01-07-2005, 01:27 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Soldiers
While reading reports from Iraq today I noticed something that struck me as odd. The article said something about Iraqi soldiers dieing in a bombing. Here is the strange thing, I notice that I feel worse about Iraqi soldiers dieing then our own soldiers. I don't know why I feel like this but for some reason I feel like these soldiers are giving a lot more than ours. They go to work with a fraction of the gear we have, by joining the military they put their entire family at risk, they are taking a much larger risk than our soldiers. I hope that their sacrifice will not be invain.
I know our soldiers are making big sacrifices also (especially since it isn't for themselfs) but at the same time I have a feeling that there is this shadow over everything they do because I don't have faith that our government has been interested in what is best for Iraq as a primary concern since the begging of the war (just look at how often the justifications have changed). Also since our soldiers are removed from the results of the war (aside from their death) they do not always act for what is best for Iraq. Overall I think the real heros in Iraq are the Iraqis who haven chosen to try and make it a better place knowing the risk they face. What do you all think? |
01-07-2005, 03:45 PM | #2 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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01-07-2005, 03:54 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: io-where?
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the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation. faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. - Merriam-Webster's dictionary |
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01-07-2005, 04:19 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Banned
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Quite honestly, I don't consider anyone fighting "heroes", but I do tend to favor the Iraqi fighters more for the simple fact that it was their land that was wrongly invaded, it is their friends and families that are wrongfully being killed and it is them who really are fighting for justice, rather than simply taking orders from superiors and blindly fighting an unjust war.
I'm not referring to the "terrorists" killing innocent people to get their points across, I'm referring to the citizens who are trying to protect their homes, friends and families and realize their current situation is no worse than it was under Saddam, the only difference is that they actually have sufficient allies helping them remove the enemy at any cost necessary. The only heroes in my eyes are the people who realize that killing one another is not the answer, the people who refuse to involve themselves in the senseless killing, not just the Iraqis, but also the Americans who realize the value of life. |
01-07-2005, 05:43 PM | #5 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Allen, TX
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Why are roadside bombings and the now infamous IEDs so often used with the word 'cowardly'? I mean do we really have such a romanticized sense of the battlefield that we expect our opponents to come out and challenge us to a duel? Plus, its perposterous to think that we don't do the same thing. Who do you think invented the Claymore Mine, or hundreds of other devices designed to strike our enemies without warning while not exposing our own troops to to harm? I mean seriously, do we cal SEALs cowardly for planting explosives? Do we call a stealth fighter pilot when he drops a 2,000lb LGB on a terrorist hide out, giving them no warning or recourse? Heck, were the Rovolutionaries cowards for hiding behind rocks and shooting at the Redcoats from cover? Seriously, can anyone give me a good reason why we should consider these attacks cowardly versus other military tactics? Or is our continued attachment of 'cowardly' to 'roadside bombing' evidence of an effective propaganda machine? Josh
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"Don't tell me we're so blind we cannot see that this is my land! I can't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy. Yes this is my land, I won't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. 'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see." - DTH |
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01-07-2005, 06:01 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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IED's are fair game aslong as they are aimed at military targets. I don't call attacking unarmed Iraqi Police or military personal coming back from graduation fair game.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-07-2005, 06:24 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Loser
Location: manhattan
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I really hope no family member of a soldier stationed in Iraq reads your post. |
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01-07-2005, 06:33 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Allen, TX
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I don't know that I agree that policemen are out, especially when they are a key part of the anti-insurgency effort. I certainly don't think we'd cut them out of our planning. Anyway, it was more an observation than anything else, as I'm not even opposed to propoganda really. But it isn't very constructive for accurate analysis of whats going on, which is of course the reason military history students like me avoid using such phrases when we can.
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"Don't tell me we're so blind we cannot see that this is my land! I can't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy. Yes this is my land, I won't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. 'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see." - DTH |
01-07-2005, 06:46 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
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And yet 95% of America thinks an american death is worse than an Iraqi death. My post was not ment to be disrespectful but instead meant to bring up discussion on soldiers. If you think American soldiers have more to loose you are mistaken. Iraqi soldiers risk their entire family, does an american soldier do that? No. They both risk their lives but which group gets the more risky positions? Which group gets worse equipment? We have soldiers complainging (rightly so) about lack of humvee armor. At least they have body armor (the Iraqi's don't). American soldiers live in a secured base, where do the Iraqi soldiers live? When America pulls out our troops are safe, how about theirs? Nope. If you think i'm being disrespectful i'm sorry but i'm not. I did not say by dieing there loss is more, i'm not comparing the value of one death to another. I am compairing the fact that an Iraqi risks more than an Americian. |
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01-07-2005, 07:13 PM | #11 (permalink) | ||||||
Loser
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01-07-2005, 07:22 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Junkie
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I do feel worse for an Iraqi soldier what is wrong with that? How is that insulting? As for the rest of your comments.... Look in the media what gets reported? 3 Americans killed, 1 American shot, ect but yet we never hear anything about the Iraqi deaths. You have to go to BBC or elsewhere normaly to get that info.
So they hit one of our mess halls, i'm glad you remember that. Do you also remember the countless times Iraqi soldiers were killed waiting to get paychecks, sign up, ect? Of course not it is the 1 time it happens to Americans then we hear about it. As for the rest of you post please explain to me how imature quips further the discussion? |
01-07-2005, 07:37 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Here is a challenge to anyone that disagrees with my comment on American deaths reported more than Iraqi deaths. Find me the current number of American soldier deaths then find me the number of Iraqi deaths. By in large many Americans don't care about Iraqi deaths on either side.
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01-08-2005, 03:31 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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01-08-2005, 12:24 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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It also seems to me that those willing to make sacrifices (become heroes) fighting for their homeland is an easier decision to make than those who are there to help them. Neither group deserves to be judged less heroic than the other but our soldiers are there risking their lives for someone elses freedom. Most of them would rather be home with their wives and husbands, etc... I don't see how you can you assign their heroism to less status than the people they are there to help. |
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01-08-2005, 12:44 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
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this post is in extremely bad taste to whoever lost a family member in the war. if you love the iraqi's so much move to iraq. you should be ashamed of yourself talking this way about people that put their life on the line to protect YOUR rights. Thats like hiring a bodyguard and yelling at him when he shoots somebody to save your life. |
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01-08-2005, 02:20 PM | #17 (permalink) |
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EDIT: Forget it; everyone here already knows how I feel about soldiers so there is no point in reiterating it. I will say just one thing though. Spare me the childish "move to Iraq" and "they are dying for my freedoms" non-sense, it is irrelevant and annoying. I will just simply state that NOBODY is in control of my life but me and my creator, whatever/whomever that might be, so don't' bother telling me that so and so is dying for me, because they are not, as much as you would like to believe they are.
Last edited by Rdr4evr; 01-08-2005 at 02:34 PM.. |
01-08-2005, 02:34 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Psycho
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if you love the godamn iraqi people so much why are you so against making their life better by removing their tyrant leader? You seriously think that the war overall wont improve the lives of the iraqi's?
You are seriously a sick individual if you dont care that an american soldier dies fighting. That is the most unpatriotic thing i have ever heard. I am sick of people that hate America so godamn much move to canada hippy |
01-08-2005, 03:07 PM | #21 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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This is the sort of nonsense that gets threads closed and warnings issued.
Be polite and on topic or face the consequences of your actions.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
01-08-2005, 04:24 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
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01-08-2005, 04:52 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
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Some people try to climb back down. Although this might be a little off-topic, when my son was in Spain, I made him vote absentee. I told him "A lot of people died for you to be able to do this." For those who might care, I include this link: The Veteran and this photo: <img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQCfAqEYt96u1P4dkgYp2HE9o0Dso*fNqNIzoc97dfXRdHFqvZYwvr9kjeY1Kbpl!fRpYppU7zyapU55*RzwheuW*7JVkk6oIGUTRsEQabdVuJ08uoNWvA/Wheelchair.jpg?dc=4675505067505700777></IMG> I'm not going to explain that one to anybody. |
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01-08-2005, 06:03 PM | #25 (permalink) | ||
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01-09-2005, 05:11 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Illusionary
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It may be helpful for everyone to understand that "Disrespect" is usually an emotional response created in the mind of the individual who feels it. That said....simply because someone holds opinion of something contrary to yourself, does not automatically mean the are showing a lack of respect.
Please keep this in mind.................
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
01-09-2005, 05:18 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Illusionary
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As for this reply.....you will likely be waiting quite some time, as the administration has decided to forgo accurate data on this number, and no one else truly has enough access to gather the information. This has led to broad speculation concerning this number, particularly in alternative publications.. Estimates currently range from 35,000 to 100,000 dead among the combined Iraqi population. And these numbers do not include Iraqi military deaths, as there can be no designation of such in this kind of warfare.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
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01-09-2005, 07:46 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Exactly Tecoyah, this is part of my problem, why is this information being withheld from us? Unfortunatly we won't find out until after the war accuret numbers because there isn't any public outcry to know these numbers. We in general don't really care about Iraqi deaths.
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01-09-2005, 08:34 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
Junk
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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard. |
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01-09-2005, 08:47 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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As for having any regard for Iraqi soldiers, I hold them in high regard. They are the lynchpin in this entire scenario, and they need to continue to be built up and trained. I have no regard at all for the 'insurgents' who are doing everything in their power to intimidate the populace and kill off the legitimate Iraqi security force. |
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01-09-2005, 10:49 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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That is an awesome photo and pretty much sums up the state of the nation today. It always bothers me when people don't pay attention at ball games when the anthem is being played, or talking on their cell phones, eating, chewing gum, etc. The ball players do it too. Is it too much too ask for a minute of respect? but I bet it's more from ignorance than malice. I think most people don't know protocol or ettiquette regarding this type of thing. I think we need to bring back Civics Class in to the schools. (By the way, I am commenting on the photo and our nation in general and not the topic in this thread). Where did you get that photo? |
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01-09-2005, 11:08 AM | #33 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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civics classes?
without also bringing back some level of encouragement for students to think for themselves, this class amounts to little more or less than political indoctrination. which would seem to me a sign of the bushtimes--you can counter problems that might be raised by critique of irrational policies by working to create a totally servile public by using education as an explicitly political instrument. this sets up even more people for this kind of discussion: introduce military personnel as fetish-objects to cut off debate about whether a particular state action is or is not defensable....because if you oppose the policy, you disrespect the folk who have put themselves in the position of having to carry it out (for whatever reason---this type of argument tends to reduce the motivations folk might have to enter to military to a one-dimensional matter). follow this pattern to its logical conclusion and you can imagine people expressing everything about how the think of america in relation to the world as summed up in those stupid magnetic ribbons you can buy at 7-11. one-dimensional thinking for a one-dimensional regime enframing its one-dimensional conception of the world as a natural horizon. if you want to make servility a habit, get people early. and let no child be left behind. on an unrelated note, i have never understood why it is necessary to play the national anthem at sporting events......
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
01-09-2005, 11:17 AM | #34 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I meant Civics Classes as a generic term, but I envisioned one that introduced the basics: Nothing wrong with that.
Obviously, we need to teach our students critical thinking and levels of analysis, I wasn't mixing the issues and they're not mutually exclusive. EX: how our government works (branches, bill to law ec), civic pride, basic manners and etiquette, respect for the elderly etc. At least a rudimentary learning. Then you can decide what you want to do with that information, but at least make it available. I agree that it is rather odd to play the national anthem before a sports games, and have military procedures, flybys - seems a bit excessive and inappropriate too. But my point was, if they're playing it, proper protocol should be exercised. (I know, I know, it's a personal choice, but I'm just expressing my opinion, I'm not advocating draconian measures for patriotism). |
01-09-2005, 06:00 PM | #35 (permalink) | |
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The Veteran Although I am no longer in the military, I live in a community with a large military presence. One or another of my friends is always e-mailing me something like this. I was encouraged to hear from one of them at a party today that we haven't buried a Navy SEAL since April. I also met a SEAL who had been in Iraq, and who is going back in February. It was interesting. |
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01-09-2005, 07:02 PM | #38 (permalink) | |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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I would also be very interested to hear how many Iraqis have died in this endeavor. It's been glossed over in so many reports that I've lost count. "1 American soldier and 50 of some other guys died in..." how many times have you heard something similar? Wouldn't it be nice to hear the truth for a change?
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We Must Dissent. |
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01-10-2005, 10:21 AM | #39 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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If memory serves, the tradition of playing the national anthem before sporting events started in WW2 when it was done for a baseball game (can't recall which). It proved so popular that it has been done ever since and has spread to other sports.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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