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Old 01-07-2005, 01:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Soldiers

While reading reports from Iraq today I noticed something that struck me as odd. The article said something about Iraqi soldiers dieing in a bombing. Here is the strange thing, I notice that I feel worse about Iraqi soldiers dieing then our own soldiers. I don't know why I feel like this but for some reason I feel like these soldiers are giving a lot more than ours. They go to work with a fraction of the gear we have, by joining the military they put their entire family at risk, they are taking a much larger risk than our soldiers. I hope that their sacrifice will not be invain.

I know our soldiers are making big sacrifices also (especially since it isn't for themselfs) but at the same time I have a feeling that there is this shadow over everything they do because I don't have faith that our government has been interested in what is best for Iraq as a primary concern since the begging of the war (just look at how often the justifications have changed). Also since our soldiers are removed from the results of the war (aside from their death) they do not always act for what is best for Iraq.

Overall I think the real heros in Iraq are the Iraqis who haven chosen to try and make it a better place knowing the risk they face.

What do you all think?
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Overall I think the real heros in Iraq are the Iraqis who haven chosen to try and make it a better place knowing the risk they face.
I think the real heros in Iraq are the ones who are trying to make it a better place, period. When this is over with Iraq would be a much better place than it was with Saddam, cutting our soldiers and those of other countries out of that equation is doing them a huge disservice.
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Old 01-07-2005, 03:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I hope that their sacrifice will not be invain.
It is sad hearing about those Iraqi civilians that suit up to help their own police force and end up dead because of a cowardly roadside bombing, but the fact that they still line up for the job shows that they have a positive attitude and are willing to help out their country for the better.
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Old 01-07-2005, 04:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quite honestly, I don't consider anyone fighting "heroes", but I do tend to favor the Iraqi fighters more for the simple fact that it was their land that was wrongly invaded, it is their friends and families that are wrongfully being killed and it is them who really are fighting for justice, rather than simply taking orders from superiors and blindly fighting an unjust war.

I'm not referring to the "terrorists" killing innocent people to get their points across, I'm referring to the citizens who are trying to protect their homes, friends and families and realize their current situation is no worse than it was under Saddam, the only difference is that they actually have sufficient allies helping them remove the enemy at any cost necessary.

The only heroes in my eyes are the people who realize that killing one another is not the answer, the people who refuse to involve themselves in the senseless killing, not just the Iraqis, but also the Americans who realize the value of life.
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Old 01-07-2005, 05:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtyrulz
... and end up dead because of a cowardly roadside bombing...
Just an aside, and forgive me if its a little off topic here, but as long as we are talking heroes and courage and such, I think its relevant.

Why are roadside bombings and the now infamous IEDs so often used with the word 'cowardly'? I mean do we really have such a romanticized sense of the battlefield that we expect our opponents to come out and challenge us to a duel? Plus, its perposterous to think that we don't do the same thing. Who do you think invented the Claymore Mine, or hundreds of other devices designed to strike our enemies without warning while not exposing our own troops to to harm?

I mean seriously, do we cal SEALs cowardly for planting explosives? Do we call a stealth fighter pilot when he drops a 2,000lb LGB on a terrorist hide out, giving them no warning or recourse? Heck, were the Rovolutionaries cowards for hiding behind rocks and shooting at the Redcoats from cover?

Seriously, can anyone give me a good reason why we should consider these attacks cowardly versus other military tactics? Or is our continued attachment of 'cowardly' to 'roadside bombing' evidence of an effective propaganda machine?

Josh
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Old 01-07-2005, 05:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
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1 vote here for propaganda.

Repetition is the mother of all learning. Say it often enough, and it will sink in.

edit - when we do it, it's called Economy of Force
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Old 01-07-2005, 06:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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IED's are fair game aslong as they are aimed at military targets. I don't call attacking unarmed Iraqi Police or military personal coming back from graduation fair game.
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Old 01-07-2005, 06:24 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
While reading reports from Iraq today I noticed something that struck me as odd. The article said something about Iraqi soldiers dieing in a bombing. Here is the strange thing, I notice that I feel worse about Iraqi soldiers dieing then our own soldiers. I don't know why I feel like this but for some reason I feel like these soldiers are giving a lot more than ours.
I think this post is extremely disrespectful to every fallen American/Coalition soldier that has died in Iraq. Period. An American soldier KIA is just as dead as an Iraqi soldier KIA. How does an Iraqi soldier lose more?

I really hope no family member of a soldier stationed in Iraq reads your post.
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Old 01-07-2005, 06:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't know that I agree that policemen are out, especially when they are a key part of the anti-insurgency effort. I certainly don't think we'd cut them out of our planning. Anyway, it was more an observation than anything else, as I'm not even opposed to propoganda really. But it isn't very constructive for accurate analysis of whats going on, which is of course the reason military history students like me avoid using such phrases when we can.
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And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy.
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'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see."

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Old 01-07-2005, 06:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerDick
I think this post is extremely disrespectful to every fallen American/Coalition soldier that has died in Iraq. Period. An American soldier KIA is just as dead as an Iraqi soldier KIA. How does an Iraqi soldier lose more?

I really hope no family member of a soldier stationed in Iraq reads your post.

And yet 95% of America thinks an american death is worse than an Iraqi death. My post was not ment to be disrespectful but instead meant to bring up discussion on soldiers. If you think American soldiers have more to loose you are mistaken. Iraqi soldiers risk their entire family, does an american soldier do that? No. They both risk their lives but which group gets the more risky positions? Which group gets worse equipment? We have soldiers complainging (rightly so) about lack of humvee armor. At least they have body armor (the Iraqi's don't). American soldiers live in a secured base, where do the Iraqi soldiers live? When America pulls out our troops are safe, how about theirs? Nope. If you think i'm being disrespectful i'm sorry but i'm not. I did not say by dieing there loss is more, i'm not comparing the value of one death to another. I am compairing the fact that an Iraqi risks more than an Americian.
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
And yet 95% of America thinks an american death is worse than an Iraqi death.
89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Can you provide evidence of your contention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
My post was not ment to be disrespectful but instead meant to bring up discussion on soldiers. If you think American soldiers have more to loose you are mistaken.[
I never said American soldiers have more to lose. You made the assertion that Iraqi's do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
No. They both risk their lives but which group gets the more risky positions?
They both risk their lives. You said it. Americans and Iraqis are both on the front lines of the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
Which group gets worse equipment? We have soldiers complainging (rightly so) about lack of humvee armor.
At least they have body armor (the Iraqi's don't).
I give up. Who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
American soldiers live in a secured base, where do the Iraqi soldiers live?
Do you mean like that secure base where all those American soldiers were killed in that mess hall bombing last month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
When America pulls out our troops are safe, how about theirs? Nope. If you think i'm being disrespectful i'm sorry but i'm not. I did not say by dieing there loss is more, i'm not comparing the value of one death to another. I am compairing the fact that an Iraqi risks more than an Americian.
I refer you to your orignal post when you said you feel worse for a dead Iraqi soldier than a dead American soldier.
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I do feel worse for an Iraqi soldier what is wrong with that? How is that insulting? As for the rest of your comments.... Look in the media what gets reported? 3 Americans killed, 1 American shot, ect but yet we never hear anything about the Iraqi deaths. You have to go to BBC or elsewhere normaly to get that info.

So they hit one of our mess halls, i'm glad you remember that. Do you also remember the countless times Iraqi soldiers were killed waiting to get paychecks, sign up, ect? Of course not it is the 1 time it happens to Americans then we hear about it.

As for the rest of you post please explain to me how imature quips further the discussion?
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Old 01-07-2005, 07:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Here is a challenge to anyone that disagrees with my comment on American deaths reported more than Iraqi deaths. Find me the current number of American soldier deaths then find me the number of Iraqi deaths. By in large many Americans don't care about Iraqi deaths on either side.
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Old 01-08-2005, 03:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
I do feel worse for an Iraqi soldier what is wrong with that? How is that insulting? As for the rest of your comments.... Look in the media what gets reported? 3 Americans killed, 1 American shot, ect but yet we never hear anything about the Iraqi deaths. You have to go to BBC or elsewhere normaly to get that info.

So they hit one of our mess halls, i'm glad you remember that. Do you also remember the countless times Iraqi soldiers were killed waiting to get paychecks, sign up, ect? Of course not it is the 1 time it happens to Americans then we hear about it.

As for the rest of you post please explain to me how imature quips further the discussion?
I don't know what news cast you are watching but there is reporting every single day of the American and Iraqi KIA. As for remembering, I don't remember every single incident that killed Americans let alone the Iraqis, that would be almost physically impossible and I doubt you remember them all so your point is ??????? While I admit I have a certain admiration for the Iraqis for being brave and taking the risk they take to make their country a better place I feel their KIA is no better than our KIA. Do you not feel our soldiers are equally as brave? After all, they are literally laying it on the line every day and some sacrifice it all for complete strangers to make Iraq a better place. Is there anything important enough in your life that you feel passionate enough about and would be willing to sacrifice it all for? Or do you just sit around in security of your armchair all day feeling sorry for Iraqis who are willing to sacrifice everything they have for freedom and the promise of a better tomorrow? I think both the Iraqis and Americans over there laying it on the line every day deserve our equal support.
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Old 01-08-2005, 12:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
Overall I think the real heros in Iraq are the Iraqis who haven chosen to try and make it a better place knowing the risk they face.

What do you all think?
Well I think Americans have fought many wars on foreign soil and the people that live there always have more to gain or lose than our soldiers.

It also seems to me that those willing to make sacrifices (become heroes) fighting for their homeland is an easier decision to make than those who are there to help them.

Neither group deserves to be judged less heroic than the other but our soldiers are there risking their lives for someone elses freedom. Most of them would rather be home with their wives and husbands, etc... I don't see how you can you assign their heroism to less status than the people they are there to help.
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Old 01-08-2005, 12:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
The only heroes in my eyes are the people who realize that killing one another is not the answer, the people who refuse to involve themselves in the senseless killing, not just the Iraqis, but also the Americans who realize the value of life.
yea seriously what has war ever solved, nazism fascism slavery.....


this post is in extremely bad taste to whoever lost a family member in the war. if you love the iraqi's so much move to iraq. you should be ashamed of yourself talking this way about people that put their life on the line to protect YOUR rights. Thats like hiring a bodyguard and yelling at him when he shoots somebody to save your life.
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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EDIT: Forget it; everyone here already knows how I feel about soldiers so there is no point in reiterating it. I will say just one thing though. Spare me the childish "move to Iraq" and "they are dying for my freedoms" non-sense, it is irrelevant and annoying. I will just simply state that NOBODY is in control of my life but me and my creator, whatever/whomever that might be, so don't' bother telling me that so and so is dying for me, because they are not, as much as you would like to believe they are.

Last edited by Rdr4evr; 01-08-2005 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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if you love the godamn iraqi people so much why are you so against making their life better by removing their tyrant leader? You seriously think that the war overall wont improve the lives of the iraqi's?

You are seriously a sick individual if you dont care that an american soldier dies fighting. That is the most unpatriotic thing i have ever heard. I am sick of people that hate America so godamn much move to canada hippy
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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*sigh* ok, I admit it, I'm an unpatriotic hippy...lol...well, it's better than being a blind patriot, so I don't mind.
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Old 01-08-2005, 02:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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you still didnt answer my question.
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Old 01-08-2005, 03:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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This is the sort of nonsense that gets threads closed and warnings issued.

Be polite and on topic or face the consequences of your actions.

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Old 01-08-2005, 03:56 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm still waiting for someone to find me the number of iraqi soldiers have died (excluding the 100,000 prior to the reformation of the army). IE how many Iraqi soldiers/police officers have died since they US was working with them.
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr4evr
Quite honestly, I don't consider anyone fighting "heroes", but I do tend to favor the Iraqi fighters more for the simple fact that it was their land that was wrongly invaded, it is their friends and families that are wrongfully being killed and it is them who really are fighting for justice, rather than simply taking orders from superiors and blindly fighting an unjust war.

I'm not referring to the "terrorists" killing innocent people to get their points across, I'm referring to the citizens who are trying to protect their homes, friends and families and realize their current situation is no worse than it was under Saddam, the only difference is that they actually have sufficient allies helping them remove the enemy at any cost necessary.

The only heroes in my eyes are the people who realize that killing one another is not the answer, the people who refuse to involve themselves in the senseless killing, not just the Iraqis, but also the Americans who realize the value of life.
Just to make sure I understand, are you saying the Iraqis are no better off as a result of our actions there?
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Old 01-08-2005, 04:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerDick
I think this post is extremely disrespectful to every fallen American/Coalition soldier that has died in Iraq. Period. An American soldier KIA is just as dead as an Iraqi soldier KIA. How does an Iraqi soldier lose more?

I really hope no family member of a soldier stationed in Iraq reads your post.
With apologies to Newton, we all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Some people try to climb back down.

Although this might be a little off-topic, when my son was in Spain, I made him vote absentee. I told him "A lot of people died for you to be able to do this."

For those who might care, I include this link:

The Veteran

and this photo:

<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQCfAqEYt96u1P4dkgYp2HE9o0Dso*fNqNIzoc97dfXRdHFqvZYwvr9kjeY1Kbpl!fRpYppU7zyapU55*RzwheuW*7JVkk6oIGUTRsEQabdVuJ08uoNWvA/Wheelchair.jpg?dc=4675505067505700777></IMG>

I'm not going to explain that one to anybody.
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Old 01-08-2005, 06:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
I will just simply state that NOBODY is in control of my life but me and my creator, whatever/whomever that might be
Keep telling yourself that. Because the laws of this country dont touch you.

Quote:
so don't' bother telling me that so and so is dying for me, because they are not, as much as you would like to believe they are.
I think a good way to look at it, is it's disrespectful to those that HAVE died for you. From the Revolution to WWII, even you can't claim that they didnt directly benefit you.
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Old 01-08-2005, 06:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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This thread is disrespectful to Americans,Iraqi's,Canadians and Hippies..this thread makes me sad.
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
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It may be helpful for everyone to understand that "Disrespect" is usually an emotional response created in the mind of the individual who feels it. That said....simply because someone holds opinion of something contrary to yourself, does not automatically mean the are showing a lack of respect.

Please keep this in mind.................
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:18 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
I'm still waiting for someone to find me the number of iraqi soldiers have died (excluding the 100,000 prior to the reformation of the army). IE how many Iraqi soldiers/police officers have died since they US was working with them.

As for this reply.....you will likely be waiting quite some time, as the administration has decided to forgo accurate data on this number, and no one else truly has enough access to gather the information. This has led to broad speculation concerning this number, particularly in alternative publications..

Estimates currently range from 35,000 to 100,000 dead among the combined Iraqi population. And these numbers do not include Iraqi military deaths, as there can be no designation of such in this kind of warfare.
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Old 01-09-2005, 07:46 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Exactly Tecoyah, this is part of my problem, why is this information being withheld from us? Unfortunatly we won't find out until after the war accuret numbers because there isn't any public outcry to know these numbers. We in general don't really care about Iraqi deaths.
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Old 01-09-2005, 08:34 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
We in general don't really care about Iraqi deaths.
Because they are the enemy, the terrorists, silly. Don't you listen to anything George Bush says.
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Old 01-09-2005, 08:47 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
We in general don't really care about Iraqi deaths.
Who is this 'we' you mention? Why would someone not care about Iraqi civilian deaths? Are there people applauding somewhere when Iraqi civilians die? Things get interesting when these unknown figures of deaths are used to justify the 'insurgency' and provide them with some sort of moral legitimacy, which I don't think they deserve. The Iraqi people want peace and stability, like any other. The 'insurgents' idea of a society represents regression, intimidation and isolation; more of the same of what Hussein gave them or worse. The coalition stands for progression, growth and partnership among the rest of the civilized world. The Iraqis are understandably nervous about moving forward because they've never yet moved forward in the modern world.

As for having any regard for Iraqi soldiers, I hold them in high regard. They are the lynchpin in this entire scenario, and they need to continue to be built up and trained. I have no regard at all for the 'insurgents' who are doing everything in their power to intimidate the populace and kill off the legitimate Iraqi security force.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:49 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sob

and this photo:

<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQCfAqEYt96u1P4dkgYp2HE9o0Dso*fNqNIzoc97dfXRdHFqvZYwvr9kjeY1Kbpl!fRpYppU7zyapU55*RzwheuW*7JVkk6oIGUTRsEQabdVuJ08uoNWvA/Wheelchair.jpg?dc=4675505067505700777></IMG>

I'm not going to explain that one to anybody.
Sob,

That is an awesome photo and pretty much sums up the state of the nation today. It always bothers me when people don't pay attention at ball games when the anthem is being played, or talking on their cell phones, eating, chewing gum, etc. The ball players do it too. Is it too much too ask for a minute of respect? but I bet it's more from ignorance than malice. I think most people don't know protocol or ettiquette regarding this type of thing.

I think we need to bring back Civics Class in to the schools. (By the way, I am commenting on the photo and our nation in general and not the topic in this thread).

Where did you get that photo?
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:08 AM   #33 (permalink)
 
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civics classes?
without also bringing back some level of encouragement for students to think for themselves, this class amounts to little more or less than political indoctrination.
which would seem to me a sign of the bushtimes--you can counter problems that might be raised by critique of irrational policies by working to create a totally servile public by using education as an explicitly political instrument.

this sets up even more people for this kind of discussion: introduce military personnel as fetish-objects to cut off debate about whether a particular state action is or is not defensable....because if you oppose the policy, you disrespect the folk who have put themselves in the position of having to carry it out (for whatever reason---this type of argument tends to reduce the motivations folk might have to enter to military to a one-dimensional matter).

follow this pattern to its logical conclusion and you can imagine people expressing everything about how the think of america in relation to the world as summed up in those stupid magnetic ribbons you can buy at 7-11. one-dimensional thinking for a one-dimensional regime enframing its one-dimensional conception of the world as a natural horizon. if you want to make servility a habit, get people early. and let no child be left behind.


on an unrelated note, i have never understood why it is necessary to play the national anthem at sporting events......
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:17 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I meant Civics Classes as a generic term, but I envisioned one that introduced the basics: Nothing wrong with that.

Obviously, we need to teach our students critical thinking and levels of analysis, I wasn't mixing the issues and they're not mutually exclusive.

EX: how our government works (branches, bill to law ec), civic pride, basic manners and etiquette, respect for the elderly etc. At least a rudimentary learning. Then you can decide what you want to do with that information, but at least make it available.

I agree that it is rather odd to play the national anthem before a sports games, and have military procedures, flybys - seems a bit excessive and inappropriate too. But my point was, if they're playing it, proper protocol should be exercised. (I know, I know, it's a personal choice, but I'm just expressing my opinion, I'm not advocating draconian measures for patriotism).
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:00 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
Sob,

That is an awesome photo and pretty much sums up the state of the nation today. It always bothers me when people don't pay attention at ball games when the anthem is being played, or talking on their cell phones, eating, chewing gum, etc. The ball players do it too. Is it too much too ask for a minute of respect? but I bet it's more from ignorance than malice. I think most people don't know protocol or ettiquette regarding this type of thing.

I think we need to bring back Civics Class in to the schools. (By the way, I am commenting on the photo and our nation in general and not the topic in this thread).

Where did you get that photo?
Here:

The Veteran

Although I am no longer in the military, I live in a community with a large military presence. One or another of my friends is always e-mailing me something like this.

I was encouraged to hear from one of them at a party today that we haven't buried a Navy SEAL since April. I also met a SEAL who had been in Iraq, and who is going back in February.

It was interesting.
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:03 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
on an unrelated note, i have never understood why it is necessary to play the national anthem at sporting events......
Because it would take too long to sing the Communist Manifesto?
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:37 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sob
Because it would take too long to sing the Communist Manifesto?


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Old 01-09-2005, 07:02 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sob
Because it would take too long to sing the Communist Manifesto?
Let freedom ring. Fuck the government.

I would also be very interested to hear how many Iraqis have died in this endeavor. It's been glossed over in so many reports that I've lost count. "1 American soldier and 50 of some other guys died in..." how many times have you heard something similar? Wouldn't it be nice to hear the truth for a change?
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:21 AM   #39 (permalink)
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If memory serves, the tradition of playing the national anthem before sporting events started in WW2 when it was done for a baseball game (can't recall which). It proved so popular that it has been done ever since and has spread to other sports.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:32 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sob
Because it would take too long to sing the Communist Manifesto?
What about La Marseillaise or Amhrán na bhFiann?

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