Yakk

It's ok. We won, so we aren't all that pissed off about it. And your new white house looks so pretty. =)
No problem. Here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/

Agreed. That is one of the reasons why Canada has chosen not to build nuclear weapons, because the USA doesn't seem to be likely to invade in the short term.

No nation, other than the USA, is going to invade Canada.

No nation, other than Mexico, is going to invade the USA.

The American Military exists in it's current form and size to project power and policy overseas. It isn't a ministry of defence.

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Antikarma

If anyone wants to check CBC, Supposedly we boosted funding by 13B over 5 years. Which, in the grand scheme of things is most likely inconsequential, but hey, I got it to the thread first!!

/Two points Antikarma!
//Take that Yakk!
///WTF is an office of Green Procurement??

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"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Seaver

The American military outlook changed with WWII. We thought as Canadians do currently, that we should stay out of foreign affiars and be more concerned with our own. Our current outlooks is to diffuse potential enemies before they become more powerful than ourselves.

Janey

the best offence is a defence.... I've heard of that before. I don't think that Canadians currently think that the rest of the world is of no consequence to us. Nay nay i say! quite the opposite!

Charlatan

Canada is *very* concerned with what happens in the rest of the world. We just show our concern through forms of diplomacy and peacekeeping... Canada is well placed to mediate conflicts as we have never been nor do we aspire to be a colonial power (many conflicts today stem from old colonial issues).

Many probably don't know but it was a Canadian, Lester B. Pearson that was behind the idea of using military as peacekeepers. He was a former PM and later a big Mucky Muck at the UN...

His famous quote was, "Peace Through Understanding".

He won the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Seaver

You got it backwards. And once again yall took what I was trying to say and ran in the wrong direction. I edited it to better suite my intended direction.

Mojo_PeiPei

Oddly enough Canada's sad state of military affairs is even effecting their ablility to mediate and peace keep. But on the health care note whatever works for you guys, as a country with one tenth of our population and accordingly virtually none of our socio-economic issues (or at least anywhere near our extent), you are afforded the chance to have universal care. Plus you guys are quasi-socialists.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Charlatan

You say that like it's a bad thing...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Janey

oops you're right i did get it backwards (hazards of typing quickly while at work (lol)) But it still stands, and i didn't take your statement incorrectly... I'm not trying to annoy you, it's just that lately (some of) the americans in this forum have been taking a strip off of us because we wont roll over...

Janey

- agree. but this is the result of gov't cutbacks, and the need to pay off the national credit card. I don't think that you could get a person on the street to disagree with you. And you shouldn't denigrate our military personnel because of it.

- agreed. And so? You should as well with the economies of scale playing in your favour. All that is different is the management issues that come with size differences.

-now i am really curious. You say that like it is a bad thing. Please explain why. Now I vote PC or Liberal depending on issues, so I am not a hardcore socialist, nor even quasi... but I have to admit that I am constantly perplexed at your (not just you personally...) stance on the question of socialism. What gives???

Janey

lol i just posted the same comment... great minds...

Charlatan

Individualism is at the heart of what makes America, well America. Socialism or social policy is antithetical to this...

Canada has always been more or less socialist in our approach to things... I think it has to do with two factors...

1) we are a nation that has chosen compromise both with Britain and between the three nations that made up the founding of Canada (French, English, Aboriginal)
2) the weather... people don't survive Canadian winters without the help and support of the community as a whole. In large parts of the US you can live off the land all year long (in the US I was witness to rural poverty, something you just don't see in Canada). This is probably why the Scandinavians have similar policies...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

NCB

You know, I used to think the same thing until this morning.

I was listening to NPR and they were talking about this monstrasity of a bill, the prescription drug plan that takes effect this year. The report said that by next year, the federal govt will pick up the bill of 41% of all drug purchases in the entire country. And by 2010, it will engulf 50%.

It looks like the US is not too far behind on the socialist race

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Janey

what does the gov't currently cover? Is 41% a big change/increase? Why the change is there a pressing need, grass roots kind of pressure on the politicians? what is the back story?

NCB

In '03, the Congress passed a bill to cover prescrip drugs for all seniors. Not just seniors in need, all seniors. Most people supported assisting the needy on script drugs, but there was no drive to cover all seniors regardless of need. However, Congress and the Bush Admin decided tp play poilitics with the issue and this is what we got.

t used to be that most prescrip drugs were not covered under medicare, but this bill changes that. Now, we'll be paying for Viagra for old men, regardless of income

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tecoyah

The back story is unfortunately....highly political and has little to do with the welfare of Americans. The administration here decided not to use its influence as the largest buyer of Medications, and instead bow down to the drug Lobby of this country. Our Government is paying top dollar for drugs in a somewhat hidden subsidation program for medical R&D.

Thus costs have gone through the roof, and the population cannot afford the drugs without help from the very people who could have lowered the cost in the first place.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Janey

ouch. I know that here, prescription drugs are not covered either. I think old folks get coverage (actually they do, my dad gets his diabetes meds covered) But my husband has to take lipitor, which costs $245/bottle of 100 pills at 20 mg. We have to pay for it ourselves because we are independant contractors, with no corporate drug plan. so $245/hundred days is quite pricy to be paying. It's like financing a car lease.

james t kirk

Don't take it personally dude.

But you live south of the boarder.

No-one here thinks the US is going to invade Canada any time soon, however, if you asked Canadians, "Do you think it "conceivable" that the US might ever invade Canda", you would probably find that most people think that the possibility exists.

It's not that the US would have to spend MORE money on its health care to have a Universal system. As Charlatan already pointed out, the USA already spends more than Canada on what little health care you do have. It's a question of whether or not you have the balls to eliminate profit from the equation. Do Americans have enough guts to say to the insurance companies, HMO's, hospitals, medical lobby etc. - "Hey, you guys are ripping us off at the expense of our health and we aren't going to take it anymore"

Your lack of Universal health care has NOTHING to do with the size of your military budget.

In terms of percentages of GDP, Greece actually spends more on its military than does the US, and the Greeks have universal health care too.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...elds/2034.html

NCB

With all this talk about % of GDP spent on healthcare is less than it is in the US and that it's wonderful and all, just why do people in nations that have universal health keep coming to the USA for the care that will save their lives?

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Mojo_PeiPei

I'm one of the people that wants to take a baseball bat with me to any insurance company and start cracking skulls. For instance my mom's health care costs have gone up 1000% in the last 10 years, doubtful that it matches the rate of inflation. Point two why I should crack skulls, car insurance. I don't have any accidents or tickets yet those fucks still charge +150 a month on me, very angering. So you are right James, the average American probably feels the same as me, if not more passionate seeing as to I am still a lazy college student. Only problems is those assfucks we elect on either side of the political spectrum don't really help us any.

But point in case, what do you guys pay in taxes north of the border? Same should be asked for Greece.

Also nothing wrong with being Quasi-socialists. Just note that us Americans are all inherently selfish and most of us like to keep what we earn and we already feel that hte 35% +/- we already pay in taxes is to much, I can only imagine if we got up to the rates in Europe 50/60/70%.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Yakk

Economies of scale? You are a really large, industrial nation.

The fact that if you have 1 million dollars to blow, I guarantee you can get better care in the US than here? There are costs.

Government spending as a percentage of GDP in Canada, plus private health care spending as a percentage of GDP, is roughly the same as the same sum in the USA. (I worked it out, this was for some year between 2000 and 2004, I forget which one)

The number in both cases was about 43% of each of our GDPs.

The Federal Government in Canada is currently in a 'debt reduction' mode, while the Federal Government in the USA is currently in a deficit-spending mode.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Thank god for our conservatives in office, they really know how to shave off that inflated liberal spending!

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Janey

i can give you a break down on the margins:

personal income inOntario:

as of 2004

0 - 8,044 exemption no tax (the new budget from yesterday has moved this to 10,000)

up to 35,000 - provincial tax: 22.05%, Federal Tax: 16%
35,000 to 70,000: provincial tax: 31.15%, Federal tax: 22%
70,000 - 113,804: provincial tax: 37.16%, Federal tax: 26%
over 113,804: provincial tax: 40.16%, Federal tax: 29%

so as you can see, they get prgressively higher on the margins only.

I pay more in taxes than the avg income in Canada. this is an incentive to max outmy RRSPs and put my money into tax shelters for my retirement.

NCB

FTFY


Man, y'all are really getting soaked!!

So, in theory a person making 114,00 per year actually nets 34,770 (roughly)
while another person who earns 94,000 per year nets 34,780. Heck, a person making 69,000 nets 32,085!!

Does anyone else see anything wrong with that?

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Yakk

I believe he mislabelled.

What he calls "provincial tax" is "federal+provincial tax". Taxes on dividends and capital gains are much lower. Capital gains on your principle residence are tax free.

edit: addition
Someone earning 114,000 CN$ in normal income would take home 81228.72. (I don't know if UI/CPP/HC is included in the above numbers).

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flstf

We probably pay a lot more in taxes when you consider all the taxes we pay indirectly on all goods and services. I would venture to guess it is more like 70 to 80% for those who spend almost as much as they make each year. A $2 loaf of bread probably has $1.50 or so included in the price for taxes added to the cost from the farmer to the store. Everybody in the distribution channel is taxed and adds the amount to what they charge, and so on, until we pay them all in the final price at the store. And then we are charged sales tax on top of that.

jorgelito

The Canadian model doesn't seem to differ too much from ours. I think the main variable could be the deficit spending vs. debt reduction modes.

What about military? Either as percentage of GDP or per capita?

Yakk, if it's not too much teouble, can you analyze it (you seem to be good with stats, I've noticed).

Yakk

The US spends way more on defence than Canada does. Like way more, on a per-capita and on a percentage-of-GDP and in raw-numbers more.

CIA world factbook says: Canada, 1.1% of GDP.
USA: 3.3% of GDP

The USA spends 38 times more on their military than Canada does.

The total manpower/tonnage/planes of the American and Canadian military isn't something I found in a naive google search.

Canadian government deficit/surplus isn't as rosey as the federal budget might indicate. You'd really want to compare all public debt (from municipal through provicial/state to federal), and include implicit future obligations (like social security/CPP) to get a good measure of it.

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metalgeek

Umm yeah, he mislabeled it, it's provincial + federal. And anyways, it's a progressive tax scheme, so your first 8k is tax free, then the next 13k (ro hwoever much) is at 18%, then the next 10k is at 22% and so on... plus then there are things you cna do to reduce them.
We also have a 7% GST which is put onto most purchases (but not all) and almost all of the provinces have a PST (a sales tax) except Alberta.
Taxes are higher here, but our social net are better, so take your pick I guess.

james t kirk

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001201.html

The above is a link to a simple site that compares US taxes to other industrialized countries. It keeps it simple, but the US doesn't pay a lot of taxes, that's for sure.

flstf

I don't doubt that the U.S. tax rate is lower than many other industrial countries. But the link you provided is only for federal income taxes. I wonder how much lower our over all taxes are when considering state sales taxes, state income taxes, local sales taxes, real estate taxes, cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, 7.5% employer SS taxes, medicare taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes, capital gains taxes, auto/boat/RV/ licenses, etc.... I'm sure I missed a few.

With all these included plus the indirect taxes we pay on all goods and services I imagine the taxes we pay is more like 70% to 80% of income for a typical wage earner. I have not had any luck finding out the exact numbers on this.

NCB

Just curious, but you make it sound like it's a bad thing. Is that what you're implying?

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james t kirk

No, I am saying I wish Americans would quit bitching and complaining all the time about what little tax they pay.