Ilow

I don't have a personal issue with it, but as he was a more radical influence I could see there being even more issues with Malcolm X than TJ. Truthfully though it really does beg the question what makes a person appropriate for school naming, should they be a pacifist, a gadfly, a dreamer, an inventor, what? I do appreciate you calling me to task on it though, as I don't have some great reason for singling him out, it just struck me as a more polarizing influence for some reason.

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Manx

It's interesting to consider Thomas Jefferson and Malcom X.

As some have stated in this thread, Jefferson should be considered less of an ideal than he is based on his stated, but not personally implemented opposition to slavery. In essence, the concept that Jefferson was weak willed.

In contrast, Malcolm X progressed from near-militancy, major polarization in race relations to full on openness. The man, a major figure, humbled himself by truly learning a lesson and fully following through with his new understanding. As a result, he faced major consequences that he did not shy away from. Such a rare feat in humanity.

There are not enough schools named for Malcolm X.

smooth

I actually thought "pink" was a reference to effeminate.

So pinkier would be ==gayer or something

maybe it's leftist, but I thought that was red

red == commie
pink == effeminate

or the two are equated somehow as in commie == effeminate

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Mojo_PeiPei

Well the left does largely support gay rights... effeminate commies?

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raveneye

I also see no problem with changing the name of the school, if that's what the teachers, parents, and students want.

But this does raise some interesting political questions. For example: what sort of names are we as a society obligated to change as we change our perceptions of historical figures and events? Do we include place names as well? There are a lot of cities and counties named "Jefferson" in the U.S. Why is it that this issue divides liberals and conservatives? Liberals tend to have no problem with recognizing and acknowledging slave ownership, while conservatives seem to perceive this as anti-American.

And do we restrict ourselves to American/European figures? Take for example Seattle. Chief Seattle, as a leader and warrior, (1) was a slave owner; (2) almost certainly did not believe there was anything wrong with having slaves; (3) actually led slave-capturing raids; (4) was polygamous; (5) killed a lot of innocent people, including massacring an entire village for the sole reason to maintain his status and honor; and (6) did all this pretty much as a contemporary of Jefferson, or even more recently. What if the relatives of Seattle's victims put together a petition to change the name of Seattle, because they felt degraded by living in a city that honored this murderer? Not very many of these people have survived, so this petition might not have very many names on it. But it might have the names of virtually 100% of the surviving relatives. Should the name then be changed?

You could argue that all these relatives' ancestors also had slaves and were just as murderous as Seattle. But then you could also argue that the African ancestors of those black teachers who want to do away with "Jefferson" were also barbaric slave owners. History is full of ironies, it seems pointless to hold people accountable who were not alive at the time.

So if all it takes to obligate us to change a name is that descendents of victims want it changed, then I would argue that we should be doing a lot of name changing in this country.

stevo

Personally, I think its retarted to change the name. Why stop there. What about the thousands of other schools named "Jefferson"? What about the hundreds of counties and towns across the country? Should they change their name as well.

This didn't come about because someone was offended by the name Jefferson. It came about because someone was scarred someone would be offended. Thats the whole problem with PC.

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zen_tom

You guys live in a democracy, a democracy that the founding Fathers created.

Democracy allows people to make decisions based on majority concensus. Jefferson himself would have supported the notion of allowing people to vote democratically on what to name thier local school, wouldn't he?

Or should we somehow restrict democracy sometimes?

Lebell

I have already addressed this.

There is a difference between learning lessons from history (presumably in order not to repeat them) and holding on to the hurt of the past.

Some examples of the latter include:

Southerners and the civil war: Cries of "The South will Rise Again!" still ring out, almost 150 years after they lost and in some parts of the south you will still get the **it kicked out of you for being a yankee.

Slavery: Closely related to the above, people who are 4 generations or more removed from slavery are still incensed about it and hold it against those who are also 4 or more generations removed from it (whether their ancestors held slaves or not).

Columbus and the American Indians: This is one of my personal favorites as the American Indian Movement regularly clashes with the Sons of Italy in Denver during the latter's attempt to hold their annual Columbus Day parade. Over 500 years since the man crossed the Atlantic and they want to put all the sins of medieval Europe on him.

And finally the oldest (that I know of) and perhaps the most deadly: The Crusades and the Middle east: They are still pissed off about what happened approximately 800 years ago. It is important to acknowledge that the region has undergone huge political turmoil (especially in the last 200 years or so), but this is the start and OBL still cites in order to get followers. This tradition of holding onto a grudge has kept the blood flowing in the region even when it is in the best interest of all parties to stop the killing.

(There is of course much I have left out which I acknowledge here.)

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Charlatan

Lebell... I agree with you on this.

We have lessons to learn from the past BUT dwelling on the past means you cannot move on.

Moving on and building something new is essential.

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Manx

I agree that lebell is whitewashing history.

I'll choose just one of his examples, a personal favorite no less:

Columbus came to America by accident and ended up enslaving and killing untold numbers of human beings. Italians celebrate Columbus for "discovering" America. Neo-nazi's celebrate Hitler for discovering racial superiority. Now, you could justify the celebration of Columbus by stating that back in the 1400's, it was normal and acceptable to enslave and murder human beings if they didn't look and act like you. But if we start using that method of justification, ANYTHING in history can be justified, excused and finally dismissed as irrelevent.

It is for the express reason that there continue to be people who believe it is acceptable to whitewash history by claiming that their personal judgement of normality in the scope of history is the best means of judging history, as you have done (Columbus = worthy of celebration, Hitler = unworthy of celebration, so speaketh lebell), that there will and should continue to be people who bring up the reality of history.

For years and years, schools did not teach the reality that Columbus was an asshole. Progressively, that information has been brought into schooling. Now, by claiming the American Indian Movement needs to "let go of the hurt from the past", you are suggesting that this information about Columbus should no longer be provided while the information worthy of celebration should.

roachboy

it seems to me that one should be able to accomodate both those elements of the past that are problematic and those that are less so--in the instance of jefferson, i see no problem with including a number of angles in constructing a view of the guy--after all, given that this is allegedly a democracy (in form only, but tant pis) it seems not a problem to understand jefferson and all the others involved with enframing the system as human beings not Great Prophets who Bring Important Stuff Down From the Mount--the founders were human beings operating in a complex, constridictory situation like any of us does--they set up a system that in very basic ways assumed cuh was the case fro not only themselves but for every generation--if there is a problem with accomodating ugly facts with the Heroic Myth, the problem lay with the nature, function and content of the myth, not with the complexity of the past.

such myths are worthless in a democracy. they amount to an attempt to deny effective history, that it continues--instead there is an Originary Moment that reframes history--the people who operated in that situation grappled with the complexity of being in history so that you, subsequently--dont have to. nothing could be further from the notion of democracy than that--nothing could be more directly contradictory with the notion of democracy than that.

does this mean that there is nothing anywhere to be admired? of course not: but it does mean that admiration canot be confused with worship.

as for the massive, inescapable problems that lurk for a hero-worshipping notion of american history--like the genocide of the native americans, like teh slave trade, like the brutalities visited upon massees of people by the variant of capitalism the americans have developed--i say too bad for the heroes--better than people look, and carefully, and critically, at these problems in order to figure out such basic things as how were they possible, how was consent for them engineered in order to maybe be in a better position to prevent such atrocities from being repeated--with parallel types of consent.

of the two basic possibilities presented here: the preference for Heros and a more distanced, critical view i would think the second more useful, more open to taking in complexity and not simply to talking about complexity. the same could be said about those aspects of being in the states that one might enjoy, might endorse.

what makes this general question operational to me is that you have a whitewshed, myopic version of history being floated from aspects of the american right--its function in this context is clear--effective history began and ende with the founders--now you live in a hierarchical society about which you can do and say nothing. for the most part, what folk on the gingrich and lynne cheney lines are advocating is a flight from history, a flight from self-criticism--and with that a flight from anything apporaching informed, meaingful participation in a democratic process--toward a more authoritarian form of rule within which everyone talks about democracy by divine mandate, engages in debates reduced to matters of opinion--behind which the holders of economic and political power can do as they like.

this is why the question of conservative ideology in general comes into to discussions about the nature and role of history, even as it plays out across the question of the name of this berkeley school.

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roachboy

one other point: the attempt to reduce the understanding of fascism to the workings of a single evil individual is of a piece with the attempt undertaken largely by the americans since world war 2 to dissociate nationalism from fascism. it reduces the questions about the nature, causes and functions of fascism to a singel case--germany--the problems to those caused by a single individual--hitler--and with that evacuates the entire question--which was in fact central to fascism in all its variants--of the use of nationalism as a fundamental mobilizing signifier and the manipulation of this signifier through mass media (in germany, the primary--though not exclusive--medium was radio)

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Lebell

Manx,

I would be very interested in reading a new thread in which you outline what you believe to be the sins of Columbus

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Manx

If you want a discussion, you go ahead and read what I posted and then start a new thread with your response.

I've said my part.

The lock, the warning, the accusation that I flamed Christopher Columbus - I consider those to be absurd. But rest assured - I'll be sure to toe your personal line from now on lebell.