org/showArt...ArticleID=2017
Roadmap to a Scandal
The first TRMPAC-related trial set the stage for the criminal process to come

............... Most of the legwork on the TAB case was performed by an intense and driven young lawyer at the firm named Cris Feldman. A good-government absolutist, Feldman traces his political awakening in part to his junior year of high school in Clear Lake outside of Houston, when he read an expose of the Sharpstown political scandal called “Texas Under a Cloud” by Sam Kinch. At the University of Texas Law School, he took an active role in organizing around diversity issues. Feldman was eager to delve deeper into the 2002 campaign. Long before others recognized it, Feldman saw that the newly elected majority was bought and paid for by special interests. “Secret corporate cash warps the electoral system,” he explains. “It’s out-of-state board rooms tampering with policy that’s supposed to benefit Texas living rooms.”...................

.......“The ultimate point of this case was to enforce the election code and uphold the century-old principle that secret corporate cash should not influence elections and the Texas Legislature,” says Feldman.

It was precisely the nature of how the Republicans seized power and what they did with it that produced willing plaintiffs and a consensus among the politically active trial lawyers at Ivy, Crews & Elliott. “I told them, ‘let this be our contribution on the political end,’ and that’s how we got the firm to accept it,” recalls Crews............

No matter where your political sympathies lie, I recommend reading it.....the whole thing. If you find things in this report that you want to challenge, post your argument.

The article says that prosecutor Ronnie Earle's office sent observers to the first trial. The major point that I was unaware of is that this all started because of a discrepancy in what the PAC reported raising in corporate contributions, to the Texas Ethics Commisssion, vs. what it reported raising, to the IRS, and, it started with losing democratic legislative candidates filing a civil suit:

Quote:

....... On November 22, 2002, the firm had filed a lawsuit against the Texas Association of Business after its president, Bill Hammond, boasted that the TAB’s use of corporate cash “blew the doors off the November 5 general election using an unprecedented show of muscle that featured political contributions and a massive voter education drive.” As the TAB case languished on appeal, new facts emerged about the involvement of Texans for a Republican Majority (TRMPAC) in the 2002 campaign. The PAC, founded by U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Sugar Land), had filed documents with the IRS that revealed more than $700,000 in corporate contributions that had not been disclosed to the Texas Ethics Commission.....

host · 09-30-2005, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
IMO, this is just the first of several charges that Tom Delay will ultimately be indicted under.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

......After rereading the original post, I'd really appreciate some depth and insight into this opinion. No need for actual articles, just the mention of a crime or two for which this might be possible. I'll take care of the googling.

-bear

bear,

Speculation is that someone formerly close to Delay has "rolled over" to prosecutor Earle, and will provide credible testimony against Delay to a jury.
Jack Abramoff is Delay's potential source for federal indictments and more scenarios of testimony from indicted former associates, against him.
Delay's former press secretary, Mike Scanlon, is under investigation with Abramoff, over the $66 million lobbying fees collected from Indian Tribes.

IMO, Delay's nickname is certainly fitting. He is however, an "outsider" among a group of intimates....the people really "in charge", who seem to be the "college republicans", of the late 70's to early 80's. I read that Roy Blunt, Delay's successor, was Ashcroft's chauffeur, during his '72 campaign for congress. Delay was an enforcer for Rove and Norquist, and he became the target of "sleaze" charges, and his relationship with Jack Abramoff helped keep the media spotlight off Bush and Rove. Norquist was Abramoff's campaign manager when he ran for and won presidency of College Republicans in 1980, and then successfully organized the vote for Reagan.

Rove and Norquist have much stronger and longer personal ties to Abramoff than Delay does, but it seems to me that Delay will be fingered when Abramoff rolls over completely for federal prosecutors. Delay was a Houston exterminator who rose way out of his league. He funneled over $500,000 to his own family members, and personally enjoyed the now highly publicized trips that Abramoff paid for. There are several investigative pieces from the AJC, <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=95107">here,</a> that provide background on Abramoff's "lobbying" and the money that it generated, and the involvement of Norquist and Ralph Reed in money skimming and laundering.

Abramoff's "job" was to sell the political influence of Delay, and to a lesser extent, of Bush, to special interest groups (Indian tribes who owned casinoes or had casino related ambitions), and to corporations like Tyco, who wanted tax laws that benefit Bermuda incorporation to remain unchanged. Abramoff now seems to have been everywhere:

John McCain's senate committee is investigating his activities.
David Safavian was indicted last week, accused of lying about Abramoff.
Former Tyco counsel Flanigan is pending Bush appointee for second highest slot in the Justice dept., but he paid Abramoff, Tyco's millions to lobby...

Norquist, according to AJC.com , laundered over $800,000 of Indian Tribe money for Abramoff.

Abramoff's former admin. asst., Susan Ralston, was appointed by Bush in 2001 as a white house assistant to Karl Rove. There are reports that she submits all of the names of those who try to telephone Rove, to Grover Norquist for pre-approval. Just as in the report about lobbyists (below), no one makes initial contact with Rove unless Norquist approves them.

Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, investigating the Plame CIA leak, subpoened Susan Ralston to ask her why incoming calls from Time reporter Matt Cooper were not on the call log that Rove submitted to Fitzgerald's grand jury. Fitzgerald may have discovered the Ralston connection to Abramoff and to Norquist, and may have futher investigated these relationships. Fitzgerald is supposed to finish his investigation in the next 30 days. If Bush appointee, Flanigan (above), is approved by the senate, he will oversee prosecutor Fitzgerald, but he only has the option to let him continue....or fire him!

This week, a new investigation of Bush's removal of a federal prosecutor who was investigating Abramoff's dealings with the government of Guam, was disclosed. Prosecutor Frederick Black was demoted and his investigation was ordered stopped. His replacement was reportedly approved by Rove.

Abramoff was indicted on Aug. 12 in a $23 million wire fraud crime. His partner in a gambling cruise line purchase that went bankrupt nine months after they bought it, is suspected this week of paying $250,000 to a Gambino Mob book keeper and his two associates to have the former cruise line owner murdered.
Abramoff is reported to be co-operating with prosecutors. Who do you think he is most likely to roll over on first.....Rove, Norquist, Bush, or Tom Delay?

In summary, the reports are that no lobbyist got access to Delay unless they hired one of Norquist's people, and became a Norquist approved lobbying firm.
The number of lobbyists has doubled since 2000, to over 34,000. Lobbyists who hire democrats are shut out by Norquist and Delay. Corporations who contribute money to democrats are monitored by Norquist and pressured to stop.

No new contact can talk to Rove until Abramoff's former assistant, Susan Ralston, submits the name and then gets approval from Norquist. Norquist holds no government office.

There is the casino cruise ship wire fraud plus murder investigation, the Delay ties to Abramoff, including Mike Scanlon, Abramoff paid trips that Delay took to Scotland and Russia, and the Marianas (Guam), the Indian Tribe payments investigation, senator McCain's committee investigation, the new David Safavian indictment, the investigation over the Bush halting of Guam prosecutor Black's investigation, and.....whatever Plame prosecutor Fitzgerald soon announces, or whether the senate approves Timothy Flanigan for the justice dept. position, in time for him to attempt to stop Fitzgerald from concluding and revealing his results about the Plame leaker and Susan Ralston's testimony, and perhaps much more.

Quote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines
......Before Republicans won control of the executive and legislative branches in 2000, Washington lobbying had been studiously bipartisan. Contributions from many industry groups were close to evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats........

Quote:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issue..._feature2.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4052979
HOME: OCTOBER 29, 2004: NEWS: 'HE'S FORKED HIMSELF'
Our Full conversation with Louis Dubose about 'The Hammer'

........AC: Let's talk about the lobby. You write that DeLay has reversed the traditional role of the lobby, that the Party determines lobby activity – that it's the tail wagging the dog. In the past, the lobby came and tried to influence Congress; DeLay saw that rather than doing it that way, it would make more sense just to make the lobby a division of Congress.

LD: Much as the PRI [Institutional Revolutionary Party] has captured organized labor in Mexico and made it a part of the party, these guys have captured what's in power now here, and that's the lobby. The way they've done it is amazing – brazenly. Hilary Rosen, who worked for the recording company industry, is a Democrat, told me that you have to have on your staff a Grover Norquist lobbyist – from the Americans for Tax Reform – you have to someone who [the Republican leadership] will talk to, and they have to vet the person, before you can have access to the leadership. She couldn't go to meetings that Mitch Glazier – a Republican who she hired – that he could attend, meetings in which the leadership was involved. That's astounding to me. Every shop, every lobby shop, has to have a Grover Norquist or a corporate right-wing Republican lobbyist. That's pretty remarkable. And then they were told that they could not hire Democrats any more. ........

pan6467 · 10-03-2005, 06:19 PM

What DeLay is going through and what Taft and other Ohio GOP are going through with money, influence peddling and such, the Ohio GOP is going to have a Hell of a battle. Taft's approval ratings are at 14% and it has the trickle effect on all GOP. Plus, what Delay is being accused of is similar to what is going on here in Ohio and and that will hurt the senatorial and gubenatorial chances next year and perhaps the presidential race in '08.

I don't think the president of Diebold will be "guaranteeing" to deliver Ohio to any GOP the next few years.

imthaman · 10-05-2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Is Tom Delay being unfairly singled out for prosecution because of his poltical position in congress, or is he a corrupt politician engaged in criminal behavior?

Considering that it is now coming out that the prosecutor has gone to at least three grand juries in order to get the charges, it sounds like he is on a witch hunt.

joshbaumgartner · 10-05-2005, 10:12 AM

It's been said here in Texas that it's darn hard to break Texas election laws...to even come close takes some serious doing. That Tom found even this loose structure to restrictive and engineered ways to evade the law is intriguing.

Republicans have taken only 10 years to do what took the Dems 50 years in becoming so rife with corruption that the American populace is rapidly losing faith in them and is looking for a change. Given that so many Republicans ran on the idea that government is bad and you can't trust politicians, I guess maybe they are just living up to their campaign promises...

Marvelous Marv · 10-06-2005, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imthaman

Considering that it is now coming out that the prosecutor has gone to at least three grand juries in order to get the charges, it sounds like he is on a witch hunt.

It took him SIX grand juries, but who's counting?

Earle's other big cases have also been politically motivated. The case against Kay Bailey Hutchison was so weak the judge threw it out. He lost a 1995 case against state AG Jim Mattox, a political rival. The Gib Lewis case was a hit job for Ann Richards.

DeLay may be found guilty, but Earle isn't nearly as impartial as he's being portrayed.

smooth · 10-06-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

It took him SIX grand juries, but who's counting?

Earle's other big cases have also been politically motivated. The case against Kay Bailey Hutchison was so weak the judge threw it out. He lost a 1995 case against state AG Jim Mattox, a political rival. The Gib Lewis case was a hit job for Ann Richards.

DeLay may be found guilty, but Earle isn't nearly as impartial as he's being portrayed.

I'd like to see what the two of you are referring to. I've been watching the news regarding this only sporadically, but everything I've heard is that each time the prosecutor has brought a case (not the case) to a grand jury, they have handed back an indictment. That is, you two keep citing multiple grand jury proceedings as if that means he has to keep coming back to them for an indictment, whereas the information I've heard indicates that he's successfully secured multiple indictments for multiple offenses.

If you have different information, please provide it.

09-28-2005, 09:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Thought it was something to do with Campaign Finance. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-28-2005, 09:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	They FINANLLY got around to doing this? Its been a political hit job in the works for quite some time, I had forgoten about it. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-28-2005, 11:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	It's conveniently ignored by republicans that Ronnie Earle has gone after politicians of both parties in an attempt to portray this investigation of Delay as a political 'hit job'. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

09-28-2005, 08:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
aswo Crazy	How is a republican using money from corporations any different than a democrat using money from a union? __________________ People who love people

09-29-2005, 10:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	If he's guilty he deserves what he gets, if he's innocent will there be an apology? No one remembers an acquittal. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

09-28-2005, 09:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	It's a bad month to be a Republican, you can say that for sure.

09-28-2005, 09:06 AM	#3 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Upon reading this, what is the charge of conspiracy for? Either it's not listed or I'm simply missing it, but I honestly dont know what the charge of conspiracy is based off of. If it gets brought to trial, yes he should step down from the Republican leadership while he fights the charges. That promise is vital to their cause.

09-29-2005, 06:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	J8ear, if Delay is being unfairly targeted is it safe to say Clinton was unfairly target also?

09-29-2005, 08:57 AM	#18 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Does anyone think this will effect whether delay gets the nod to replace sandra day oconnor?

09-29-2005, 09:56 AM	#21 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Well he stepped down from leadership. Even if he's aquitted the left claims victory by getting him out of the seat and effectively ending this political power.

09-29-2005, 11:30 AM	#25 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I haven't been following this story as closely as many of the posters have. As I understand it, some companies donated money to some PACs who donated it to the national party commitee who dispersed some to their party's polititian's election campaigns. I thought this was how both major parties ran things nowadays. Is this just against the law in Texas?

09-29-2005, 12:27 PM	#27 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	jbear...i think host may be referring to possible federal charges which were previously viewed as unlikely. If he is convicted under texas law, and that conviction stands...a lack of prosecution at the federal level would appear incompetent or worse. My understanding is that it would be similar charges...accepting money for access, illegal contributions, etc. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

09-29-2005, 05:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Sad..... we crucified a president because he cheated on his wife and lied about it..... BFD but the Right did all they could to get something anything on him. Now the Dems are doing it to the GOP. Whatever happened to just fucking doing the job and what's best for the country and not playing fucking legal games. It's going on in Ohio also, only Taft is being taken out by his own party as well as Dems. Politics have become corrupt and lost all sense of duty to the CITIZENS, instead they are pandering and selling their souls to PACs, Corporations, Religious groups and whatever....... it's time to make them accountable to the people again by electing the best person to office and not voting solely by party. Because when you vote solely by party what you end up with is corruption. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-03-2005, 06:19 PM	#36 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	What DeLay is going through and what Taft and other Ohio GOP are going through with money, influence peddling and such, the Ohio GOP is going to have a Hell of a battle. Taft's approval ratings are at 14% and it has the trickle effect on all GOP. Plus, what Delay is being accused of is similar to what is going on here in Ohio and and that will hurt the senatorial and gubenatorial chances next year and perhaps the presidential race in '08. I don't think the president of Diebold will be "guaranteeing" to deliver Ohio to any GOP the next few years. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-05-2005, 10:12 AM	#38 (permalink)
joshbaumgartner Insane	It's been said here in Texas that it's darn hard to break Texas election laws...to even come close takes some serious doing. That Tom found even this loose structure to restrictive and engineered ways to evade the law is intriguing. Republicans have taken only 10 years to do what took the Dems 50 years in becoming so rife with corruption that the American populace is rapidly losing faith in them and is looking for a change. Given that so many Republicans ran on the idea that government is bad and you can't trust politicians, I guess maybe they are just living up to their campaign promises...