Charlatan

Substitute the word gay for jew and you see how much most of us value a comment like that...

I've said it before, hyperbole helps no one...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

NCB

It's not a problem, filther. Just saying that there is one doesn't make it so. My suggestion would be is to try to persuade the people on the merits of homosexual unions instead of shoveling down the American people throats via the courts and the a mayor of a city known for it's homosexuality.

Heck, y'all wanna make the comparison between the black civil rights movt and the gay "marriage" thingy, but no one want to do the legwork that the blacks did in the 50's and 60's. Make a compelling case and people will listen. Attacking people and claiming that they're intolerant boobs isn't gonna help your cause. And the fact is, that's all we're hearing from the pro homosexual marriage brigade.

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NCB

Intresting, considering many of the lefties here have no problem attacking BA Christians. Click the thread about the Christian Right can be dangerous to America, and then we can substitude Jew for Christian and find out how close to Hitler some on the left really are

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filtherton

Pretending that it isn't a problem doesn't make said problem go away. How exactly isn't this a problem? There aren't marches? There isn't organization? Where have you been? From where i sit i can see plenty of examples of gay rights "legwork". If it weren't for the gay rights legwork that you can't see, we wouldn't be discussing the problem that you pretend doesn't exist.

Charlatan

Just so we are clear I was making an anti-semetic reference and NOT a Nazi reference in my post above...

So in your mind, people who struggle for equal rights are BAD. I just want to be clear on this... Most people see gay rights as no different from anything else in the civil rights movement. It is just the latest skirmish in a long history of people stuggling to attain equal rights.

I see the resistance to gay rights coming from the same place that had blacks drinking from seperate water fountains and riding at the back of the bus... You can be equal as long as you don't want to be equal in my back yard...

In the end, these complaints will fade away because bigotry always wilts over time... It wilts because when it really comes down to it we are all just folks... we are the same. And that is true today as will be tomorrow...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ace_O_Spades

I don't really understand how to respond to this statement. But I can safely do so by making anecdotal reference to the following case:

1998, Matthew Shepard was walking down a road when he was kidnapped, beaten, tied to a fencepost, and left to die. Shepard was found and hospitalized in a comatose state and died shortly thereafter.

All because he was gay.

This sort of thing isn't an isolated occurance.

Just because you have blinders on doesn't mean things aren't happening on either side of the road.

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Feh.

NCB

Yeah, everyone remembers that. The MSM won't allow us to forget.

That's one person. Where is this gay bashing epidemic? How about giving the American people credit for accepting homosexuals as part of our community? Just because people do not want them to redefine marriage, does not make us animals roaming the streets looking to kill homosexuals

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tecoyah

Okay........Before this gets any worse....I ask that we stop and take a breath. Think BEFORE your next post. Everyone.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

NCB

Same thing.

No, everyone believes in equal rights. Gays are allowed to marry. The 6% of the pop that they represent is just not permitted to redefine marriage on their terms.

What do I say to this? You're doing what you accuse others of doing: showing intolerance and bigotry. We can disagree without being bigots and liberal weenies

Time will tell. This debate is going to be a contentious one. Let's just hope that EVERYONE keeps an open mind to this.

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martinguerre

It's particularly chilling to hear the queer movement likened to a terrorist uprising. I see a lot of old canards being played out...all with the potential to be very damaging.

Why are we debating the existance or non existance of a "gay intifada?"

To NCB, why is that an okay comparison to make?

To Filtherton, et al...Why cede the terms of the debate, and even engage such a provocation?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Mojo_PeiPei

I heard somewhere that new shit has come to light regarding Matthew Shepard, that his death might have more to do with drugs then his being gay. I could be wrong, or I could be right, can't remember the source, would be funny if it turned out to be that Fred Phelps dude (that's that guy right?).

Anybody ever see that episode of Michael Moore's show when he took the sodomy bus to Phelp's church?

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

boatin

And what about hetero couples that can't have children? Somehow the definition of marriage covers them.

Are you seriously proposing that having children is part of the criteria of marriage?

Would appreciate clarification, just so I understand.

thx

martinguerre

Mojo_PeiPei- That's what the perps are claiming. But niether their plea baragin, nor evidence at trial supports that claim.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

filtherton

I was trying to feed the troll poison.

Charlatan

Sorry I don't follow you... please explain how I am being intolerant and bigoted... ( I will ignore the "liberal weenie" troll bait for now... but I have a big bag of Fuck you just waiting to be unleashed )

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ace_O_Spades

Billy Jack Gaither, a gay textile worker in Alabama. Murdered for being gay.

Philip Walsted, was bludgeoned to death in a pitch-dark side street off Tucson's Fourth Avenue.

The severed head of Henry Edward Northington, 39, was left on a walkway leading to a popular meeting place for gays.

In 1997, more than 1,000 anti-gay hate crimes were reported to the FBI; 2,930 attacks on lesbians and gay men were documented by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs

Attacks Upon Gays and Lesbians: 1999

Documented Incidents: 2,017
Victims: 2,375
Offenders: 3223
Assault Crimes: 705
Robbery/Burglary/Theft: 92
Vandalism: 138
Discrimination: 158
Required Hospital Treatment: 243
Minor Injury: 505
Murders: 29...+12% from 1998

Source:
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/orgs/avproject/1999%20bias%20report%20(final).pdf

This is not an isolated incident. And not just in the USA, in Canada too. But in order for there to be a solution to the problem, people need to realize that there IS a problem.

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Feh.

chickentribs

NCB, you may want read a bit about The Stonewall Riots before discounting the history and importance of the gay communities to the civil rights movement in America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
"Legwork" in both monetary contributions and activism are plenty accounted for.

The "shucks, give 'em a marriage thingy" attitude illustrates exactly the problem you deny exists. You feel entitled to rights and benefits that you would deny another person, simply because you were born straight. Why? Could you really stand in front of my friends who are smart, kind, hard-working, raising two great kids (one who has no health insurance because he has two daddies), have been together for 10 years, and tell them thier family doesn't deserve the respect or level of consideration you deserve? They don't ask for respect from your Priest or your God or even you, but they deserve it from the damn government.

These situations are everywhere - it's not all Village People and drag queens, I promise you. Feel free to hold on to an ideal of marriage that you are defending for Vegas brides and reality shows if you must, but asking your government to treat another US citizen different than they treat you is just indefensible.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

roachboy

i have to say that i find the level of homophobia from conservatives in this thread to be almost dizzyingly offensive. i was sure at various points that it would get shut down.

paul martin's proposal, which opened the thread, is interesting both in itself and as an index of the degree to which the american fundamentalist protestant right has managed to frame the question of whether gay folk should be afforded the (secular, legal) protections of marriage in a manner that is simply the mirror image of the bigotry that you see conservatives individuals here expressing.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

irateplatypus

sorry ace... but there is no way to draw any meaningful conclusions from those stats.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Ace_O_Spades

The only conclusion I was aiming at was that it's not an isolated problem.

Hate crime murders happen.

What problem exactly do you have with my statistics? They're the only reliable ones I could find.

__________________
Feh.

roachboy

and what would the point be of even trying to question the fact that people have been subject to various types of violence on the basis of sexual preference?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

irateplatypus

i'm sure they're reliable stats in themselves... but there is no context with which to frame the data.

how did they determine that the crimes were anti-gay instead of just crimes that happened to have gay victims?

how many people do they identify as gay/lesbian in the survey? surely that number can't remain constant from year-to-year... has the number of attacks against g/l peoples increased faster than the total number of gay/lesbians?

how do the anti-gay/lesbian violence rates compare against the average american? how do they compare against heterosexual persons of similar socioeconomic background? are the identified gay/lesbian populations subject to lifestyle factors that may be independent of their sexual preferences yet have statistical ties to crime victimization?

those are the type of questions i think need to be addressed before looking at the numbers you presented. it's very hard to look at those bare statistics in your post and conclude that there is an epidemic without more information. my apologies if those are discussed in the link you provided in your post... i'm on a very slow connection and am reluctant to try to d/l a pdf document.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

chickentribs

Police and gay rights organizations (HRC, Stonewall, etc...) track hate crimes against gays the same as race, religious, gender hate crimes. The attackers shout homophobic slurs and target gatherings specific to gays to single out victims. These additional circumstances must be proven in court because they carry additional charges and penalties.

Unfortunately, many times the hate crime specific data gets tossed out due to a plea bargain or insufficient evidence (the victim was alone and so no other witnesses could verify the "suck on this, faggot" taunts while he was being kicked in the face), so if anything the numbers only reflect some fraction of actual occurences.

Sadly, the anti-gay policies pursued by our government only help to justify the ideas among these idiots that they are justified in there hate and terrorizing of gays.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

cellophanedeity

I can't remember the name of the philosopher or the thought experiment, but it goes like this:

You have no idea who you are. You could be of any race, religion, social standing, talent group, or sexual orientation. You are in charge of doling out rights and liberties to certain groups of people. After you choose the placement of rights and liberties, you will be thrown into the system and you could land anywhere. For instance, you could be a white heterosexual Christian upperclass male, or you could be a black queer lowerclass female Jew.

Based upon this, would it not make sense to give equal rights to everyone? If you just so happened to turn out gay (lets accept that gayness is something that exists and happens to people whether they want it or not, just for the sake of the thought experiment!) would you not want to be able to have equal rights as everyone else? Would you not want to get married?

===

Don't let the tyrrany of the majority rule.

muttonglutton

That's an amazing experiment, and so true. I continually want to hit people that live in the bible belt upside the head with the very book the excersize belief in.

As for a personal stance, either gay marriage should be perfectly allowed, or marriage should me nothing more than a function of the church, with no legal component whatsoever. Reduce everything to common-law marriage and allow those that truly believe in the sanctity of marriage to undertake it at their own leisure.

But since the latter of those options will never happen, we have to hold out for the former. Even if it takes far, far longer than it should.

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Cellar Door.

host

NCB, since I authored the thread that I think that you are bashing here (and slurring me -"leftie"- ), I take exception to you doing this, here, rather than discussing your objections and offering your point of view there, <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=83400">Do Religious Right's Beliefs Pose Threat to U.S.?</a>
instead of here...................

Considering that my thread made enough of an impression on you for you to
make the slurs and the claims about it's content, and I presume,,,,,about me,
it is curious that the following was all you posted on that thread. There were
many well researched and well referenced posts on that thread, 166 posts
in total.

Bashing that thread and it's author and supporters here, instead of making a
coherent and persuasive argument on the thread itself, leads me to suspect that your remarks come from neither your heart, nor your gut.

It is much easier to respect and understand a passionate objection made in
a "face to face" confrontation than in a tactical, backdoor post to another thread...............

host

irateplatypus, why don't you address your own questions, search out answers yourself, and decide if there is an epidemic or manipulated statistics. You seem much more concerned about being lured into a false sense of empathy for people who only want to receive the same respect and the same legal rights in the area of marriage, that you already enjoy. Why not err on the side of empathy for people who you must, at one time or another in your life,
have observed being harrassed or embarassed because of their sexual orientation. Unless you've lived in a bubble, I know that you've seen that happen, we all have.

MSD

Ace_O_Spades

We're doing our best to keep it civil.

It is a two way street with everyone else though.

__________________
Feh.

NCB

Host, I didn't realize that calling someone a "lefty" was bashing or considered a slur. If that's the case, would being labeled a member of the religious right be considered a slur or bashing as well, or is the street one way in nature?

I'm confident that other than Host, I have not bashed or slurred anyone on this board. If there's one thing I've been to everyone and their views, it's respectful. So Host, please do not mistake disagreement for mean spiritedness.




Now, back on topic.

I thought about this the other day, but what exactly is the magical about the number "2"? Why have the homosexual marriage proponents settled on only two consenting adults should "marry"? Is that not intolerant towards the beliefs of Mormons and Muslims? Why should we limit the debate on redefining marriage to what the homosexual lobby wants?

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guy44

Why shouldn't we?

If you are insinuating that altering marriage to include same-sex couples but not polygamy or polygany is arbitrary, then I would ask why limiting it to opposite-sex couples is not arbitrary?

The fact is that the argument over whether marriage should be between more than two people is a different debate entirely. Comparing the alteration of marriage to include same-sex couples with any old alteration of marriage you can come up with is not an effective or logical argument against gay marriage.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Charlatan

Seperate issue and a red herring.

Polyamourous relationships will be examined when there is the same sort of ground swell of support for them that there is for same sex marriages.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ace_O_Spades

Like when polygamy is LEGAL

Last time I checked, being Gay wasn't illegal anymore... So revision of laws surrounding it need to be considered.

__________________
Feh.

NCB

What is this ground swell of support you're talking about? Are you talking about Canada or the US?

__________________

Ace_O_Spades

Since this is a thread about Paul Martin and Canada's attempt to change the definition of marriage... I think the answer is fairly obvious

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Feh.

Charlatan

I was refering to Canada but there is strong support for this in the increasingly puritanical US as well.

Ultimatley, what this comes down to in Canada is that is an issue that falls under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

By the way NCB: If you don't like same sex marriage... don't marry someone of the same sex...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

NCB

Sorta related. It's not worthy of it's own thread, but it's worth the read. Funny shit!


Interview With A Preacher Who
Thinks Superman Is A Homosexual

According to a Topeka, Kansas preacher, that is precisely what he is suggesting and wants to ban everything from Superman comic books to re-runs of that old B&W television series. I did not believe it until I contacted this nutcase myself. The preacher's name is Clay. Here is the beginning part of my conversation
with him:

Lewis: Hello, my name is Lewis from Bizarre News. I'm following up on a tip I received from a reader about your story. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?

Clay: It's not about the homosexual Superman thing again, is it?

Lewis: Well, yes. I would have called sooner but I was in Salt Lake City at the Olympics.

Clay: Okay, but I have given about 25 interviews over the last three weeks and I never heard of Bizarre News.

Lewis: We're small, but up and coming. What in the world made you think that Superman was gay? He started out as a cartoon!

Clay: What kind of MAN runs around in tights or leotards? I tell you there is a homosexual conspiracy trying to turn all of our young boys into homosexuals. It started with these cartoons or comic books and you see it openly on television.

Lewis: You mean that this is like the Communist Conspiracy of the Cold War?

Clay: Hell yes--but its worse. The President is all worried about this Al Qaida thing when he should be worrying that Hollywood and all of the creative community is trying to turn our boys into queers.

Lewis: Isn't that kind of harsh? Using the word "queer"
is derogatory.

Clay: Look, I am trying to save our youth and you speak to me about politically correct speech? It is not just Superman... look at Batman. What adult male has a teenage boy as his side kick? There is a pervasive problem going on and we better do something about it quickly, or this abomination will take over our country even more than it has.

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guy44

NCB, that above conversation really reminds me of Michael Chabon's great book, The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay. In it, the two title characters are called before the House Un-American Activities committee (I think) and are forced to answer questions about why their comic book characters all have male sidekicks, wear tights, things like that. Crazy stuff.

Also - a California court invalidated that state's ban on same-sex marriage today.

Which, by the way - awesome. Just awesome.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

NCB

I gotta check that out!!!

Not awesome. Once again, the judicial system oversteps it's bounds. It shouldn't matter what side of the issue your on or what side of the politcal spectrum you reside, when judges, most of them unelected and unaccountable, begin rewriting or making up law, that's not a good thing. If the people of CA want to redefine marriage, then they should do it via the legislature and the court of public opinion.

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Manx

Other than a displeasure at the result (or at least the simple parroting of someone else who has displeasure at the result), I'm not clear where that concept comes from.

Judges constantly adjust or redefine laws. The people's majority might want something to be a law, but if that something is in opposition to the Constitution, the people's majority can't have it. What you are suggesting is mob rule.