Fohur2

152,000 Dead 510,000 Injured

madp

"How Many is 120,000?" (you may, however, choose to donate to an organization other than the Red Cross, as thier administrative overhead is purported to significantly dilute donations)
http://www.toddbinder.com/Toll.aspx


What does a humanitarian disaster look like on the ground?
WARNING. . ..EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PHOTO BELOW DEPICTING HUMAN CASAULTIES is linked below:


http://homepage.mac.com/jlgolson/ruumiita4ft.jpg

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why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

sob

Talk about high horses!!

Anyone can claim anything they want on-line in regard to their charitable donations. I'm not going to post my tax return for you.

That said, over the past ten years, I have donated thousands to charities, chief among them worldwide polio eradication. That is presently shifting toward providing drinking water free of Guinea worm in places like Ghana.

I do it through the local Rotary club, because 100% of the funds get to where they belong. When Rotary International helps with this cause, I will donate there, too.

I do NOT (unlike knee-jerk bleeding hearts) throw money at organizations who profess to be helping, but who keep up to 90% of the donations for "operating overhead."

For decades, the US government has operated in the manner you suggest, namely, gather loads of money, then distribute it willy-nilly. It doesn't work.

More thoughtful individuals try to ensure that the money gets to the right place. Unfortunately, these wise people never seem to be in our Congress.

Now, if you're finished hijacking the thread, I'll get back to the subject I brought up, namely that the UN misses no opportunity to dump on the United States. Your accusation of using this tragedy as a "cheap political mop" would more appropriately be directed at Jan Egeland, but you might have missed his name, due to your skipping over the part that mentions the huge amount of aid the US is mobilizing.

One final note:

Here's another guy who will be among the first to scream that the US is "stingy."

Helpful-looking sort, isn't he?

madp

If I may step up on my soapbox for a minute. . . .

It's not worth the wear and tear on your keyboard to get caught up in these debates about who's more generous/stingy. This is an enourmous catastrophe, and all the world's citizens need to step up to the plate.

So far, the US has pledged $350million, and the total cummulative pledges of world governments (including the US) have reached about $500million. Early estimates suggest that over $2billion of relief is needed, so private citizens across the world need to step up and give as their means will allow.

Ok, I'm stepping off the soapbox now.

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why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

smooth

If the aid agency is a legitimate organization, it will detail its overhead costs. I haven't heard of any legitimate organization operating under a 90% overhead cost.

What is the point, sob, of posting that last photograph and circling that man? I think your post is inflammatory and I reported it as such.

I find your posts tiresome. I'm sure others find mine to be tiresome, as well. As a result of my personal development and coming to understand that over the course of my being a member here, I have sometimes gone overboard and sometimes moderated myself. I haven't seen you moderate yourself yet. What I have seen you do is attack various members of the TFP community who you believe to be liberals and I don't think your attitude or post content lends to positive community building.


EDIT: I forgot to post this graphic indicating the paltry sums private citizens are donating (as well as some nations') to foreign aid per capita

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Strange Famous

The donations of ordinary people also must be taken into account. The British public have out stripped the donations made by the govt - Mephisto may find this artcle worthy of note in regard to previous comments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4136545.stm

UK tsunami donations reach £45m

The UN is pleading for the world's help
The British public has donated £45m to help the victims of the Asian tsunami, say relief charities.
Up to £1m an hour has been donated and the government has raised its pledge from £15m to £50m, making it one of the largest international donors.

A three-minute silence is to be held on Wednesday to remember the 124,000 known to have died - including 34 Britons.

The Queen has sent a New Year message of thanks to British charity workers and those who have made donations.

She said: "The dreadful events in Asia have shocked us all. No one could fail to be moved by the pictures we have seen of the devastation across the region.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with all those who have lost family or friends, and also with those who still await news of loved ones who are missing."

The Queen added she had been impressed by the willingness of Britons to help through "donations, time, money or help with the relief effort on the ground".

Some people are coming off the flights in just their boxer shorts and with no luggage


On Friday alone £13m was received by the Tsunami Earthquake Appeal, set up by the Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC), an umbrella group for leading charities.

Brendan Gormley, the DEC chief executive, said the response to TV and radio appeals had been "absolutely phenomenal".

"But it really doesn't end here. The scale of this disaster means that the recovery process will be very long term and we really would encourage people to continue giving," he said.

He urged people to make internet donations where possible, because they are received immediately.

The website, which has been strengthened to cope with demand, has been receiving more than 11,000 donations an hour.

The DEC is also providing thousands of telephone lines for people to give donations - by calling 0870 60 60 900.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been donated by British businesses and organisations.

The English Premiership's 20 football clubs have donated £1m to the quake fund, with Birmingham City striker Dwight Yorke calling for all the top division's stars to give a week's wages to the relief effort. The England cricket team donated £15,000.

Announcing the increased government donation, Chancellor Gordon Brown said: "We will do all we can in the weeks and months ahead to ease the suffering of the millions left homeless, orphaned and vulnerable, and to help the rebuilding of their communities."

HOW TO DONATE
The Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) is an umbrella group of UK charities including, among others, British Red Cross, Cafod, Oxfam, Save the Children, Tearfund
Call them on 0870 60 60 900 or donate online at www.dec.org.uk
By the end of the week people should be able to donate cash or cheques - made payable to the DEC Tsunami Earthquake Appeal - at High Street banks.
Cash or cheques (made payable to Post Office Ltd) can be donated over the counter at Post Office branches.
Other bodies raising money include the Muslim groups Muslim Aid (020 7377 4200) and Islamic Relief (0121 622 0622) and the Hindu charities Sewa International 0116 261 0303 and the ISKCON Disaster Appeal on 01923 856848.
Sri Lankan organisations including Asia Quake Relief Appeal UK (asia-quakerelief@europe.com) are also raising money


The government has also pledged to meet the costs of transporting any items bought with appeal funds.

And on Friday it announced the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship Diligence and frigate HMS Chatham were heading to the disaster area, aiming to arrive on Tuesday to help with the relief effort.

International Development Secretary Hilary Benn told BBC News: "There is a reconnaissance team now going to the region and they will advise on where these ships can be best be deployed."

HMS Chatham has Lynx helicopters on board which will be used to transport supplies and an RAF C17 transport plane will be used to help move relief supplies.

Some Britons injured in the disaster say they will stay on to help with the aid effort.

David Holborn, 54, from Romford, Essex was swept off Kata Noi beach, near Phuket, and his wife Sophia have been helping with local fundraising events.

"We lost everything, but we are safe," said Mr Holborn.

"If you see what they have lost, it breaks your heart ... I want to help these people."

The British High Commissioner in the Sri Lankan capital Colombo, Steven Evans, said there was a "very good chance" many of those reported missing were still alive.

He said: "Very often, people are thought to be missing but, in fact, they are safe and that fact hasn't become clear to the authorities.

"Alternatively they've moved elsewhere in the island and have yet to report in."

'Money is the best way to help'
Food was beginning to arrive with those who needed it most, he said.

Religious leaders are increasing their efforts to persuade people to contribute as much as they can.

An appeal for donations is being read out in more than 400 mosques across the UK on Friday and many churches are planning weekend collections.

Buddhist, Hindu and Sikh groups have also been raising money.

The Foreign Office is chartering extra passenger planes back to Britain to cope with the demand from stranded tourists.

It has set up an emergency helpline - 020 7008 0000 - for people worried about missing relatives.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Arroe

The United States is donating $350 million now. I fail to see how that is by any means stingy. I think this debate is over.

All the Bush haters should find something else to complain about now. I think he's done a damn good job providing relief funds here.

Rekna

I don't want to get in on this argument but before people start saying "I told you so" and such on the new 350 million figure realize that without the presure of these people complaining the figure would have never been bumped up.

madp

All due respect, Rekna, that is an unsubstantiated and dubious assumption. Since when has the Bush administration shown any sensitivity to what the world media thinks of them?

I believe that once the scope of the disaster was understood, that more than anything resulted in the substantial increase. If "shame" had anything to do with it, I would argue that it is the shame of the world governments for sitting on their hands when 500,000 people were murdered with machetes in one month in Rwanda 10 years ago that has made them more responsive to catastrophe's in the present (especially if they don't involve any military action).

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why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

Rekna

Ohh so should we assume if no one had said a thing we wouldn't be giving just the 35 million? That Bush would have quickly decided ohh they need more, lets give them 10 times as much?

Strange Famous

Jesus, cant people on BOTH sides just stop point scoring and try and just help, or not if they dont want to or they cant, but just be glad for everything we can do, and try to do as much as we can? The comments of some low level civil servant are not evidence of a great UN conspiracy against America, and we should understand that America has and is giving more than any other nation, because in the world at the moment they are the most powerful nation. Do we need to scroll through atrocity photo's to find a picture of Sri Lankan wearing a Bin Laden shirt? What is the intention? What is the purpose of this?

At the risk of repeating myself, a stagering amount of lives have been destroyed in a few minutes of disaster, this is the worst disaster of many of our lifetimes, the loss of life is incredible, and is growing at a terrifying rate, and we as people and nations can help and gave save lives

My wish is that all of us who do care and do want to help, could guide ourselves to doing what we can, giving what we can, being activists in our own community to drum up as much as help as we can do.... to at such a moment still to see this is a place to be attacking other nations for not doing as much as you are doing is just wrong, this is not the time.

Please, just do what you can, and focus your energies on your own community, because each of us holds in our power the ability to save lives.

And you can call me a name for not doing enough, for not tightening my belt more to give more...

And you can call me a name for only giving to charity when there is a great disaster, when people need help all the time

If everyone just gave something, a few bucks, whatever figure they wouldnt even miss... it WOULD make a difference, it would save countless lives... and everyone must make their own choice, and everyone should judge only themselves.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

madp

Good news and bad news:

First the bad news: the death toll is approaching 150,000

The good news: worldwide aid contributions have now topped $1 billion !!!!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...1503&ncid=2337

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why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

madp

No, I think Bush pledged $35mil when the death toll was projected at 15,000, and has now increased it to $350mil as the death toll has increased by almost tenfold.

But it's really of no consequence. The important thing is that Asia gets the resources they need, politics aside.

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why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

sob

In spite of your failure to specify whether you consider Rotary to be an illegitimate organization, or whether you contend that it does not maintain an overhead less than 90%, I'll respond. I won't even quote your comment about checking facts.

Their work is funded to a great extent by member donations. Admittedly, fundraisers such as golf/bowling tournaments and pancake breakfasts incur an overhead that must be paid.

However, when I simply write a check, 100% of it goes to whom I intend.

Edit: I misspoke. If I appy for a grant for a charitable project, and it is approved, Rotary International will multiply my donation by a factor of 16.

Yes, I mean $1,000 -----------> $16,000

For more information:

Link

Rotarians have distributed Polio vaccine all over the world, by boat, camel, and dogsled, among other means. There's not enough space on this website to detail all of their humanitarian projects.

This economically sound system is why I support voluntary charitable contributions (already underway by RI for tsunami victims) as opposed to government extortion.

All of your "moderated" posts send the message to me that you disagree with my philosophy. At least, as long as the government takes everyone ELSE's money, and leaves yours alone. I find this hypocritical.

Figures. The point is that the US continues to donate money for aid, even to people who hate us. We are by far the most generous nation in the history of the world, and we still (back to the point of the thread) get dumped on, particularly by the UN.

To my knowledge, a thread originated in the last two days is the only positive thing Mr Mephisto has ever said about the US. I can't recall ANYTHING positive you, Stompy, or several others have ever posted about the country that's subsidizing your education.

By the way, in spite of your accusation in another thread, I have never reported you to a moderator. It must have been another of your fans.


And your point is...?

smooth

actually, I think you read my statement about operating under a 90% overhead as saying that no legitimate organization operates below such an overhead--as in, you thought I was stating that all of them operate at 90% or above.

I was responding to what you claimed to Mephisto regarding liberal knee-jerk reactions about giving money to places that operate with a 90% overhead.

Read in context, I was stating that no legitimate organization is going to have an overhead cost of 90%+. They aren't going to operate with such a high overhead, or under such a large umbrella of costs.

Anyone who is concerned about where there money is going can contact the agency. If it's legitimate, it will tell you what its overhead costs are.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

daswig

That's an excellent question...especially when you consider how popular we are with some in the region. I offer for your perusal the following: http://editorial.gettyimages.com/sou...96117&c%20di=0

We should be shooting people who wear pro-OBL t-shirts in the head, not sending them disaster relief.

On edit: dang, read the rest of the thread through, and now see that SOB had already shown the gettyphoto.

If individuals want to send money for disaster relief, that's A-OK by me. But it's not our government's job to give our tax money to foreigners overseas who already hate us, REGARDLESS of how much Democrats say it is.

sprocket

Sob and Daswig cmon now.. I agree with a good bit of what you say on this forum, but its compeletly rediculous to make a big deal about this picture. This is one person in a country of OVER A BILLION. Are you seriously going to contend that we shouldnt send aid to the country because there is one man in a photo wearing an osama shirt?

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Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Willravel

I agree with some of Osama's politics (certianally not his methods, of course), should I also be SHOT (i.e. murdered in cold blood)?

Or maybe we should consider the larger good? Maybe these people who had little warning and have been massacred by nature need our help? Perhaps, as the owners of a great deal of the world wealth, we have a responsibility (not as Americans or Republicans or any such shallow label, but as HUMANS) to help those who need help?

My money is going straight to 12 families in Sri Lanka who are in desperate need. You might consider thinking about those who don't know or care about your politics who died needlessly and who might die needlessly because of bad water or because their home was destroyed.

EDIT:
I. FORUM RULES
D. No baiting (trolling) - Posting comments with the intention to draw the ire of your fellow board members is just as bad as insulting them directly.
II. FORUM GUIDELINES
A. Healthy debate is encouraged. The TFP prides itself on being a wonderful place to hold a civilized conversation. Please do your part to keep it up to code.

Just a friendly reminder.

Rdr4evr

By that logic, we should also shoot all Bush supporters in the head as well. Both sides justify their murderous actions by putting it in Gods name.

jorgelito

Wait, how do we know it's a pro-Osama shirt? For all we know, it could say something like "Fuck Osama" at the bottom. It's covered up by the shirt tied around his waist, or on the back.

I've seen some t-shirts with Bush's picure on it, and some negative statement like "international terrorist" on the bottom or back even.

Also, there are a lot of people in our country (USA) that wear freakin' Che Guevera t-shirts and Abu Jamal t-shirts, especially on college campuses! Probably more than that 'one' guy wearing an Osama t-shirt. Those guys were terrorists too and commies!

highthief

Because one guy wearing a T-shirt is representative of a dozen different countries representing 5 major religions speaking 10s of languages? This leap of "logic" is astounding...

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

highthief

At any rate, international aid now at the 2.5 billion mark, I understand, with Japan heading the pack at $500 million. I'm very cool with the big nations trying to outdo each other with respect to who can give more help. That's a great contest...

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

jimbob

Does anyone have a theory for why Norway is so far ahead of the pack, even compared to other nordic countires, and especially in private giving? And perhaps the US is low on the list because it is more inward looking?

jimbob

Links to recent French/German bitchiness please?

oktjabr

I'm not sure but I have a feeling that it is because Norway is exceedingly rich because it is an oil producer, much richer than any other nordic country. Though everything is also very expensive in Norway...

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-G.O.

Mephisto2

What are you talking about?

The list was posted because you, yes YOU asked.

It's farcical that you now respond as you did above, when all I did was answer your question.

Well, good for you.

Huh?

Medicene Sans Frontier keep up to 90% of their donations? (Well, these guys must be bad. They have French words in their name!!!)

The American Red Cross keep up to 90% of the their donations?
World Vision? Oxfam?

References please. I'm all ears.

Wow, you should get a job with the US government. "It doesn't work"... you must be able to see something that the rest of the world doesn't!

Oh, and by the way, when did I suggest that the US government gather loads of money and distribute it willy-nilly? I didn't. You're barking up the wrong tree here mate. Or boxing with shadows.

All I said was that the US was not mentioned by UN Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs Jan Egeland when he talked about the lamentable reduction in international aid.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Members of the US Congress themselves complained about the original $35M donation.

Hijacking the thread? Well, that's a bit rich (if you'll pardon the pun). You asked me a question. I answered it. Now I'm hijacking the thread. Hmmm...

With regards to the comments about Jan Egeland, I can assure you that I didn't miss his name. And if you are accusing me of "skipping over the part that mentions the huge amount of aid the US is mobilizing" then it is YOU who is shielding their eyes. Check out this thread for example: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=79895

I've actually gone out of my way to praise America for its actions since the magnitude of this disaster became clear.

Sheesh...


Guess what? I can find lots of pictures of Americans with Hitler tee-shirts on. And pictures of Americans posing beside murdered blacks. And pictures of American soldiers standing beside abused prisoners.

One final note:

Shall I post these too?



Mr Mephisto

sob

The next time you have this much trouble comprehending a post, it would be better to PM the author.

With constructive comments like this, it should not be a surprise that I choose not to respond further.

tecoyah

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