02-14-2005, 12:20 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Insane
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Popular Mechanis & the fire in Madrid
Popular Mechanics will have a piece in the March issuse which takes a stab at conspiracy theorist. I have yet to read it but the burning building issue is supposedly touched and fortified as truth.
Now the building in Madrid burned to up to 20 hours...and it remains erect. What says the board? Had one of the WTC towers fell over onto the street and buildings I would have eaten the cake...but the manner which they fell makes it hard to understand. What say you? Different building...different circumstances? |
02-14-2005, 12:52 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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The WTC was doused in jet fuel... the Madrid building was not.
Different building, different circumstances.
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02-14-2005, 12:55 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Insane
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02-14-2005, 01:01 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Jet fuel, as far as I know, burns at a much higher temperature than say, the usual contents of an office building (carpets, furniture, drywall, paper, etc.)
I can't speak to the duration but the plane that went into the WTC were practically full of fuel. The stories I've read, suggest it was the heat from the fuel (and of course the weight of the building above) that caused the steel in the WTC's girders to eventually buckle. I also understand that the WTC were designed to withstand plane collisions, but all things combined caused a collapse.
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02-14-2005, 01:33 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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There is also the idea that the impact of the planes into the World Trade Center knocked off much of the fireproofing that otherwise would have protected the steel.
Definately different circumstances.
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02-14-2005, 01:37 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
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02-14-2005, 01:44 PM | #7 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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What is the melting point of steel (specifically the steel alloy used in common steel reinforcement for buildings)? What is the burining temperature of jet fuel?
Answer these questions, and you'll either get an conclusion, or you'll get more questions. |
02-14-2005, 01:49 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Jet fuel burns MUCH hotter than a building fire would. The building fire would be wood, carpets, lamps.. many things that, while burn, do so very inefficiently. So, the intense heat warped and eventually made the steel support beams fail.
As far as falling sideways, the building was made to take a plane hit. It happened in the '40s to the Empire State Building, so knowledge of it could happen was known, and planned for, in advance. What they didnt plan for was a plane loaded with enough fuel to fly over the ocean to crash into it. As stated the fireproofing, which is intended to insulate the steel from extreme heat, was blown away during the impact. The building was built in a grid of squares of support beams. Newer buildings are built the same way but with X's to give added structural support with less weight (The Malasian towers for example). With the box pattern of the WTC, top-down collapse is what would happen if one or two layers of boxes were taken out. If it was supported with the X pattern it would twist, hopefully keeping just enough integrity to save it from complete collapse (though falling sideways is much more of a threat because of the twist). Quote:
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02-14-2005, 01:55 PM | #9 (permalink) | ||
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02-14-2005, 02:01 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
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I get the conclusion that steel looses much of it stability at lower temperatures. It doesn't need to melt to collapse. What are your conclusions?
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02-14-2005, 03:00 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Crazy
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There is the thread in the Paranoia board where collapsing buildings are discussed. I saw an interview with a Spanish architect this morning and she said the building (in Madrid) might collapse due to structural insabilities that occured. The concrete frames started breaking.
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02-14-2005, 03:53 PM | #13 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The real question is: Why did the top story cave straight down, followed by the next to the top, followed by the third from the top, leading to the building collapsing at free fall speeds from metal beginning to bend just in the area with the jet fuel? The jet fuel could have warped the structure in the area it was burning, and I'm sure that it did. But why did the top floor collapse down first without any collpase underneith it? It just seems odd to me. In order for it all to fall straight down into itself, the whole steel frame would have to be compromised almost at once. What would have happened if the steel warped causeing the building to collapse: The planes hit, they burn very hot for hours and hours, possibly days. Eventually, the middle (middle meaning impact area) of the buildings becomes weak and a strong enough wind or the weight of the top of the buildings causes the middle to give. If it is wind, the top part of the building is blown away from the wind, crushing the back part of the building as it falls. If the weight of the top causes the middle to give, you'll see the top half of the building crunch down on the middle, then you see the building crumble as it all goes to the ground. Neither of those happened. Also, the American Free Press reported pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. That just doesn't fit with the jet fuel theory. It is important to note that the theory about the melting frame collapse was just a theory put fourth by FEMA after the initial invesigation of the collapse. This theory has never been proven. One theory is that there were thermite charges installed for some time before this happened in case the building was going to topple on it's side, crushing many buildings and possibly killing tens of thousands. The WTC was bombed before, so this was clearly something that could have beeen considered. The building was hit and it could have possibly collapsed, so they decided to "pull" the buildings (i.e. demolish them straight down, like a controled demolition). This would explain the manner of the falls, as well as the m,olten steel. Thermite burns at approximately 5,400 degrees (F), more than enough to liquify the structure. I've seen a video of thermite instantly liquifying a jeep engine. Just one theory, I guess. It's up to you to figure out what you want to believe. |
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02-15-2005, 05:21 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Insane
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I too feel as though the south tower (2nd impact) the way it was struck on the South East side would have fallen over itself...not straight down. There was no fire on the SW, NW corners of the structure. Ohhh well. |
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02-15-2005, 07:00 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Insane
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Remember that the Trade towers were built differently to most buildings, they were essentially two boxes connected by the floors.
----------- | | | | ___ ___ | | | | ___ ____ | | | | As the floors collapsed the actual forces on the steel supports increased (doubling the effective length of the support between crossbraces)... the more floors lost => greater chance of falling. The Empire State building and the Madrid one are build more traditionally... Steel boxes stacked on each other rather than two boxes with a suspended floor... Basically the towers were designed well... the actual plane impact was expected however the impact blew off a lot of the fire proofing and the fuel just burned down the place, it was a more susceptible building than traditional cosntruction though had benefits in other areas. |
02-15-2005, 08:08 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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02-15-2005, 10:16 AM | #18 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Relative to the 'temperature' argument, the imagery of the WTC does NOT reveal the aluminum siding of the WTC towers deforming. Thus, given the constant exposure - over time - to any escaping heat, it is difficult to imagine the fires being so hot as to cause either catastrophic or abrupt damage to the WTC vertical support structure. None of the images of the outer steel structure show the otherwise expected red-hot glow. All images show the outer shell mechanically destroyed, versus collapsing from thermal cause. Given the mechanics of the heat escape, the outer columns were the most vulnerable to heat damage. No matter what fire dynamics were going on within the building, the heat escape was almost exclusively - and constantly - around the outer columns. Hence, given both time and temperature, the outer columns should have been the structural 'weak-link.
Also, it should be mentioned that the FEMA report, the only real investigation with access to the collapsed remains, did not think the fuel was sufficient to initiate the structurel collapse. From Chapter 2 of the FEMA report: "The large quantity of jet fuel carried by each aircraft ignited upon impact into each building. A significant portion of this fuel was consumed immediately in the ensuing fireballs. The remaining fuel is believed either to have flowed down through the buildings or to have burned off within a few minutes of the aircraft impact.The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses. However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings." This suggests that the desks and paper and carpet and normal office furnature, ignited by the jet fuel fire, were able to melt the steel. That is basically impossible. I challenge you to melt a piece of aluminum (the melting point, and warping point, of which is substantially lower than steel) with a wood or plastic burning fire. Take some normal paper, some wood, some plastic and some propane fuel. Douce the paper, wood, and plastic with the propane and light it in a safe burning area. Let it catch fire, and put a role of aluminum foil in it. Come back in a few hours. Do you think the aluminum would have melted? I can tell you the answer. The role in the center of the aluminum has melted, and there are singe marks on the outside, but the aluminum has not even begun to melt. It's physics. These facts are not what surprise me. We've seen people do some pretty aweful stuff before. What really gets me is that no one asked these questions! |
02-15-2005, 12:45 PM | #19 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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I guess no one here read my post on the "Rice....Memo"
thread. NIST is still conducting the most comprehensive forensic investigation of the WTC towers. At their meeting in Oct. 2004, the NIST investigators results so far do not support the jet fuel fire or heat from it, being the cause of the collapse of either tower. Quote:
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02-15-2005, 09:43 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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The same does not apply to building 7, which fell too perfectly to have been caused solely by damage casued by falling debris. This is less relevant to this discussion, however, as the building was unoccupied when it fell. |
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02-15-2005, 10:48 PM | #21 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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posted on their website, and posted above by me........... Quote:
are in CT.....I lived there for 37 years......last location was a south central shore town....I miss LI Sound. |
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fire, madrid, mechanis, popular |
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