CShine

So sez Ann Coulter. Could she be right?


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/a...20050317.shtml

Antikarma

My wife would kick Anne Coulter's ass if she saw that. And any other male cop that was dumb enough to agree.

/lives with police recruit....
//no, I don't get to play with the handcuffs....

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Seaver

Someone tell Ann to STFU already.

That "inferior" female officer was 52 escorting a strong young male who was uncuffed.

This was a problem of a retarded Sherrif or DA, not of sexual prowess.

braisler

Male or female, if a guard is not capable of defending themselves then they shouldn't be serving... or at very least not carrying a gun. What if the defendant had overpowered an armed elderly male guard? Same result, opposite gender.

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You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.
- Albert Einstein
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Superbelt

The problem was an underfunded court system that forced that female cop to be in close proximity to this guy and not remove her gun.

Gilda

At best, Coulter's evidence indicates that small, older cops shoulldn't be escorting uncuffed large men by themselves. Change her sex wouldn't have prevented this. Having the suspect cuffed and a second guard present would have.

I've seen my SO--5' 9" and 135 lbs.--accidentally break a man's wrist in Tae Kwon Do class, and throw 200 lb. men around.

Sex is irrelevant. Not following proper prodedures--keeping a prisoner accused of a violent felony cuffed and being escorted by two guards--is what caused this.

NCB

huh??

Are you suggesting that only women would take that job because of it's low pay?

BTW....the problem was that an evil SOB took advantage of another human being and mercilessly killed other human beings because he could. Don't blame the GA taxpayers

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Antikarma

He said 'THAT' female cop, not 'A' female cop.

Just sayin', ya knows?

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Superbelt

I have NO idea how you pulled that out of what I typed.

I'll blame the GA courty system that underfunded that court so that there weren't enough deputies there to safely transport prisoners.

NCB

Sure, but where does this underfunding thing come in?

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NCB

How do you know there weren't? Do you know what the normal procedures are? Don't be so quick to make it political and say they were underfunded. That's knee jerk thinking remincent of A nameless other. But seriously, I think it may have been a lapse in procedure

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Superbelt

Underfunding.

Less deputies on duty.
Less deputies means not all necessary jobs are filled.
-Someone had to escort this guy. There weren't enough deputies to escort him and keep proper security at the same time. This resulted in a deputy, with a gun, in reaching distance of a prisoner.
-Security measures that keep an armed deputy at least ten feet from any prisoner are absolute rules basically everywhere else in the country.

Willravel

This is the real tragety.

For the article: my wife has her 4th dregrre black belt along with a class of 23 other women in tae kwando (thanks to West Coast Martial Arts fopr an excelent "womens self defence class"). No "200-pound former linebacker" could have wrestled anything from my wife but an ass kicking. The problem here is not with gender, but with the inferior training this woman had to work with. My mother is getting towards that age, and she can still raise hell. With the right training, my mother could easily kill someone, even a "200-pound former linebacker". I'm pretty sure the whole thing was Ann Coulter's fault. Listening to her brings out some primal rage in most reasonable people, and it's possible that Brian Nichols was watching oir listening to Ann Coulter before he went on this terrible killing rampage.

Superbelt

After the incident, interviews with people who worked at the courthouse and others made plenty of comments about security at the courthouses being very low because of underfunding by the state.

Superbelt

Yes, getting back to the subject.
Ann is an evil skank.

ironmaiden7o7

That should've never happened but it did, and they need to work on making their system stronger now. Just imagine how bad it's getting if they're killing in courtrooms now. There is a lot that needs to be done.

NCB

The underfunding argument is a cop out. More money would not have guarenteed a male escort. That's silly. I think the problem was procedural: Female deputies shopuld not escort male prsioners. But in saying that, one runs the risk of being called sexist.

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Superbelt

Not arguing there should have been a male escort.

There should have been an unarmed escort leading him and an armed escort who has to maintain a minimum of 10 feet away.

If they had that this whole thing wouldn't have happened.

Nichols wouldn't have had a gun to grab, and if he made any trouble there's a distant deputy ready to take him down.
More money would have given them that.

dksuddeth

yet one more reason to consider ann coulter an example of rampant insanity

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

squirrelyburt

I don't think its not so much the question about underfunding, it's about the early warning signs they had on this guy and the lack of tactics and pre-planning which created this incident. I know a lot of officers, both male and female, who due to their complacency, are dangerous not only to themselves but to others. Nichols had been found with shanks hidden in his shoes last week...must have forgot about that one...

Another problem I see is at the agency decision making level and whoever diceided it was ok for this obvious difference in size and gender. Tactics and proactive thinking aside, there are undeniable differences here, I'm thinking age and size being the major factors. Even if the deputy had training and attitude, I doubt this would have turned out any other way. Terrible way to learn a hard lesson.

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If you've ever felt there was a reason to be afraid of the dark, you were right.

guy44

Look, Ann "Raving Lunatic" Coulter has also suggested that we should invade every Muslim country in order to forcibly convert everyone to Christianity and wrote a book defending Joseph McCarthy.

She's either insane or just discovered that she can make bucketloads by being as crazy-out-there-controversial as possible.

So let's not take anything she has ever said, ever, in her whole life, seriously.

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"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Willravel

Can we deport Ann yet? I'm sure China would appreciate her sense of humor.

NCB

Two things that drive the left up the wall:

[IMG][/IMG]

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Superbelt

Not many people outside of freerepublic and the Limbaugh crowd would shed a tear to hear she has a terminal spinal tumor.

Is that crossing the line here? Is it ok to openly wish for her painful death?

Superbelt

What's that NCB? Ann and cheap housing?

flstf

I'm not saying that men are necessarily better cops than women but of course there are physical differences, that's why we have separate men and women sports. In general the women would not be able to compete with men, it's a matter of size and strength.

In this case, this guy would have probably had no problem overpowering a small 52 year old out of shape man just as easily.

alansmithee

If there is no difference between the physical capabilities of the sexes, why is domestic abuse any different from assault and battery? I don't know if Coulter is right about this specific case, but I know I would feel better if there was a male police officer present. I remember around 5 years (maybe longer) there was a show on 20/20 about the difference between the sexes. In Philadelphia (IIRC, it's been awhile) the fire department was not getting enough female firefighters. Why? Because one of the requirements was the ability to lift 150lbs over your shoulder. So what did they do? Changed that to the ability to drag the same weight. They also changed procedure so that instead of carrying people out of a fire, they would be DRAGGED.

Why is the idea that men in general are better at doing certain physically intensive tasks so offensive to the left?

The_Dunedan

OK.

First off, one has to consider that there is CONSIDERABLE physical and morphological difference between the sexes. The average Male outweighs the average Female by something around 40%, has 25% more skeletal muscle-mass, and that mass is comprised of "fast-jerk" muscles, designed to deliver explosive power over a short period. Females have mostly "slow jerk" muscles which deliver much less force, but much more consistantly and for much longer periods. This is why Females are better shots than Males ( on average ) with firearms, and why they able to compete "straight across" with male skiiers, snowboarders, etc etc. However, the result of the disparity in weight, muscle-mass, and muscle type means that the average Male is about 70% stronger than the average Female.

However, this fact imposes certain realities: namely that the AVERAGE Female can be more-or-less demolished by the AVERAGE Male without too much trouble on the Male's part. Martial Arts training can help mitigate ( or even eliminate ) this disparity; I wouldn't want to tackle Michelle Krasnoo or Laura Truley with anything short of a 12-bore. However, it must be remembered that most "martial arts" in the US today are focused much more on the "art" than the "martial" part. The training takes place in a tightly controlled environment, and the "victim" always knows that they're going to be attacked, and usually knows what form the attack will take; ergo, they are able to effectively defend against it. This handicaps practicioners of both sexes.

This is where firearms come into the picture. Of my dozen-ish students whom I have taught to shoot, only one has been Male. The rest have been Females who recognized the above facts and wished to be able to effectively defend themselves NOW, without going through the years of training it takes to fight like Laura Truley.

In a circumstance like this, the use of a Female deputy, ESPECIALLY by herself, was nothing short of madness. This is not to say that Females don't make good cops; if someone's a good cop they're a good cop. However, the idea that someone who was physically incapable of restraining a prisoner and RETAINING HER WEAPON ( something else I teach all my students and practice rigorously ) would be gaurding someone like this is pure, rank insanity.

raveneye

Has anybody encountered Joseph Wambaugh's reverse opinion that female cops are better than male cops?

Apparently he spoke before the LA city council in 1992 in favor of preferential hiring of female cops, saying they were superior to male cops. The council agreed, and hired more female cops.

Here's an editorial in the Seattle-Post Intelligencer from March 25:
(no link available)

daswig

So when more female cops are hired, and more shootings of citizens by female cops happen, are the Liberals going to not bitch and moan about those shootings, since they were the result of putting more women with guns out there?

Coulter's article says that shootings go up when there are more female cops out there. That makes some sense intellectually, since there are less options in the use of non-lethal force for a female cop than a male cop. Anybody care to rebut the studies she mentioned?

Why not attack her message instead of attacking her personally? That makes it at least appear that there's a counter-Coulter argument, instead of simple ad-homs due to the moral bankruptcy and indefensibility of one's position.

Willravel

Female police officers don't have to fall into the "average" ability or body type, as they can go through rigerous training in order to level the playing field.

Police offficers train in combat, not art. My wife trains in combat, not art. If you want art, there's plenty of Tai Chi to go around. Have you ever seen a 21 year old, thin woman disable 4 200+ pound men in under 30 seconds? I have. My wife even knows what moisturizers are good for the cracking and dryness that comes from repeated punching. God I love her.

Anyone who is properly trained (not 14 weeks at police academy, but several years in military combat training specificlly dealing with urban combat and hand to hand, weapons training, etc.), man or woman, could have dealt with that situation with relative ease. The average man cannot overpower a properly trained police officer.

Like I said before:
Baring a physical disability of some kind, this woman could have been trained to deal with this. The inferior training is to blame.

ShaniFaye

I would just like to point out, to those who dont know it, she wasnt armed....she had followed procedure and locked the gun away in a lock box. When he hit her (which he could have easily have done to a man as well) he stole her keys to the box, located it and stole the gun from there. She was not armed while she was transporting him.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

oktjabr

Rather hilarious to blame the commentary here as ad hominem attacks when Coulter uses phrases like "Liberals have proffered every possible explanation for this breakdown in security except the giant elephant in the room — who undoubtedly has an eating disorder and would appreciate a little support vis-a-vis her negative body image."

Yeah, Coulters articulate, civilized and serious argumentation deserves a reply worth of all rules of debate.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

daswig

So, are you saying that the studies she cites are invalid, or that they just don't matter?

oktjabr

I have no opinion about that - to be honest, I didn't even bother to read the whole article. As you might note, my remark really had nothing to do with the subject she was writing about.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

raveneye

OK, I'm happy to bite.

I took a look at the article that Coulter cites to support her assertion that more women results in more accidental shootings of civilians.

My opinion: overall, it is an excellent study, although I disagree with a lot of the statistical analysis (I am a statistician myself) and interpretation.

On the specific question of female officers and accidental shootings of civilians:

The author himself is not convinced of the relationship. He calls it "very preliminary". He does not even cite the relationship in either the abstract or the conclusions of the study. There are two reasons he is not convinced: first, the relationship is based only 24 datapoints. Second, the relationship is NOT statistically significant. The probability that it could have occurred purely by chance is about 9%, which is higher than the standard accepted threshold.

So: my judgment is that these data, while interesting and perhaps suggesting of the need for further study, are of practically no value in and of themselves.

And they are certainly not sufficient to justify a sanctimonious, sarcastic, self-congratulatory editorial in any respectable newspaper.

Here are the two paragraphs:


And here's the analysis table:

I have no idea how to format tables, but that 9.3% in the last line is the probability value of the associated two-tailed t-test.

matthew330

Ann Coulter, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and hehe - Noah McCullough.

**Hey Sweetheart, would you mind grabbing me a beer - I don't wanna miss this one.

It's moments like this that make me proud to be a republican. Do you realize how silly your reactions to these people make you look.

Willravel, what were 4 200+ pound men doing attacking your wife?

Oh okay - it was an exhibition. What movie was this:

a: Attack me with that knife!!

b: Okay **stabs at "a"

a: No with your right hand!!

b: **stabs at "a"

a: No in an up and down motion!!

b: Okay

a: (after successfully defending him/herself) "See - THAT'S how you defend yourself from a knife attack."

Willravel

Maybe you have the wrong idea. The teacher/sempi/whatever says to the 4 guys something to the effect of, "What I want you four to do is take down this woman in as litle moves as possible. Use whatever force is necessary." The four men, who were each between camo belt and maybe green belt got up to attack my wife. After the first one was taken down they each got more serious, but they each fell. This was teaching them the same lesson that some people in here might be having trouble with: with the right training, either gender can pose a serious physical threat. She can spar with me (I am a 5th degree in tae kwon do, as well as being moderatly trained in 4 other martial arts, and I'm learning Muay Thai) and sometimes beats the crap out of me. She is what I would call an expert fighter. I would say that she could easily handle an attack from 99.9% of people on the street. The operative word is "could". My wife and I are pacifists, so we wouldn't fight. The ability is there, though.

"But why are you taking martial arts if you're a pacifist?! That doesn't make any sense!!"

To clear this up before someone asks, in order to truely appreciate peace, you have to understand a lack of peace. If someone is a pacifist from birth, they will never have the same appreciation and understanding of peace as someone who understands both violence and peace. It's based in the teachings of the Tao-te-ching from Taoism.

matthew330

I don't remember anyone suggesting one gender in particular can't pose a serious physical threat, including Ann Coulter. Perhaps Miss Coulter's article would have taken a different, less offensive tone if she had had the benefit of seeing your wife spar in her dojo.... probably not, but you never know. If she had seen this, i'm sure she would feel differently. Yup, i'm conviced, nothing would suit Ann more than a terminal spinal tumor.

BTW, not long ago, in my very own neighborhood two police officers respond to a domestic dispute call. One is male, one is female (the male cop happened to be "the old" friend of a friend). The male police officer walks into the house with the female right behind him. While the male police officer is calming the wife in the situation , the husband grabs a bat and whacks the living shit out of him (sending him to the hospital for weeks). The female police officer, take a wild guess - runs out of the house hops in the cop car and calls for backup on her way back to the station. AND GUESS WHAT? - SHE WASN'T EVEN FIRED.

Just a more practical real life story, to counteract your argument that women are inherantly as capable of being cops because your wife can handle 4 200+ pound people in a dojo.

Willravel

My point was that the training police officers are given is bullshit. 14 weeks is not enough. Officers should have a ton of training in law, stunt driving, military combat, negotiating, etc. I am saying that if the training my wife and I went through could be given to police officers, stuff like the Atlanta courthouse masacre could probably be avoided.

I'm sorry about that police officer that got beaten, and the woman was wrong for running. What if that woman was given the balls that grow with real combat training? Maybe the male ploce officer would have had some ass-kicking backup.