Why The Levee Broke - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Daniel_ · 09-02-2005, 11:13 AM

Article Here

http://alternet.org/story/24871/

very interesting - is it true?

Daniel_ · 09-02-2005, 11:17 AM

Here's the text for those that don't like links

Quote:

Washington knew exactly what needed to be done to protect the citizens of New Orleans from disasters like Katrina. Yet federal funding for Louisiana flood control projects was diverted to pay for the war in Iraq.

Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters continued to rise in New Orleans on Wednesday. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until until it's level with the massive lake.

There have been numerous reports of bodies floating in the poorest neighborhoods of this poverty-plagued city, but the truth is that the death toll may not be known for days, because the conditions continue to frustrate rescue efforts.

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to this Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness:

The $750 million Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection project is another major Corps project, which remains about 20% incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager. That project consists of building up levees and protection for pumping stations on the east bank of the Mississippi River in Orleans, St. Bernard, St. Charles and Jefferson parishes.

The Lake Pontchartrain project is slated to receive $3.9 million in the president's 2005 budget. Naomi said about $20 million is needed.

"The longer we wait without funding, the more we sink," he said. "I've got at least six levee construction contracts that need to be done to raise the levee protection back to where it should be (because of settling). Right now I owe my contractors about $5 million. And we're going to have to pay them interest."

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

That June, with the 2004 hurricane seasion starting, the Corps' Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane- and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs. According to New Orleans CityBusiness this June 5:

The district has identified $35 million in projects to build and improve levees, floodwalls and pumping stations in St. Bernard, Orleans, Jefferson and St. Charles parishes. Those projects are included in a Corps line item called Lake Pontchartrain, where funding is scheduled to be cut from $5.7 million this year to $2.9 million in 2006. Naomi said it's enough to pay salaries but little else.

"We'll do some design work. We'll design the contracts and get them ready to go if we get the money. But we don't have the money to put the work in the field, and that's the problem," Naomi said.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount.

But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said.

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late. One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer was a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday. The levee failure appears to be causing a human tragedy of epic proportions: "We probably have 80 percent of our city under water; with some sections of our city the water is as deep as 20 feet. Both airports are underwater," Mayor Ray Nagin told a radio interviewer.

The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Washington knew that this day could come at any time, and it knew the things that needed to be done to protect the citizens of New Orleans. But in the tradition of the riverboat gambler, the Bush administration decided to roll the dice on its fool's errand in Iraq, and on a tax cut that mainly benefitted the rich. Now Bush has lost that gamble, big time.

The president told us that we needed to fight in Iraq to save lives here at home. Yet -- after moving billions of domestic dollars to the Persian Gulf -- there are bodies floating through the streets of Louisiana. What does George W. Bush have to say for himself now?

Locobot · 09-02-2005, 11:37 AM

Interesting but it omits two other obvious causes for the flooding: the rise in sea levels due to global warming and the destruction of wetlands to accomodate (sub)urban sprawl. Whether or not you want to attribute global warming to human causes (I do), it's undeniably happening. Glaciers and ice shelfs are receding. Wetlands act as a natural sponge when sea levels surge.

Daniel_ · 09-02-2005, 11:45 AM

Totally agree, Loco.

We have the same issue (on a much smaller scale) in the UK - new towns get built on old wetlands and flood plains and then flood (quel surpise!).

smackson · 09-02-2005, 03:05 PM

Call me selfish if you want, but I really think that we should be spending a hell of a lot more money here than we are, and worrying less about the people of Iraq. Like I also posted in a different thread, if we had those 100,000 or so troops that right now are fighting in Iraq home instead there would be a hell of a lot more people in N.O. now to help the people that are still stranded.

hamsterdancer · 09-02-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

Article Here

http://alternet.org/story/24871/

very interesting - is it true?

No. The levees were designed to deal with Category 3 storms. Additionally, the part of the levee that failed had just recently been refurbished.

nofnway · 09-02-2005, 07:25 PM

I thought the levys broke because of a hurricane and high water levels not lack of funding.

This levy problem has been a buggaboo for a very long time.

The 17th street canal , the main break as I understand was a "completed" project according to the Corps of engineers.

Shoulda coulda wouldas are useless now except as lessons for the future. Hopefully we're all paying attention.?
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrin...dgetworse.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,5853346.story

Seaver · 09-02-2005, 07:57 PM

Actually the sea level has risen only about an inch or two in recorded sea level history.

Louisiana, however, has been recorded as sinking (perticularly New Orleans). What this is, was ignorant planning with an ever-increasing problem of a city below sea level. It's not as if the sea is encroaching on the city, if that was true it'd be the same as every city by the sea. It's the geology of that perticular area which was the problem.

If you dont believe me simply look up any information about it. The city of NO is actually BELOW the lake that surrounds it. The only reason it never flooded was the dikes, which were built to survive only very weak hurricanes.

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 09:33 PM

Interesting stuff here. With all of the discussion regarding the funding cuts, can anyone less lazy than I come up with a figure for how much money we sent to the tsunami victims?

For extra credit, how much it cost to send our Navy there, after which we were told to get the hell out?

Locobot · 09-03-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Actually the sea level has risen only about an inch or two in recorded sea level history.

Louisiana, however, has been recorded as sinking (perticularly New Orleans)

Louisiana is sinking relative to what? The sea level?

tecoyah · 09-03-2005, 04:29 AM

Indeed....it is slowly moving into the sea. Makes one wonder if we are fighting a losing battle.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science....louisiana.ap/

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1553-4981r.htm

Report: La. sinking into Gulf of Mexico

Washington, DC, Jun. 5 (UPI) -- The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has said much of southern Louisiana may sink into the Gulf of Mexico by the end of the century.

The administration's report said the northern Gulf of Mexico is sinking much faster than previously thought, and the Texas coastline could also be in danger, the Houston Chronicle reported Sunday.

The report said a small metal disk bolted to the ground, which provides a standard elevation above sea level for land surveying and mapping as well as determining flood-prone areas, has been sinking along with everything else. The authors of the NOAA report said geologists had previously interpreted the yardstick's readings as minimal geologic subsidence along most of the Louisiana coast, but the NOAA now believes the state's entire coastal region is sinking at least 5 feet every century.

The authors said a similar situation may be developing a few miles south of Houston.

"Subsidence doesn't stop at the Texas border," said Roy Dokka, a co-author of the NOAA report and a Louisiana State University geologist.

IC3 · 09-03-2005, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Indeed....it is slowly moving into the sea. Makes one wonder if we are fighting a losing battle.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science....louisiana.ap/

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1553-4981r.htm

Report: La. sinking into Gulf of Mexico

Washington, DC, Jun. 5 (UPI) -- The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has said much of southern Louisiana may sink into the Gulf of Mexico by the end of the century.

The administration's report said the northern Gulf of Mexico is sinking much faster than previously thought, and the Texas coastline could also be in danger, the Houston Chronicle reported Sunday.

The report said a small metal disk bolted to the ground, which provides a standard elevation above sea level for land surveying and mapping as well as determining flood-prone areas, has been sinking along with everything else. The authors of the NOAA report said geologists had previously interpreted the yardstick's readings as minimal geologic subsidence along most of the Louisiana coast, but the NOAA now believes the state's entire coastal region is sinking at least 5 feet every century.

The authors said a similar situation may be developing a few miles south of Houston.

"Subsidence doesn't stop at the Texas border," said Roy Dokka, a co-author of the NOAA report and a Louisiana State University geologist.

This is kinda scary. In the article where it says that N.O. is sinking along with other parts of that state, Is it all below sea level or just N.O.?

Elphaba · 09-03-2005, 12:35 PM

I believe that some of the sinking may be due in part to man-made changes to the course of the Mississippi. Those changes caused silt to deposit directly into the gulf rather than the surrounding wet lands where it was previously deposited.

raveneye · 09-03-2005, 01:31 PM

Actually the subsidence is natural, those sediments are soft and they just sink under their own weight. Lots of coastlines are subsiding like this, I think Houston is subsiding faster than N.O.

But I think Elphaba is right, the river always dumped way more sediment than necessary to maintain the marshes and barrier islands, but now that it's channelized out into the Gulf, there's nothing anymore to balance the sinking.

The scientists who warned against the channelization, and all the dredging and development, were generally dismissed as either (1) hysterical environmentalists or (2) exaggerating to get more research grants.

Now that their predictions have come true, I think it's time to think seriously about what they've always said needed to be done: rebuild the wetlands and barrier islands, and rechannel the river so that it's again dumping sediment on all those fringing wetlands that used to shield N.O. and other areas from the storms.

Tophat665 · 09-03-2005, 04:40 PM

Drat, and here I thought the levee broke because it kept on rainin'.

(I now return you to your serious conversation. This is too potentially infuriating for me to be serious about.)

Seaver · 09-03-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Drat, and here I thought the levee broke because it kept on rainin'.

(I now return you to your serious conversation. This is too potentially infuriating for me to be serious about.)

Well you're right. The rain kept coming, and with the storm surge it broke the levee. The problem is that everyone KNEW about this problem, it was built to survive a category 3, this was a category 5.

The fact that the city of NO has sunk below sea level is what caused the prolonged damage and promises to happen again.

aswo · 09-06-2005, 03:04 PM

That problem still should of been addressed by the local and state governments.

cyrnel · 09-06-2005, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Well you're right. The rain kept coming, and with the storm surge it broke the levee. The problem is that everyone KNEW about this problem, it was built to survive a category 3, this was a category 5.

The fact that the city of NO has sunk below sea level is what caused the prolonged damage and promises to happen again.

That entire region was built up by sediment deposits from the Mississippi river. The deposits and the dry land they provide isn't old, geologically, and settles naturally, irrespective of ocean level.

Much of NO was built on what was a swamp area, below sea level. It's worse now. When weather first flooded the natural levees during the first French rule, the people built them higher, and the cycle repeated. Much later part of the improvement meant controlling the river flow which removed the source of new deposits. Without new deposits the entire coastal region is slowly going under.

I expect knee-jerk levee funding but nothing's going to happen quickly. IIRC, the existing upgrades (long underfunded) weren't slated for completion until 2015.

fightnight · 09-13-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Well you're right. The rain kept coming, and with the storm surge it broke the levee. The problem is that everyone KNEW about this problem, it was built to survive a category 3, this was a category 5.

The fact that the city of NO has sunk below sea level is what caused the prolonged damage and promises to happen again.

Don't have time at the moment to find the link, but did anyone else hear about how this was probably more like a category 3 in New Orleans???? I saw a news report on it, bout how when it hit land, it was a category 4, however New Orleans was on the more tame side of the storm and it's winds never really broke category 3 levels in New Orleans. If this is the case, the corps of engineers has more to answer for than simply building levees that could only withstand a level 3.... they would have to explain why their levee's didn't actually live up to their supposed level's of protection.

Charlatan · 09-13-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Interesting stuff here. With all of the discussion regarding the funding cuts, can anyone less lazy than I come up with a figure for how much money we sent to the tsunami victims?

For extra credit, how much it cost to send our Navy there, after which we were told to get the hell out?

Can let us in on why you think this is relevant? (seriously)

Also, why so upset about being asked to leave? How would the US feel about having a large contingent of foreign troops on thier soil?

stevo · 09-13-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Can let us in on why you think this is relevant? (seriously)

Also, why so upset about being asked to leave? How would the US feel about having a large contingent of foreign troops on thier soil?

Hasn't happened in a while, but I kind of like the Mexicans, they can stay as long as they want.

pig · 09-13-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tophat665

Drat, and here I thought the levee broke because it kept on rainin'.

For those that didn't get it, this is a Led Zeppelin reference.

samcol · 09-13-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Hasn't happened in a while, but I kind of like the Mexicans, they can stay as long as they want.

Why Is FEMA blocking the Red Cross, thousands of firefighters, wal-mart, and others from delivering supplies to NO, yet its acceptable to have foreign troops in the country?

Seems completely backwards to me. Having our on troops taking care of domestic problems is scary enough (justified in this extreme circumstance), but I have to draw the line when it comes to foreign troops no matter how friendly they seem.

AVoiceOfReason · 09-13-2005, 02:20 PM

Yeah, even if I assume that their heart is in the right place, their boots and rifles aren't if foreign soldiers are on our soil.

I saw on Scarborough Country last night that there were some rescue workers ready to fly to NO on the day the levees broke, and they were told to take a bus. They were carrying communication equipment that would have allowed those going house to house to coordinate better during the process. Seems like it was there that I also saw the story about the NYFD going down to help and being turned back. Joe's not a happy camper about all this, and as he's not a left-wing nutjob that would complain if Bush gave him a backrub and a shoeshine, he's got a lot of credibility with me on this issue. He's down on EVERYONE, from the local screwups to the failures of the feds--and was from Wednesday or Thursday after the flooding started on Tuesday.

spongy · 09-13-2005, 07:42 PM

Let's say that we really saw that NO had a levve problem, and we poured millions or billions to fix it. this would not have been so bad. But..... what about the next big storm.. or earthquake or whatever. The fact is that we don't know where disaster will next come, and the hindsight quarterbacking gets a little old.

Markboy · 09-13-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Interesting stuff here. With all of the discussion regarding the funding cuts, can anyone less lazy than I come up with a figure for how much money we sent to the tsunami victims?

Probably in the long run, a similar figure to the amount of international aid that is being pumped into New Orleans now. Its swings and roundabouts, you give to those who have need, so that if you ever have need, they will give back to you...

fightnight · 09-14-2005, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spongy

Let's say that we really saw that NO had a levve problem, and we poured millions or billions to fix it. this would not have been so bad. But..... what about the next big storm.. or earthquake or whatever. The fact is that we don't know where disaster will next come, and the hindsight quarterbacking gets a little old.

It sure does... it's just so easy to get caught up in. Ultimately we need to deal with what we've got, fix our fuckups, and learn from them for next time.

stevo · 09-14-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Why Is FEMA blocking the Red Cross, thousands of firefighters, wal-mart, and others from delivering supplies to NO, yet its acceptable to have foreign troops in the country?

Seems completely backwards to me. Having our on troops taking care of domestic problems is scary enough (justified in this extreme circumstance), but I have to draw the line when it comes to foreign troops no matter how friendly they seem.

Who was incharge of the state of LA and the LA dept of Homeland Security at the time? try the LA governors office. Ask them why fema couldn't come in.

09-02-2005, 11:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Why The Levee Broke Article Here http://alternet.org/story/24871/ very interesting - is it true? __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-02-2005, 11:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Totally agree, Loco. We have the same issue (on a much smaller scale) in the UK - new towns get built on old wetlands and flood plains and then flood (quel surpise!). __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

09-02-2005, 07:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
nofnway Insane Location: under the freeway bridge	I thought the levys broke because of a hurricane and high water levels not lack of funding. This levy problem has been a buggaboo for a very long time. The 17th street canal , the main break as I understand was a "completed" project according to the Corps of engineers. Shoulda coulda wouldas are useless now except as lessons for the future. Hopefully we're all paying attention.? http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrin...dgetworse.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,5853346.story __________________ "Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind" Leonardo Da Vinci

09-02-2005, 09:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Interesting stuff here. With all of the discussion regarding the funding cuts, can anyone less lazy than I come up with a figure for how much money we sent to the tsunami victims? For extra credit, how much it cost to send our Navy there, after which we were told to get the hell out? __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

09-03-2005, 04:29 AM	#11 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Indeed....it is slowly moving into the sea. Makes one wonder if we are fighting a losing battle. http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science....louisiana.ap/ http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1553-4981r.htm Report: La. sinking into Gulf of Mexico Washington, DC, Jun. 5 (UPI) -- The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has said much of southern Louisiana may sink into the Gulf of Mexico by the end of the century. The administration's report said the northern Gulf of Mexico is sinking much faster than previously thought, and the Texas coastline could also be in danger, the Houston Chronicle reported Sunday. The report said a small metal disk bolted to the ground, which provides a standard elevation above sea level for land surveying and mapping as well as determining flood-prone areas, has been sinking along with everything else. The authors of the NOAA report said geologists had previously interpreted the yardstick's readings as minimal geologic subsidence along most of the Louisiana coast, but the NOAA now believes the state's entire coastal region is sinking at least 5 feet every century. The authors said a similar situation may be developing a few miles south of Houston. "Subsidence doesn't stop at the Texas border," said Roy Dokka, a co-author of the NOAA report and a Louisiana State University geologist. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-02-2005, 11:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Interesting but it omits two other obvious causes for the flooding: the rise in sea levels due to global warming and the destruction of wetlands to accomodate (sub)urban sprawl. Whether or not you want to attribute global warming to human causes (I do), it's undeniably happening. Glaciers and ice shelfs are receding. Wetlands act as a natural sponge when sea levels surge.

09-02-2005, 03:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
smackson Upright Location: West Valley City, Utah	Call me selfish if you want, but I really think that we should be spending a hell of a lot more money here than we are, and worrying less about the people of Iraq. Like I also posted in a different thread, if we had those 100,000 or so troops that right now are fighting in Iraq home instead there would be a hell of a lot more people in N.O. now to help the people that are still stranded.

09-02-2005, 07:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Actually the sea level has risen only about an inch or two in recorded sea level history. Louisiana, however, has been recorded as sinking (perticularly New Orleans). What this is, was ignorant planning with an ever-increasing problem of a city below sea level. It's not as if the sea is encroaching on the city, if that was true it'd be the same as every city by the sea. It's the geology of that perticular area which was the problem. If you dont believe me simply look up any information about it. The city of NO is actually BELOW the lake that surrounds it. The only reason it never flooded was the dikes, which were built to survive only very weak hurricanes.

09-03-2005, 12:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I believe that some of the sinking may be due in part to man-made changes to the course of the Mississippi. Those changes caused silt to deposit directly into the gulf rather than the surrounding wet lands where it was previously deposited.

09-03-2005, 01:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	Actually the subsidence is natural, those sediments are soft and they just sink under their own weight. Lots of coastlines are subsiding like this, I think Houston is subsiding faster than N.O. But I think Elphaba is right, the river always dumped way more sediment than necessary to maintain the marshes and barrier islands, but now that it's channelized out into the Gulf, there's nothing anymore to balance the sinking. The scientists who warned against the channelization, and all the dredging and development, were generally dismissed as either (1) hysterical environmentalists or (2) exaggerating to get more research grants. Now that their predictions have come true, I think it's time to think seriously about what they've always said needed to be done: rebuild the wetlands and barrier islands, and rechannel the river so that it's again dumping sediment on all those fringing wetlands that used to shield N.O. and other areas from the storms.

09-03-2005, 04:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Drat, and here I thought the levee broke because it kept on rainin'. (I now return you to your serious conversation. This is too potentially infuriating for me to be serious about.) __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

09-06-2005, 03:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
aswo Crazy	That problem still should of been addressed by the local and state governments. __________________ People who love people

09-13-2005, 02:20 PM	#24 (permalink)
AVoiceOfReason Psycho Location: Greenwood, Arkansas	Yeah, even if I assume that their heart is in the right place, their boots and rifles aren't if foreign soldiers are on our soil. I saw on Scarborough Country last night that there were some rescue workers ready to fly to NO on the day the levees broke, and they were told to take a bus. They were carrying communication equipment that would have allowed those going house to house to coordinate better during the process. Seems like it was there that I also saw the story about the NYFD going down to help and being turned back. Joe's not a happy camper about all this, and as he's not a left-wing nutjob that would complain if Bush gave him a backrub and a shoeshine, he's got a lot of credibility with me on this issue. He's down on EVERYONE, from the local screwups to the failures of the feds--and was from Wednesday or Thursday after the flooding started on Tuesday. __________________ AVOR A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

09-13-2005, 07:42 PM	#25 (permalink)
spongy Psycho	Let's say that we really saw that NO had a levve problem, and we poured millions or billions to fix it. this would not have been so bad. But..... what about the next big storm.. or earthquake or whatever. The fact is that we don't know where disaster will next come, and the hindsight quarterbacking gets a little old. __________________ The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. Stephen King