estate tax repeal - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 07-12-2005, 07:04 PM

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Originally Posted by moosenose

What you are saying is that your father believes that the State is entitled to all of the results of his labor, and he has no right to say what happens to the assets that he worked to create or save. You are not talking about the government taking a PORTION of his estate, you are talking about the government taking ALL of it. Let me ask you this: who is going to pay for your father's funeral when he dies? Because if his funeral expenses are coming out of the windfall that his death is going to give the Government, the Government may decide that he doesn't NEED the perpetual care or that fancy headstone, they can throw his body in an oven and save themselves a few thousand dollars.

One of the VERY basic tenets of our system of government is that the government is there to serve the people, NOT that the people are there to serve the government. And with what you were talking about with the "level playing field" of everybody starting out with no assets from their parents, that's EXACTLY what you are advocating....that the wealth of an individual, built up over the lifetime of the individual through the individual's efforts, is ultimately the property of hte Government.

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the government can have every freaking penny of my inheritence. What I work for and make on my own is more important to me. What I'll get won't bring me happiness.

is MY feeling and opinion...... and it's the truth.

Do I believe the government has the right to every cent someone has when they die?

No.

However, I do feel that to say none of it should be taxed is bullshit and not putting back into the system that allowed you to have whatever you have gotten.

Nowhere did I say my father believes it should all go back to the government. I stated his belief is that when he dies a portion should go back to the system that helped him so that it may help others. That's called taxes.

As for funeral costs that's what life insurance (and IT is not taxed) is for.

I don't understand what the problem with me saying I have no right to what my father made on his own is? I don't he could easily leave me out of his will.

Nowhere did I say we are to serve the government. But by helping my father better his life and therefore he was able to move up into society, it did serve him and it is his obligation to repay it. Inheritence tax is one way of doing it.

What you propose is that the rich should be able to keep every single penny and not put back into the system. If you do not put back into the system the system breaks down.

Now someone who truly had maybe just a small farm or house and wants to make sure their kids have a place to live and something to start on, or their grandchildren, that's cool. But to propose that Bill Gates' kids are entitlked to every single penny he made is bullshit.

Bill Gates got government help when he started and as he moved up, it is his duty to repay the system back FAIRLY so that others may have the chance to move forward like he did.

I don't understand how the GOP can argue government should never help anyone advance, everyone should be working and advance on their own, and yet believe that the wealth of the fathers is entitled to the kids. This is a flaw because it's the same as welfare only it is familial welfare.

Case in point: when I got out of the Navy I hung with a group and we called ourselves the Country Club Boys. One of the guys, mother had died and left him roughly a 2 million dollar trust fund (his father worked for IDS and so it was well invested for him, in CDs, blue chips and annuities). He lived off of it.

Did he ever work? no, he put it up his nose, spent it on golf, alcohol, weed, friends and whatever. He never put it into small businesses for any growth, he never started his own business, was it in any way put back into the system to help someone else? No, he wasted it, no way did it advance society.

I know more people like that who get inheritences than I do people who use the money to advance society.

My feeling is that if the government helped you in any way, you owe them a portion of your wealth.

If you did it all yourself, never got a college loan, never took a small business loan or tax deduction, never took anything at all from the government then perhaps you could argue (and rightfully so) that you owe the government nothing.

I look at it like this, the government is there to help people advance and better themselves, when those people do, they have a moral and legal obligation to repay the help and allow the government to help others advance. Not hoard it all and thumb their nose at those who helped them.

It's like this, as I go through school on government loans, grants and scholarships, and I become successful in my occupation, my drive had a lot to do with it, BUT my drive was enhanced by the government helping me get my start.

It's the same as if I were to recieve help from a friend or family member, by my belief system I would feel the need to repay them for their belief in me. By repaying, they in turn can help another....or I could help another, if they are not there to repay. Government should be seen the same way.

moosenose · 07-12-2005, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=pan6467]

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As for funeral costs that's what life insurance (and IT is not taxed) is for.

So people without life insurance shouldn't be buried?

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I don't understand what the problem with me saying I have no right to what my father made on his own is? I don't he could easily leave me out of his will.

Actually, it's more of your father having a right to do what he wants with what is left. If he doesn't want you to have it, fine. He can give it to the government or to charity or whatever.

Quote:

Nowhere did I say we are to serve the government. But by helping my father better his life and therefore he was able to move up into society, it did serve him and it is his obligation to repay it. Inheritence tax is one way of doing it.

So he didn't pay income tax, et cetera on the money he made in his lifetime? how many times does he have to be taxed on the same money?

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What you propose is that the rich should be able to keep every single penny and not put back into the system. If you do not put back into the system the system breaks down.

How do you figure? If the heirs spend it, will taxes not be paid upon it?

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I don't understand how the GOP can argue government should never help anyone advance, everyone should be working and advance on their own, and yet believe that the wealth of the fathers is entitled to the kids. This is a flaw because it's the same as welfare only it is familial welfare.

Nobody says that the inheritance has to be left to the kids. The person who made the money can do whatever they want with it, because it's THEIR MONEY. Well, at least until they die, and then it's the GOVERNMENT's money. Why should dying be a taxable event?

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Case in point: when I got out of the Navy I hung with a group and we called ourselves the Country Club Boys. One of the guys, mother had died and left him roughly a 2 million dollar trust fund (his father worked for IDS and so it was well invested for him, in CDs, blue chips and annuities). He lived off of it.

Did he ever work? no, he put it up his nose, spent it on golf, alcohol, weed, friends and whatever. He never put it into small businesses for any growth, he never started his own business, was it in any way put back into the system to help someone else? No, he wasted it, no way did it advance society.

Wait, I thought you said that rich people never put the money back into the system? If he blew the money, he most certainly DID spend it. As the saying goes: "A fool and his money are soon partying."

He spent the money the way he wanted to. It most certainly DID go back into the system. It just didn't go directly into the government coffers. And the people who owned hte golf range, or produced the alcohol, they didn't benefit from his busiiness?

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My feeling is that if the government helped you in any way, you owe them a portion of your wealth.

One man's hands do not belong in another man's pocket. Even if YOU think it's a "worthy cause".

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If you did it all yourself, never got a college loan, never took a small business loan or tax deduction, never took anything at all from the government then perhaps you could argue (and rightfully so) that you owe the government nothing.

So government loans (with interest), et cetera, are not required to be paid by the estate before the remainder is disbursed to the heirs? Where did you get your CPA from again?

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I look at it like this, the government is there to help people advance and better themselves, when those people do, they have a moral and legal obligation to repay the help and allow the government to help others advance. Not hoard it all and thumb their nose at those who helped them.

It's like this, as I go through school on government loans, grants and scholarships, and I become successful in my occupation, my drive had a lot to do with it, BUT my drive was enhanced by the government helping me get my start.

And the government will most certainly get their pound of flesh out of you BEFORE YOU DIE. Let me put it to you this way. Suppose you work hard and save a hundred million dollars. With me so far? Suppose you know you are going to die, and arrange to get that 100 million dollars in $100 bills to use as fuel for your funeral pyre. The pyre is ignited, your body is destroyed, the 100 million bucks is gone "POOF" in a puff of greasy smoke. What's your tax liability? ZERO, since you're not passing it on. Now suppose, just suppose, that you give it to your kids so they can buy booze, play golf, or do whatever. Why should your estate have to pay a bunch of it to the government when if you had wasted it for no good reason you wouldn't? Are you TRYING to encourage conspicuous consumption? If you can't leave it to your kids, why save it at all?

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It's the same as if I were to recieve help from a friend or family member, by my belief system I would feel the need to repay them for their belief in me. By repaying, they in turn can help another....or I could help another, if they are not there to repay. Government should be seen the same way.

My, my, my. That sounds almost like a religious philosophy. What happened to the separation of church and state?

If you die with outstanding student loans, your estate MUST pay them back WITH INTEREST before a dime is disbursed to the heirs. Same deal with bankruptcy. Most student loans are not dischargable under bankruptcy law. Why? Because the government WILL get it's money back, even if it means seizing your tax return checks. People pay into the government coffers throughout their lives. If they earn income, they are taxed. If they have a capital gain, they are taxed. If they buy something, they are taxed. So by what possible rationale is DEATH a taxable event?

pan6467 · 07-12-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosenose

So people without life insurance shouldn't be buried?

Actually, it's more of your father having a right to do what he wants with what is left. If he doesn't want you to have it, fine. He can give it to the government or to charity or whatever.

So he didn't pay income tax, et cetera on the money he made in his lifetime? how many times does he have to be taxed on the same money?

How do you figure? If the heirs spend it, will taxes not be paid upon it?

Nobody says that the inheritance has to be left to the kids. The person who made the money can do whatever they want with it, because it's THEIR MONEY. Well, at least until they die, and then it's the GOVERNMENT's money. Why should dying be a taxable event?

Wait, I thought you said that rich people never put the money back into the system? If he blew the money, he most certainly DID spend it. As the saying goes: "A fool and his money are soon partying."

He spent the money the way he wanted to. It most certainly DID go back into the system. It just didn't go directly into the government coffers. And the people who owned hte golf range, or produced the alcohol, they didn't benefit from his busiiness?

One man's hands do not belong in another man's pocket. Even if YOU think it's a "worthy cause".

So government loans (with interest), et cetera, are not required to be paid by the estate before the remainder is disbursed to the heirs? Where did you get your CPA from again?

And the government will most certainly get their pound of flesh out of you BEFORE YOU DIE. Let me put it to you this way. Suppose you work hard and save a hundred million dollars. With me so far? Suppose you know you are going to die, and arrange to get that 100 million dollars in $100 bills to use as fuel for your funeral pyre. The pyre is ignited, your body is destroyed, the 100 million bucks is gone "POOF" in a puff of greasy smoke. What's your tax liability? ZERO, since you're not passing it on. Now suppose, just suppose, that you give it to your kids so they can buy booze, play golf, or do whatever. Why should your estate have to pay a bunch of it to the government when if you had wasted it for no good reason you wouldn't? Are you TRYING to encourage conspicuous consumption? If you can't leave it to your kids, why save it at all?

My, my, my. That sounds almost like a religious philosophy. What happened to the separation of church and state?

If you die with outstanding student loans, your estate MUST pay them back WITH INTEREST before a dime is disbursed to the heirs. Same deal with bankruptcy. Most student loans are not dischargable under bankruptcy law. Why? Because the government WILL get it's money back, even if it means seizing your tax return checks. People pay into the government coffers throughout their lives. If they earn income, they are taxed. If they have a capital gain, they are taxed. If they buy something, they are taxed. So by what possible rationale is DEATH a taxable event?

I really see no need to reply until you can debate me with respect. I showed you respect and did not talk down to you as you have me.

smooth · 07-12-2005, 07:48 PM

Pan, I think your points outlined above are well-stated and I share your perspective.
I'm off to drive to Oregon, I'll see you all when I see yah...

pan6467 · 07-12-2005, 08:28 PM

Smooth take care and drive carefully

loganmule · 07-12-2005, 09:00 PM

I concur with the sentiments expressed by Smooth, Pan. As for Moosenose, and his innapropriate vitriol aside, he simply failed to provide any rationale in opposition to the various points which you made.

Moosenose, let me ask that you address the central issue in this thread, which is whether the estate tax is so patently unfair, when viewed in the context of all other "unfair" taxes, that it should be done away with at the cost of having to pick up the lost tax revenue somewhere else.

As was already pointed out, under the current estate tax structure a multimillionaire decedent will leave a multimillion dollar estate for his heirs, and the 99% or more of us who aren't multimillionaires won't pay anything. Again, I invite you to explain (in a civil manner please) how this result is so inequitable, as compared with other taxes imposed upon us, to compel estate tax repeal.

*

07-12-2005, 07:48 PM	#44 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Pan, I think your points outlined above are well-stated and I share your perspective. I'm off to drive to Oregon, I'll see you all when I see yah... __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

07-12-2005, 08:28 PM	#45 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Smooth take care and drive carefully __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

07-12-2005, 09:00 PM	#46 (permalink)
loganmule Junkie Location: midwest	I concur with the sentiments expressed by Smooth, Pan. As for Moosenose, and his innapropriate vitriol aside, he simply failed to provide any rationale in opposition to the various points which you made. Moosenose, let me ask that you address the central issue in this thread, which is whether the estate tax is so patently unfair, when viewed in the context of all other "unfair" taxes, that it should be done away with at the cost of having to pick up the lost tax revenue somewhere else. As was already pointed out, under the current estate tax structure a multimillionaire decedent will leave a multimillion dollar estate for his heirs, and the 99% or more of us who aren't multimillionaires won't pay anything. Again, I invite you to explain (in a civil manner please) how this result is so inequitable, as compared with other taxes imposed upon us, to compel estate tax repeal. *