powerclown

.....No clue what that means, either.
Even the best Cuban food is in Miami.

chickentribs

There were more homeless on the streets last night in New York because Bloomberg closed down another shelter, maybe they would be interested.

Obviously the misery in Cuba is in large part due to the U.S. trade restrictions we refuse to ease up on because Castro never gave in and said he was sorry about hiding the missles a generation ago. Is it easier to seperate church and state when you decide to keep your choke hold on other countries and deny food and medicine to millions of people? If trade sanctions were placed against the state of Florida, you better believe people would be jumping on boats out of Florida to the Carolinas and Alabama in no time.

Isn't it ironic that Castro would give anything for the US to actually be the capitalist, free market economic system that people seem to believe in so strongly? He would become the next Ayn Rand!

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

stevo

So its the US's fault. Everything is.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Ustwo

Misery in Cuba? I thought being in Cuba would 'dramaticly' improve the lives of some Americans.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

powerclown

I'm confused.

Are you saying that its preferable to be miserable in warm weather than in cold weather?

chickentribs

I didn't say that - I was just using the example to point out our government is heavily involved with manipulating trade and controlling money supply and the cost of money, and yes even wields it as a weapon of significant proportion. Free trade is a myth, and the socialist influence over our money has grown exponentially in the last 4 1/2 years. The federal government has grown 40%, power (money and law) is being taken from the states and moved to D.C. every day, and they have all but eliminated the barrier for federal agents to move with autonomy and without regard for state law based on the Patriot Act. What part of Socialism are we missing?? Which branch of the Republican Party wanted to consolidate powers at the federal level and make the White House the largest financial drain on our ability to export goods competitively in the world market? I am not being hostile, I would really like to know if that is the agenda you agree with as a Republican.
To keep this on point, let me say that the fear of a new economic system is unfounded because we have created policy around money since the first tax was collected and the first road was built. We tax alcohol and cigarettes at increasing levels for "public good" to create an artificial hinderance. To have the government step in and do that with gasoline as they are doing in Norway doesn't strike me as being any different than that.

And yes, if I was going to be homeless I would take warm weather any day.
It wasn't my statement in terms of the dramatic improvement, but if the US opens up trade, a lot of "capitalist" will be on the first planes over to Havana because of the opportunities that exist for business. The market for wheat and corn alone is tremendous, yet we would rather the government pay our farmers subsidies (country welfare) to compensate for crops that go to waste. It's a shame.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

host

The CIA publishes the following information about Cuba. To some people, especially the ones in the U.S. who have aids, or contribute via their deaths to the 14 percent higher annual deaths per thousand inhabitants, living in Cuba could be more advantageous than living in the U.S. Your tax dollars helped the CIA to fund the information that I'm posting here.

It appears that Cuba is a better place to live compared to Iraq, or Afghanistan or to residing in some U.S. inner city or rural locales. Why is there such an angry and taunting reaction to comparisons of the quality of life in the U.S. vs. other societies with other political and economic systems? The CIA data refutes the argument that those worst off in the U.S. are still better off than the lower echelon in Cuba. Consider that poor women in labor, people with a high risk of contracting aids, and working poor with no health insurance who find themselves or their children ill or injured, political ideology and nationalistic fervor do not care as much as you do about defending absolutes distilled to "U.S. good", "Cuba bad".
Here are the infant mortality rate statistics on an island near Cuba that has a recent history of much U.S. "influence":
The simplistic, absolutist nature of the objections to discussion on this thread, when placed up against a comparison of infant mortality rates that occur on neighboring West Indies islands, IMO, expose the misaligned priorities of the objectors, especially the priority towards the lives of the newly born.

In terms of purchasing power parity, the U.S. seems indifferent to devoting economic resources to the goal of lowering it's mortality rates and rates of infectious disease. Cuba, very poor comparitively, seems to have it's economic priorities in order, managing a parity in key measures of health with one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Isn't a reliable measure of a successful and healthful society observed in birth and population mortality rates?

roachboy

when i wrote this yesterday (i think):

i had in mind nonsense like the preceding "critiques" of cuba.
in particular that there is no requirement that anyone on teh right have the faintest idea what they are talking about, no need to present the slightest information: cuba is commie and therefore bad in every way.

i am not a particular fan of castro--but i woudl doubt seriously that any of the conservative folk above could prove--were they to decide for a minute on the subject of the left that proof was actually required--that the american sanctions of cuba have not gone a long long way to creating the conditions that they complain about--complain without actually producing any information, of course.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

chickentribs

Staying with the idea of the thread, I found a quick, simple half page article on Cuba and Communism if anybody is interested. Castro overthrew a corrupt regime in '59, and to survive as a country they needed to adopt a political system that sacrificed the good of the individual for the good of the whole. With few natural resources and trade cut off from 90% of the world, capitalism couldn't work if he wanted to feed the citizens of Cuba. Also, he did institute national education and healthcare and they have survived.

Did this happen at the expense of human rights violations and autocratic rule? Yeah. But think - there is a reason corporations don't operate as democracies, there may be situations that one leader is required...

http://www.tulane.edu/~rouxbee/kids98/cuba2.html

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

filtherton

Why all the irrational hatred for cuba? Castro at his worst is probably still a little better than the leaders of many of the countries we currently ally ourselves with. If you pay attention to the history of labor struggles, or the history of america in general, and compared the horrible things our economic system has done to our citizens with what castro has done to cuban citizens you wouldn't find much of a difference in terms of repsect for human rights. I'm not ignoring the positive aspects of each, just pointing out that american capitalism can be just as averse to human rights as cuba has been.

Host sums it up nicely, though.

Ustwo

Ummm did I 'hate' cuba? Where is the 'irrational' bit? What 'horrible things' has our economic system done to our citizens?

So basicly what you said about people 'whose quality of life would dramatically increase' if they moved to cuba is not true.

Far as I can tell, host didn't say anything.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

Slavery's a big one, its echoes can still be felt in our society. The forces of capitalism were downright murderous when it came to worker's rights in the first half of the last century. Then there was the whole "stealing and genocide" thing with the indians and stuff. I remember something about treaties that were broken so the market could get unfettered access when the american authorities mistakenly allocated land for reservations that wasn't completely worthless. I heard a story once about american naval vessels off the coast of japan in an attempt to force the country to open its borders to american trade under the threat of artillery(not directed at our own citizens, but illustrative of the moral character of capitalism).

You don't need my permission to believe whatever you want to believe. Though i am shocked that you, of all people, would expect someone to retract a statement made on the tfp politics board.

You first must read the information before you can make claims about its irrelevance.

moosenose

Well, damn. Hate to tell you this, but Cuban children BELONG to the Cuban Government. And I recently recall that Cuba raised it's standard wage to something like $10 US...a MONTH, not an hour.

I also recall that Cuba has to ration the little things...like MILK. Yeah, boy, they sure as hell imported a lot of milk from the US before the embargo...

Welcome to America...where the poor underclasses manage to afford drug habits that cost hundreds of dollars a week...

host

It may interest other readers to know that the CIA, in it's "World Factbook" stats regarding Cuba display a yearly average per capita income of (in U.S. dollars) of $3,000 per year. This is equivalent to $250.00 per month.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/cu.html

If there is wide spread rationing of milk in Cuba, it is not affecting mortality rates. The median age in Cuba is 35.36 years, and 36.27 years in the U.S., yet the mortality rate in Cuba is 14% lower than in the U.S., 7.19 deaths per thousand in Cuba, vs. 8.25 deaths in the U.S.

Milk rationing is not affecting infant moratlity rates either, with the overall rate in Cuba of 6.33 deaths per thousand live births, vs. 6.50 deaths in the U.S., especially considering that the average per capita income in the U.S. is $40,100
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html

The Castro government, with so little economic wealth, appears to be managing a medical miracle, compared not only to U.S. moratlity statistics, but also to the two countries that occupy a neighboring island, Dominican Republic with an infant mortality rate of 32.28 deaths per thousand live births, and the infant mortality rate in Haiti of 73.45 deaths per thousand live births.

Maybe if children in Haiti and Dominican Republic "belong to the government", they would be more likely to at least survive into early chidlhood. They seem to die in great numbers without ever knowing that they are not residing under a communist economic system/government. Or is there an argument that they "are better dead than red"? The U.S. military killed a couple of million Vietnamese before that argument was determined by U.S. political leaders to not be worth what it was costing in blood, money, morale, political capital, and in U.S. international standing.

stevo

Where's NCB in all this? His view on cuba are always right on.

if you love cuba so much, host, why don't you emmigrate?

I think your view of the 'republican agenda' is a tad skewed and mostly wrong. but keep on keepin on brotha'.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

filtherton

I hate to tell you this, but milk is not essential to a healthy existence. Even so, america rations health care, which do you think is more important? I would imagine that wages matter less than overall quality of life. Do you have any information about the quality of life of the average cuban citizen?

I'd be interested in where you get the idea that cuban children belong to the government.

As a more general question to whomever cares to answer, i also wonder why cuba gets such a bad rap, while china, no stranger to communism and civil rights abuses gets most favored nation trade status?

Welcome to america... where every college educated two-breadwinner middle class family living the american dream is one serious health problem away from poverty. Thanks free market for keeping in tune with that great american ideal--"Every person has the opportunity, through hard work and perseverance, to achieve whatever they want, unless someone in their immediate family happens to come down with a serious illness, in which case they're fucked".

chickentribs

Hey Stevo - "Keepin' on" is all I know!
Let me ask you just a quick couple of questions about how my view is wrong. I grew up in a generations deep republican family. Military all over my father's side, midwest working-class on my mom's. I hated Carter, loved Regan (mostly), and was ok with Bush I. To keep this brief - the 3 reasons I was Republican were:

1. Small Federal Govt. - this to me was the base idea for Republicans. A large fed meant laws and budgets would be managed by people who had never stepped foot in my state. Inneffective, "Big Gov't" wasting my tax dollars. Push the power and money to the states.

2. Conservative Fiscal Policies - Conservative doesn't mean spend little, it means you don't influence monetary cycles. The Fed makes small adjustments infrequently to prevent inflation and to ensure the value of the US currency worldwide. Regan used to joke that he had only one lunch with Greenspan in 8 years - the day he appointed him. Since the election in November, Greenspan has had to raise interest rates 6 times because he wasn't allowed to raise them slowly over the last 2 1/2 years like we should have. We can't even give away T-bills on the world market because everyone knows they will lose 20% over the next year out of the gate. Add in our money supply issue and even Japan won't return our calls.

3. Corporate Protection - I admit it, I bought into "Trickle Down Economics". I thought unions were whiners and doomsayers. "The corporations don't have your interests at heart, don't trust them, they will dip into your pension funds, they will do mass layoffs, they will move operations overseas, and they will do it with the government's blessing." It sounds so naive now - The tax breaks go to the corporations so they can re-invest in the future, nay, YOUR future! See, kid... we give the money to the wealthy 1% and than when they spend it, it will trickle, trickle, trickle, down to the rest of you.

Eh, I was young.

I still think I am right about the first 2 points though. I have just been waiting for a Republican to walk me through how either 1 and 2 are no longer ideology of the Republican party, and when that changed. OR, that 1 and 2 are what being republican is all about, and here's what you, chickentribs, are missing that is going on.

I hope that this comes across sincere, because it is. And, Stevo, I hope that you reply and point out what I misunderstand. In lieu of Stevo I would be interested in your opinions Ustwo, or Moosenose, or Powerclown, or anyone... Thanks!

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

moosenose

Well, I do know that Cubans do routinely flee their home country on rickety boats and inner tubes. Haven't heard a whole lot about Americans doing that, unless you count the so-called "Americans" who supposedly fled to Canada after the 2004 election...

Isn't that in their Constitution?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm no fan of China, which is why I was so pissed when Clinton gave them the missile technology...

I've known a fair number of lower middle class people who had health problems, and didn't end up destitute. An example of this is a friend's father, who had quadruple heart bypass surgery. He's fine, and they're not broke. Of course, they didn't go to college, maybe that's why they're OK.

filtherton

Do you have any information regarding the quality of life of the average cuban citizen?

You've read it? By all means don't be afraid to post a link.

This evidence isn't quite as anectdotal as you may prefer, but...
http://www.soundmedicine.iu.edu/segment.php4?seg=460

Here's the actual study:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...haff.w5.63/DC1

It's kind of long, and i don't want to waste space with actual scientific information that could otherwise be filled with knee-jerk nationalism so i'll just post the first part:

Hardknock

Host, do you ever post your own words?

Elphaba

Many times, during the short time I have been here.

filtherton

Did you just skip over this whole thread or what?

Ustwo

I'll be happy to get to the other points when you explain where I hated cuba or was irrational.

Or were you just making noise?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

filtherton

You seemed shocked at the idea that any group of americans would be better off living in cuba. It came accross as some kind of irrational anticommunist knee-jerk reaction. My apologies if that was not your intention.

Now, please explain to me how there is no subset of american citizens who would perhaps live a better existence in cuba.

drewg

I usually just browse these boards for updates on the lates political issues in the US, but as the economic system of my own country came up in this discussion I felt like contributing for once .

Yeah, there are some who live near the Swedish border. We call them the Harry*-shoppers. They drive several hours to save a few crowns (kroner) on alcohol and meat because Sweden (a country much more suited for agriculture) has cheaper meat, and while alcohol is also quite heavily taxed in Sweden, it's not as heavily taxed as in Norway. The Swedish Crown is also worth slightly less than the Norwegian (10 Swedish are worth about 9 Norwegian) While it is not a totaly uncommon practice, people who regularly go to Sweden to buy food are considered cheapskates.

(*Norwegian slang for corny)

Now, there are many different reasons why things in Norway are taxed as they are. The thing that foreigners usually finds the most shocking is the alcohol taxes. The average price for a shot (2cl if i remember correctly) of whiskey in a Norwegian bar is about 10$ and up. (10$ = about 63 Norwegian Crowns) A pint of beer is from 5$ and up, usually costs around 8 or 9 dollars. The reason for this tax a historic unholy alliance between the labour movement and the born-again christian movement which both began in the latter part of the 1800's. Both movements saw the Norwegian drinking culture and widespread alcoholism as a major problem and one of the greatest obstacles to ending poverty. So both movements preached abstinece, and later when both movements had become major parties in the Norwegian Congress (Stortinget) they prohibited the sale of alcohol for a few years, before creating a state controlled alcohol monopoly (Vinmonopolet) and introducing heavy taxes to all alcoholic beverages (as well as eventually making advertisement for alcohol illegal).The alcohol taxes are quite unpopular and moonshine is common outside the major cities, but so far only the far right "Progress Party" is interested in cutting them, as most Norwegians have no problem paying what it costs to get drunk.

And that's really why it is so expencive to live in Norway, because in most cases, we can afford it. Food costs quite a bit as toll barriers protect the Norwegian farmers who expect to be paid according to a national average, even though the climate and the landscape of Norway is not exactly suited for farming. If it wasn't for the toll barriers there would be next to no land based foodproduction in Norway and the Norwegian countryside would be left to overgrow, and Norway would be extreamly vulnerable to food blockades, as it has indeed been in the past (esp. during the Great Nordic Wars 1700-1721 and the Napoleonic Wars).

We pay about 30something% and up in a typical progressive tax system. Less taxes for the poor, more taxes for the rich. It's quite a lot, but then again we have well funded public schools and free health care, and a generous welfare system.

My countrys economic system is far from perfect, but from in my current situation (20 year old university student) I'm thankfull for the generous statebacked student loan which togeather with a small part-time job gives me full financial independence as well as a "little extra" for luxury and entertainment.

(I hope there aren't too many gramatical errors and spelling errors, as it's 4am here and I have a slight dyslexia)

tecoyah

Thank You drewg.....great to have the insight.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Elphaba

Anyone who wishes to belittle your spelling, Drewg, should be required to do so in your language. I'm of Norwegian heritage, but I doubt I spell "uffda" correctly.

Thank you for your input. There is an adversion to considering comprehensive health care for all citizens in this country. Small businesses like myself and megasized corporations are expected to carry the health care load for the employed. The unemployed have some stop gap measures that we all pay for. Just a bit of financial analysis would likely justify a national health plan.

But I can be silly with logic and that dang analysis stuff.