matthew330

Congratulations, that's twice you've ignored a petty minded insulting tone of a post.

Bush lied, Bush illegally invaded iraq killing thousands of innocent people, blah blah blah blah blah. Weren't you just arguing how Bush shouldn't be impeached. Why do i think it's stupid? I thought for sure you'd be the last person i'd have to explain that too.

In the interest redundancy, i'm giving you my short answer.

Actually, i'm sorry - you're response to the first insulting post was "EXACTLY".

Rdr4evr

It wouldn't be "blah blah" had it been your loved ones that were killed because some cowboy in fatigues thinks he has a God given right to murder whomever he please because of the position he was put in. I know it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the feeble and insignificant Iraqis considering you probably have such a great life in the the states without fret that a bomb might land on your home at any given moment, but just try putting yourself in their shoes if only once, it might (and that's a gigantic might in your case) just make you think twice before supporting it.

Willravel

Matthew330, don't brake the rules of TFP. They were nice not to correct you. I'm not so nice to people who choose to be dissrespectful. Besides, you didn't adress what was said. You quoted the person and simply said "that's stupid".

RangerDick

Have you tried putting yourself in the place of the "feeble, insignificant" Iraqis who were tortured, raped, and thrown into mass graves by their tyrant ruler? It might just make you think twice before completely dismissing the justifications for this war. (and that's a gigantic might in your case).

Rdr4evr

Isn't it funny how we torture and murder people to show that torturing and murdering people is wrong?

The justifications were that of WMD's and 9/11, which were both proven to be incorrect. The public was taken advantage of by the administration because it was in a time where they were in fear of their lives built by the propaganda that the administration spewed to justify the war after the trade center attacks, therefore, they went right along and supported it.

Don't you find it interesting that we attack Afghanistan to hunt down the supposed mastermind of 9/11 with only a couple thousand troops and immediately afterwards, once the false propaganda has been spewed, we deploy 50 times that in Iraq? Doesn't it make you question why we went after someone who had nothing to do with 9/11 and wasn't a threat to the US in any way shape or form while we abandon and set free Osama?

If you truly believe that the intention of the war was to liberate the Iraqis because Bush felt genuinely heart broken by the oppression that Saddam brought upon them, you have been heavily misguided.

tecoyah

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

FoolThemAll

Nope, not quite.

Okay, that's something

That's gonna take several sittings.

I understand not considering it an adequate justification for other reasons, but surely Saddam could be considered the schoolyard bully?

I'm having a little trouble imagining a scenario under which #3 would turn out to be a lie. I could see it turning out to be an unsuccessful venture, but not a lie.

Liberation was a justification since the beginning, even if it wasn't used by the administration until later.

I think it's rather presumptuous of you to claim that Bush absolutely did not care about the liberation of the Iraqis. I also think it's entirely irrelevant how Bush felt about the liberation. What's relevant is whether he's working well enough to secure the liberation (and that's certainly up for debate).

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Mephisto2

I argued against his impeachment.
I didn't argue that he lied. He did lie.

How did the word "Exactly" insult you?

Mr Mephisto

PS - Are you going to answer the question and tell us why someone else's post was the most stupid thing you've ever heard?

PPS - Actually don't bother. I don't really want to know why you think that.

Mephisto2

Huh?

How can it be a justification for the war if it wasn't used until later?

Maybe I'm missing something.


Mr Mephisto

pan6467

I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

How can we say we are there for "liberation" when we have pictures of soldiers torturing, have stories of our troops murdering prisoners and acting with no honor or dignity at all?

What's worse is when we try these sadists, they recieve slaps on the wrists and seemingly the citizenry is not appalled by any of this for there are few outcries (such as the Sgt. that made 2 swim until they drowned, when tried he got 6 months and no loss of rank).

It is quite amazing how the administration truly does nothing.

YOU WANT ME TO SUPPORT THIS WAR, THEN PUT OUR WAR CRIMINALS ON TRIAL AND DON'T JUST GIVE THEM A SLAP ON THE WRIST!!!!! IF I SEE THAT THEN MAYBE I CAN BUY INTO THE WHOLE "LIBERATION" STORY.

DISCLAIMER: NOWHERE DO I ACCUSE ALL OF OUR TROOPS OF THIS BEHAVIOUR AND NOONE SHOULD EVER IMPLY THAT I DID. I AM SINGLING OUT THE FEW BAD EGGS THAT HAVE GIVEN THE REST OF OUR BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN A BAD NAME. I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS BUT WILL NEVER SUPPORT NOR FORGIVE THOSE WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER, FROM THE PRESIDENT DOWN.

It is also hypocrisy that we can send 100's maybe 1000's to prisons for life with no trial and no justification. Where's the "liberation and promotion of the American way of life" there?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

RangerDick

I posted this another thread already, but it seems to be relevant to this discussion as well. Attached is a link to the Joint Resolution for the Use of Military Force in Iraq. In it you will find several reasons for the justification for the use of military force. Liberation of the Iraq's is mentioned, it's right there in black and white.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20021002-2.html

Here are just a few selected passages:

Quote:
....... Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;......

.......Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;.......

........ Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Willravel

I'll lend you my imagination. Let's say that the elections go smoothly. The newly elected leader does well for a while, despite many threats from terrorist groups. Let's say that the person who is elected is exposed as being trained by the CIA (like Ossama, and a multitude of others). Aparently, he was allowing several large American and British oil companies to purchase oil at a much lower price than everyone else. It is also found out that he has been accepting large bribes since before he was elected. Crazy? That's up to you. Plausable? Maybe. Possible? Yes.

I'll give you another. Let's say that a new leader is elected in Iraq. The problem? He's christian and exit poles had him dead last. It turns out that the ballot boxes were stuffed by several FBI agents that have been living in Iraq for several years. Crazy? That's up to you. Plausable? Maybe. Possible? Yes.

despite the fact that these are highly unlikely, they are possible. Would you really be surprised if either of those happened? Honestly?

matthew330

rdr: "Stupid Citizens did this, stupid citizens did that, etc etc"

Mr. Mephisto: "EXACTLY"

i wasn't insulted, just obligated to respond. And willravel, they were correct in not correcting me, they were wrong in not correcting rdr. I didn't directly address what was said in that post, because it's been said a million times - goes in one ear and out the other.

roachboy

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

on the civilian casualty levels in iraq, based on media reports.
there is a link somewhere on the page to a short critique of projections that resulted in estimates on the order of 100K. and to those projections as well.

this obviously apart from the question of torture, its use and extent.
and we have not talked about the american use of napalm in fallujah, have we.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

FoolThemAll

The administration isn't the only group of people able to attempt a justification for the war. I knew of quite a few that supported the war right from the start primarily because they wanted the Iraqi people liberated. (As an aside, some of these few still didn't vote for Bush in either '00 or '04 due to the domestic situation.) It didn't seem to bother them too badly that the administration might be waging the war on false pretenses, or based on shaky intel, or secretly for oil.

Why? Because in their minds, there was sufficient justification for the war. Even if the administration wasn't using it in making its case to the public.

A good thing done for the wrong reason is still a good thing done. It's petty and a sign of warped priorities to stop a good deed because you aren't fond of the doer.

(This is not to say that it's undebateable that the Iraq war was a good deed.)

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Willravel

Your link is dead. "Promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime" does not mean liberate. All that means is that we want a democracy there. It has nothing to do with the possible good intentions.

matthew330

...and Pan, how dare you imply all of our troops are war criminals

pan6467

Really? Where are the Military Resolutions to attack other, more brutal, repressive nations?????

Such as Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Cuba, Columbia, Chile, Iran, Zimbabwe, and so on and so on and so on?

I mean if we are using "liberation" as such a big thing where are the rest of the countries that need liberated..... and are in far worse shape with far worse dictators?

I don't believe "liberation" is a reason for invasion into a sovereign country. If that were the case, I'm sure there are a few countries that could listen to the far left and decide our country needs "liberating".

NO COUNTRY HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW ANOTHER IS RUN.

We can embargo, sending only food, clothing and medicines to their people through non-biased organizations such as the Red Cross, but there is no reasoning to go to war to "liberate" a sovereign country, that is not threatening nor has the ability to threaten us.

Wanna use Hitler for an example? Ok.... noone went to war with him UNTIL HE INVADED Poland and Czechloslavakia.

Napolean??? Noone touched him until he started invading others.

Korea and Vietnam and the whole "Domino Theory" set this policing theory. And even then it is sad that we chose those 2 (neither of which asked us for help, and both were bad wars), while Czech BEGGED US for help when the USSR tanks rolled in and we turned deaf ears.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

FoolThemAll

I really don't see the second situation happening. It'd be far too see-through, and I wouldn't see a purpose to it for any side, let alone the U.S.

I'll accept that first scenario. But it wouldn't be proof that liberation was a lie. I *think* I see your thought process there, correct me if I am wrong:

If (War for Oil)
Then NOT (War for Freedom)

That's not true. People are capable of multiple motives.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

roachboy

so if i understand this "liberation" it seems in line with the american's "liberation" of
guatemala in 1953--no wait, that was overthrowing a government for united fruit
iran --ok no, that was to install the shah
chile 1972--no wait, that was to overthrow allenda and install a military dictatorship that "liberated" tens of thousands of chileans thereafter

the list is really quite long

somewhere in there is also

iraq, when the americans backed saddam hussein's ascension to power--no wait that was....as i see it, the americans already "liberated" iraq once, in their great and unique style.

please. the "liberation" argument is complete bullshit. the war in iraq was directed at the international community, at insufficiently nationalist institutions like the un that were appearing to gain power via globalization, etc etc etc--a long list of motives--none of them pertained to the iraqi people--of course making reference for them made for good boilerplate. and so it is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Good point, pan. You aren't brainwashed, that's for sure.

What we did is immoral. It was baseless and tactless. We've killed thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of Iraqi's trying to free them from a dictator who killed them? Bullshit. It makes no sense whatsoever. As pan pointed out, there are plenty of places that need a lot more help then Iraq did.

That's it. Iraq/al Qaeda link is dead. Iraq WMD link is dead. Liberation is a poor excuse at best. We have no buisness here. GWB owes a lot of people a very serious apology and he owes us a very quick exit strategy.

Willravel

Okay. They wouldn't be liberated if we controled their leader. If the US takes control of the Iraqi government for good, that means that Iraq was conqoured, not liberated.

hunnychile

Never been a Bush Supporter....just waiting for all the dust to settle and prove how deceived most Americans were this past election. All I can say is that I am thankful that Bush will not get re-elected again. This has been a sad and dreadful 5 years.

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

pan6467

Here's another for ya, Will.

What if elections go as planned and the winner is a "supposed friend of ours" but once in power decides it is safer for him to align with Syria, Iran, China and so forth and demands we leave or he will truly open the floodgates to a true WAR? Or what if he treats his people worse then Saddam?

What do we do then? Do we claim then that we need to liberate Iraq from him? After a supposed free election, that we watched?

Crazy, paranoid? perhaps, that's in the eye of the beholder.

Plausible? Yes.

Possible? History has shown that it happens time and time again.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Hanabal

Ok two words,

North Korea.

For those that need explanation. North korea opresses its citizens equal if not worse than iraq did. North Korea openly proclaims programs to develop Nuclear, yes admits Nuclear programs are underway. Infact there is a reasonale chance that north korea has the means to develop them already.

Also north korea has long range ballistic missles capable of holding their nukes. With range capable of easily hitting Hawaii and maybe even california. Iraq would need to have other means of delivering them, The missile defence shield is a joke so you arent safe.

Another great thing. North Korea is selling their Nuclear and Missile technology to Iran.

So how about this, One word: Iran

__________________
I am Hanabal, Phear my elephants

powerclown

Never let it be said that the Left cannot be as extreme and reactionary in it's views as the Right.

pan6467

So are you implying it was safer to invade Sadam because we knew he had nothing?

Wouldn't it make far more sense if you are "liberating" and "taking out the Triangle of Terror (or whatever phrase W used for Iran, Iraq and N. Korea)" to go after the worst (N. Korea) first, then the second (Iran) and finally Iraq?

But of course the first 2 offer nothing of value (such as ooooo I don't know..... OIL).

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Both sides can be horrid and as bad as the other.... especially when emotions are brought into play.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

RangerDick

Sorry bout that dead link. Maybe this time it'll work..

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021002-2.html

Willravel, you conveniently glossed over the paragraph directly above the one you quoted. It said something about the Iraqi regime's brutal repression of its civilian population. I think an argument can be made that ending that brutal repression could be considered liberating. Would you consider that a good intention?

powerclown

...UNTIL SAID COUNTRY STARTS ASKING OTHER COUNTRIES FOR LARGE FAVORS.

Mephisto2

Thanks for the post and link. I had not read this before.

Interesting. Just shows you I was right when I said the question of the "legality" of the war is still open to question; in the US at least.

This doesn't change my opinion that the war turned out to be a mistake.


Mr Mephisto

FoolThemAll

Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I don't understand how these two sentences can be right next to each other.

pan: I don't find merit in the "You can't take care of that bully because you failed to take care of those other three bullies" argument.

Because our past 'liberation' attempts were less than golden, we're not capable of wanting to do it the right way this time around?

Oops. I'll grant you that one. Would most likely be an improved situation, but it'd be imperialism and not liberation.

A definite possibility, but not evidence that liberation was a lie. That's what this imagination session was about.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Bodyhammer86

Just to clarify, WE CANNOT FUCKING HANDLE NORTH KOREA THE SAME WAY WE HANDLED IRAQ! To quote myself:

__________________
Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

pan6467

Don't grant the favors, that is what embargos and such are for.

If we're foolish and stupid enough to grant those favors to an oppressive and brutal dictatorship and not getting human rights restored in their country then we are guilty of allowing that dictator to run rampant and we have no right to complain about him (as a government, the people can and hopefully policy changes).

But this is still not a reason for going to war.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Hanabal

thats my point, america can not handle north korea. but going in to iraq because of wmd when North Korea is far worse is not very ethical.

The saying "why don't you pick on someone your own size" comes to mind.

__________________
I am Hanabal, Phear my elephants

pan6467

Sorry, should have stated my question with that.

If that scenario does happen, then we liberated Iraq for what? And do we contest the election and go back in?

To answer the other:

Who was Sadam bullying, though? And no, it's not we can't take care of the other bullies, it's WE CHOSE TO TAKE ON THE WEAKER OF THE 3.

If you say he bullied his own people..... again I ask does that not set a precedence to have the far left tell China Bush is bullying them and ignoring their rights and putting dissenters into prisons for life with no trial?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bodyhammer86

To be honest, we probably could topple Kim's regime in North Korea, but it would take some of the efforts that it took to wage World War II.

__________________
Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

Willravel

Forced democracy and freedom are not interchangable. Democracy can lead to or mean freedom, but it doesn't have to. If they have a democracy, they can still become victims of their government. Remember Waco? That was not pretty.

uncle_el

one would hope that nothing is ever handled like the way in which iraq was handled.

__________________
An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of inprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses. - Malcolm X

FoolThemAll

Precisely who he was 'bullying'. And I don't find fault with choosing to take on the weaker of the 3, it seems a wise tactical move.

Unless the dictator was benevolent, and it's not so in this case, a properly imposed democracy will mean more liberty. If Waco-esque situations come about, the people will be better equipped to handle them under a democracy than under a despotism.

And I submit that we are generally an incredibly liberated people, despite occurences like Waco.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.