Aid to Tsunami victims - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sob · 12-29-2004, 12:40 AM

Here's a real shocker. Someone in the UN thinks we're "stingy." Never mind that our initial offer of aid is $35 million, and the entire European Union has only offered $9 million, as of today.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but the number of people who feel entitled to the American taxpayer's money is simply astounding.

link

Quote:

Stingy Americans? U.N. official's comment hits nerve
Tuesday, December 28, 2004 Posted: 9:38 PM EST (0238 GMT)

U.N. emergency relief coordinator Jan Egeland says his comment wasn't aimed at a particular country.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A suggestion by a U.N. official that the world's richest nations were "stingy" irritated the Bush administration, especially when U.S. aid for Asia's earthquake is expected to eventually rise from the millions to more than $1 billion.

The comment reopened the question of how to measure American generosity. The answer ultimately depends on the measuring stick.

The U.S. government is always near the top in total humanitarian aid dollars -- even before private donations are counted -- but it finishes near the bottom of the list of rich countries when that money is compared to gross national product.

The chief of U.S. Agency for International Development, which distributes foreign aid, was quick to point out Tuesday that foreign assistance for development and emergency relief rose from $10 billion in President Clinton's last year to $24 billion under President Bush in 2003.

Secretary of State Colin Powell said assistance for this week's earthquake and tsunamis alone will eventually exceed $1 billion.

"The notion that the United States is not generous is simply not true, factually," USAID chief Andrew Natsios told The Associated Press in an interview. "We've had one of the largest increases of any country in the world."

But even Natsios acknowledged Tuesday that the initial $35 million aid package the administration has crafted for earthquake and tsunami victims has completely drained his agency's emergency relief fund, which already provides assistance from Darfur to Iraq.

That means his agency will need to ask Congress or the White House for more money.

"We just spent it," Natsios said. "We'll be talking to the (White House) budget office ... what to do at this point."

Natsios said the Pentagon also is spending tens of millions to mobilize an additional relief operation, with C-130 transport planes winging their way from Dubai to Indonesia with pre-stocked supplies of tents, blankets, food and water bags.

As of early Tuesday, dozens of countries and relief groups had pledged $81 million in help for South and East Asia, said the Geneva-based U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

The United States uses the most common measure of the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group of 30 rich nations that counts development aid.

By that measure, the United States spent almost $15.8 billion for "official development assistance" to developing countries in 2003. Next closest was Japan, at $8.9 billion.

That doesn't include billions more the United States spends in other areas such as AIDS and HIV programs and other U.N. assistance.

Measured another way, as a percentage of gross national product, the OECD's figures on development aid show that as of April, none of the world's richest countries donated even 1 percent of its gross national product. Norway was highest, at 0.92 percent; the United States was last, at 0.14 percent.

Such figures were what prompted Jan Egeland -- the United Nations' emergency relief coordinator and former head of the Norwegian Red Cross -- to challenge the giving of rich nations.

"We were more generous when we were less rich, many of the rich countries," Egeland said. "And it is beyond me, why are we so stingy, really.... Even Christmas time should remind many Western countries at least how rich we have become."

Egeland told reporters Tuesday his complaint wasn't directed at any nation in particular.

But Powell clearly took umbrage while making the rounds of the morning television news shows. He said he wished Egeland hadn't made the comment and reaffirmed that the Bush administration will follow up with assistance that could stretch into the billions of dollars.

The White House also defended the U.S. record of giving.

"We outmatch the contributions of other nations combined; we'll continue to do so," Bush spokesman Trent Duffy told reporters in Crawford, Texas, where the president is spending a post-Christmas vacation at his ranch.

Natsios said the Paris organization's figures overlook a key factor -- the billions more Americans give each year in private donations.

Americans last year gave an estimated $241 billion to charitable causes -- domestic and foreign -- according to a study by Giving USA Foundation. That's up from $234 billion in 2002. The foundation did not break down how much was for domestic causes and how much for foreign.

"That's a European standard, this percentage that's used," Natsios said. "The United States, for 40 years, has never accepted these standards that it should be based on the gross national product. We base it on the actual dollars that we spent."

"The reason is that our gross national product is so enormous. And our growth rates are so much higher than the other wealthy nations."

Manx · 12-29-2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

The U.S. government is always near the top in total humanitarian aid dollars -- even before private donations are counted -- but it finishes near the bottom of the list of rich countries when that money is compared to gross national product.

That about sums it up.

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 06:32 AM

This bugs the shit out of me.

First of all the comment was not made about America, but about "rich countries". As such, it's entirely true.

Secondly, the comment was not made about aid to the tsunami victims, but about international aid in general.

Thirdly, the US originally donated only US$15M. This was later increased to US$35M. Australia, a very much smaller country has also donated US$35M. Japan, another smaller country, has donated US$30M.

Even the US media has questioned the paltry sums (so far) pledged by the US government.

Personally, I don't want to degenerate into this sickening kind of cheap political nonesense. Keep this to subjects more appropriate. My anger makes me feel that only anti-UN, isolationist, neo-con flunkies could use this as a pathetic anti-UN rant; and this thread has only confirmed that bitter assumption.

Stop using this tragedy as a cheap political mop. If you want to save lives, rather than try to score political points, please donate to the many laudable US charities that are rushing to help the victims of this disaster.

Mr Mephisto

boatin · 12-29-2004, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

This bugs the shit out of me.

First of all the comment was not made about America, but about "rich countries". As such, it's entirely true.

Secondly, the comment was not made about aid to the tsunami victims, but about international aid in general.

Thirdly, the US originally donated only US$15M. This was later increased to US$35M. Australia, a very much smaller country has also donated US$35M. Japan, another smaller country, has donated US$30M.

Even the US media has questioned the paltry sums (so far) pledged by the US government.

Personally, I don't want to degenerate into this sickening kind of cheap political nonesense. Keep this to subjects more appropriate. My anger makes me feel that only anti-UN, isolationist, neo-con flunkies could use this as a pathetic anti-UN rant; and this thread has only confirmed that bitter assumption.

Stop using this tragedy as a cheap political mop. If you want to save lives, rather than try to score political points, please donate to the many laudable US charities that are rushing to help the victims of this disaster.

Mr Mephisto

What he said better than I ever could have. Thx Mephisto.

ShaniFaye · 12-29-2004, 08:06 AM

same thing I posted in the 8.9 thread

Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A suggestion by a U.N. official that the world's richest nations were "stingy" irritated the Bush administration, especially when U.S. aid for Asia's earthquake is expected to eventually rise from the millions to more than $1 billion.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-29-2004, 09:34 AM

The USaid organization is stretched thin enough as it is with there budget which as noted already active in many countries such as Iraq and Sudan.

And this was a shot at the US, people in Europe and such have a notion despite our record growth in aid over the years handed out, an additional 7 billion in both domestic and foreign (public and private), 234 to 241 billion dollars; that because we don't do it by our GDP, which by the way dwarves all other countries on the planet, that we are stingy. If you look at it our overall purchasing parity is more then England, France, Japan, and Germany combined, with about 2 trillion to spare.

Seaver · 12-29-2004, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Keep this to subjects more appropriate. My anger makes me feel that only anti-UN, isolationist, neo-con flunkies could use this as a pathetic anti-UN rant; and this thread has only confirmed that bitter assumption.

I despise the UN, but I'm no "neo-con flunkie" or an isolationist, so please cool it down.

I despise the UN because of the corruption, not because I'm one of those ultra-patriots or anything. Clear the corruption and I'd support it, AKA punish severely those involved, and kick them out.

martinguerre · 12-29-2004, 10:40 AM

35 mill is less than the cost of the inauguration. sorry...but that doesn't really seem to cut it. yes, "eventual 1 billion" might be more like it. But i don't see how things are going to get done on imaginary money. if bush was hustling for the money, going to congress and making shit happen, i wouldn't bitch a bit. 35 now, the rest is on the way...that's reasonable. but right now, its a deafening silence, and i doubt that a significant amount of aid is going to get there in time to avert secondary casualties, deaths from disease and malnutrition.

mojo...what's so revolutionary about paying as percent of what we have? Luke 21:1-4 might have something to say. we talk very big, but we are giving a sum that barely even will be missed.

Seaver · 12-29-2004, 10:43 AM

Could it be that we're in two wars at once already?

France/Germany arent doing much other than finding any reason to bitch about us... what's their excuse?

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-29-2004, 10:46 AM

Martin, proverbs aside, we live in the material world, one where our resources are depleted

Quote:

"The notion that the United States is not generous is simply not true, factually," USAID chief Andrew Natsios told The Associated Press in an interview. "We've had one of the largest increases of any country in the world."

But even Natsios acknowledged Tuesday that the initial $35 million aid package the administration has crafted for earthquake and tsunami victims has completely drained his agency's emergency relief fund, which already provides assistance from Darfur to Iraq.

That means his agency will need to ask Congress or the White House for more money.

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

And this was a shot at the US....

No it wasn't.

It was an off the cuff comment about rich countries.

Or do you have such an inflated view of yourself and your country that any comment about aid (or stinginess for that matter) automatically means people are talking about America?

It almost sounds like someone touched an open nerve.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I despise the UN, but I'm no "neo-con flunkie" or an isolationist, so please cool it down.

I despise the UN because of the corruption, not because I'm one of those ultra-patriots or anything. Clear the corruption and I'd support it, AKA punish severely those involved, and kick them out.

I don't need to cool it down.

A TOTAL MISREPRESENTATION of the truth around the comment is already being used by neo-cons and isolationists to bash the UN.

One guy made one comment (which I tend to agree with, by the way) when asked about international aid in general.

All of a sudden you have Bush and Co jumping up and down, and the right-wing US media wailing about how the UN is criticising America again.

Sheesh...

Mr Mephisto

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-29-2004, 01:07 PM

Well they don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to embracing America now do they?

Rdr4evr · 12-29-2004, 01:18 PM

35 mil? What is that, like 2 days war in Iraq? Too bad we can spend billions upon billions destroying countries, but can only spare a few mil to help them.

Either way, some money is better than no money and the rest of the countries are not being any less "stingy".

sprocket · 12-29-2004, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

35 mil? What is that, like 2 days war in Iraq? Too bad we can spend billions upon billions destroying countries, but can only spare a few mil to help them.

Either way, some money is better than no money and the rest of the countries are not being any less "stingy".

I agree, but according to the article, the $35 million isnt the end of it. We will be giving more eventually after getting approval from congress.

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 01:56 PM

Great. So why the big deal?

You guys are making a drama out of nothing but one official's off the cuff comment.

As I said, $35M is not that much at all. Especially compared to that given by other countries. But it's probably just the tip of the iceberg and the US will step up to the plate and help more. Therefore, so let's just forget this useless "outrage" and move on.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 02:11 PM

How to help:

Quote:

Asian disaster: How to help

Aid is already arriving in areas affected by Sunday's earthquake

Global aid organisations have launched urgent appeals for donations to help survivors of Sunday's Indian Ocean earthquake disaster.

Nearly 80,000 people are confirmed killed by the waves and millions more are homeless.

Many governments and organisations - including the US, Canada, Australia, the EU and the UN - are sending aid.

The UN has warned that supplies are urgently needed to support the survivors and to try and prevent disease which, it says, could double the death toll.

The Disasters Emergency Committee - www.dec.org.uk - is an umbrella group of UK aid organisations - including ActionAid, British Red Cross, Oxfam - working to provide clean water, food and shelter to thousands.

The United Nations World Food Programme - www.wfp.org - is seeking donations to feed victims of the earthquake.

Medecins Sans Frontieres - www.msf.org - is sending aid workers to the region, focusing on medical care for survivors and displaced people after the rescue operations.

Oxfam - www.oxfam.org.uk - is providing emergency supplies, including water tanks, pumps, taps and temporary toilets for families left homeless by the floods. The charity raised £600,000 in the three days after the disaster, including £200,000 on Tuesday - the most it has raised in one day.

Islamic Relief - www.islamic-relief.com - has also launched an appeal to provide medical supplies, tents and sanitation facilities for those affected.

The United Nations Children's Fund, Unicef - www.unicef.org - is working to meet the "urgent needs of hundreds of thousands of people" affected by the tsunami disaster.

Save the Children - www.savethechildren.org.uk - has already flown a plane out to Sri Lanka carrying plastic sheeting for temporary shelter, tents to run children's services from, and essentials such as clothing and cooking utensils.

Anti-poverty organisation Care International - www.care.org - has already provided food for thousands of affected people in Sri Lanka.

Cafod, the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development - www.cafod.org.uk - is working with partners across Asia to provide shelter, food aid and medical assistance, and assessing what further relief is needed.

The Islamic Aid Emergency Relief Fund - www.islamicaid.org.uk - aims to provide immediate relief and long-term support to people in the affected areas.

Another Islamic charity, Muslim Hands - www.muslimhands.org- is collecting money and sending volunteers to help in Indonesia and Malaysia.

UK residents can donate via the British Red Cross - www.redcross.org.uk - which has launched an appeal to fund supplies including blankets and cooking utensils.

Medair - www.medair.org - is providing emergency support to agencies with a long term presence in Sri Lanka and its medical experts are assessing the likelihood of malaria and diarrhoea.

World Vision - www.worldvision.org.uk - has also launched an appeal and has already delivered relief goods to thousands.

Christian Aid - www.christianaid.org.uk - has already allocated £250,000 from its emergency fund to help the victims of this disaster but says more money is needed.

Christian charity Tearfund - www.tearfund.org - and its partners in Sri Lanka and India are helping devastated fishing communities and coastal villages get back on their feet.

Concern - www.concern.net - is working with local partners to meet the needs of families in the devastated coastal villages of Tamil Nadu, the worst affected state in India.

The International Rescue Committee - www.theirc.org - is providing emergency supplies and materials to "people most affected by the crisis".

The Salvation Army - www.salvationarmy.org.uk has local teams working in a number of affected areas and is sending a team from its international headquarters on Wednesday evening.

Muslim Aid - www.muslimaid.org - has already donated £100,000 towards the purchase of food, clothing and medicine in the region but wants to raise more.

Asia Quake Relief Appeal UK, a UK-based Sri Lankan organisation, is also raising money and can be emailed at asia-quakerelief@europe.com

You can donate to all the campaigns via their websites.

Care of the BBC.

Mr Mephisto

Rdr4evr · 12-29-2004, 02:53 PM

Apparently India doesn't want any foreign aid as they have "adequate resources". As a matter of fact, they said they have mounted relief for Sri Lanka and Maldives.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ndiaaidforeign

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 03:12 PM

That's either completely fucked, or a nice gesture on India's part; the aid may be better used in other countries.

I can't make up my mind which.

India is typically considered a poor country, but it has a huge military and (unfortunately) quite a bit of experience in dealing with natural disasters. On the other hand, any help should be accepted.

It will be interesting to see what happens or if this "unnamed source" is accurate.

Thanks for the link

Mr Mephisto

Fohur2 · 12-29-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

France/Germany arent doing much other than finding any reason to bitch about us... what's their excuse?

France France has sent a plane with 100 rescue personnel, as well as 800 kg (1,750 lb) of medical supplies. It has also allocated 15 million EUR in aid.

Germany The German government has initially allocated EUR 20 million (USD 26 million) for immediate aid. According to a press release from the German secretary of foreign affairs, units of the governmental technical relief organisation (THW) are going to be sent to Thailand and Sri Lanka for rescue purposes, together with drinking water purification equipment to be instaled in Galle (Sri Lanka). Additional medical help is sent to Phuket this afternoon, including one of the MedEvac Airbuses - which are capable to fly out up to 30 intensive care patient out of the region to specialized hospital - of the German Air Force. The german chancellor has proposed to release the most affected countries from their debts.

Wikipedia

So,35milion for two countries with 1/3 the GDP.I wish they'd stop bitching

Seaver · 12-29-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

So,35milion for two countries with 1/3 the GDP.I wish they'd stop bitching

Really, considering we give more than that every year to those countries to keep their economies afloat...

Mephisto2 · 12-29-2004, 04:51 PM

Yeah, you're right seaver.

Fuck 'em. We keep their economies afloat so they can cripple their economies by repaying debt and also act as sponges for US trade.

Why should you spend an extra cent on helping those people? Of course, you could perhaps sell them food and medicenes? I'm sure Haliburton et al could come up with a nice business plan for the affected countries...

/sarcasm

Mr Mephisto

blitz.fenix · 12-29-2004, 05:38 PM

Maybe while on the topic of providing aid we provide aid the those children that work in sweatshops everyday. Children always seem to be left out. The rush seems to be lets get everything back to order so we can abuse them again!

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-29-2004, 05:49 PM

Kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia Derrick.

DEI37 · 12-29-2004, 05:50 PM

I'm still trying to figure out what we're doing aiding countries that have natural disasters like this. We have to help ourselves when we have one, and we have enough problems of our own. I'll shut up now before I get myself in trouble.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-29-2004, 05:52 PM

I thought the government was pretty good about giving aid to Florida, oh wait that's right it's only because it was an election year and in a key swing state...

mac03 · 12-29-2004, 06:02 PM

The $$$ amoutn doesn't include the people we send, nor does it include personal and organiztions contributions. That is strictly money from the US gov't "help other nations account" to the nations affected. It will rise much higher than that and will not include the slararies of the gov't personnel we send over to help. Nor will it include the $$$ we will contribute over the next few years/decades to help rebuild their economy.

Amazing how everything the US does or doesn't do pisses off the rest of the world.

Tracybrian · 12-29-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz.fenix

Maybe while on the topic of providing aid we provide aid the those children that work in sweatshops everyday. Children always seem to be left out. The rush seems to be lets get everything back to order so we can abuse them again!

Yes I agree we should get everything back in order or prices at walmart are going to be rising.

Just kidding, always it seems that when tragic events happen people want something or someone to blame. So we should all just shut up and clean up the mess and make sure that something like this never happens again because the way I understand it most of the people could have been saved if there was a warning system in place. The people have no one to blame except there own goverments. And yes I think it is our job as the leading power player in the world to clean it up. And we should make sure that this dosent happen again by forceing the countrys to set up a advanced warning system.

almostaugust · 12-29-2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

I'm still trying to figure out what we're doing aiding countries that have natural disasters like this. We have to help ourselves when we have one, and we have enough problems of our own. I'll shut up now before I get myself in trouble.

Are you serious. More than 80,000 people are dead. This is one of the greatest tradgedies of modern times. Im sick of the news/media currency that is given to developing nations and the attitude that brown lives dont matter.
'...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...'

Seaver · 12-29-2004, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Yeah, you're right seaver.

Fuck 'em. We keep their economies afloat so they can cripple their economies by repaying debt and also act as sponges for US trade.

Why should you spend an extra cent on helping those people? Of course, you could perhaps sell them food and medicenes? I'm sure Haliburton et al could come up with a nice business plan for the affected countries...

I was talking about first world nations like Germany and France. They REALLY need our help... maybe if we took our foreign aid from them and used it on nations that really need it it'd give some substance to their incessent bitching about our decisions.

Seaver · 12-29-2004, 09:31 PM

Wow, just turned on the news.... over 80,000 now expected dead....

Yeah I agree we need to pump a LOT more money to this area to help them out. When I posted these it was about 3-4,000 from what I saw. 80,000 is just horrid death rate.

sob · 12-29-2004, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Great. So why the big deal?

You guys are making a drama out of nothing but one official's off the cuff comment.

As I said, $35M is not that much at all. Especially compared to that given by other countries. But it's probably just the tip of the iceberg and the US will step up to the plate and help more. Therefore, so let's just forget this useless "outrage" and move on.

Mr Mephisto

Yeah, let's move on.

And the next time there's another UN vote to screw up our economy, let's just take it up the ass.

Everybody knows we've got unlimited money. By the way, how much aid has your country sent?

Pacifier · 12-30-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I was talking about first world nations like Germany and France. They REALLY need our help... maybe if we took our foreign aid from them and used it on nations that really need it it'd give some substance to their incessent bitching about our decisions.

USA giving currently aid to germany? source?
Or are you talking about the aid you gave us (marshall plan)?

Mephisto2 · 12-30-2004, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob

Yeah, let's move on.

And the next time there's another UN vote to screw up our economy, let's just take it up the ass.

Everybody knows we've got unlimited money. By the way, how much aid has your country sent?

You know, despite over two years on TFP, I can't actually fucking believe this post.

sob, do you think this is a competition or something? By asking me how much "my country" has donated, I presume you're trying to take some self-defined and delusional high ground (or something).

I live in Australia.

Donations to Australian Red Cross alone total more than $10 million. Australians have donated $4 million to World Vision, Oxfam has taken more than $2.5 million, while CARE Australia and UNICEF have raised more than $1 million each.

The Australian government has donated $35M. That's about US$20M. And the Australian economy is vastly smaller than yours.

I'm Irish.

With regards to Ireland alone the following is a summary of current donations as of midday yesterday.

Trócaire: Has raised €2.3 million at Mass collections in four dioceses. Has already donated €500,000 to its Caritas partners in India and Sri Lanka.

Concern: Has donated €250,000, while a three-person team visited Tamil Nadu, one of India's worst-hit states, on Monday and Tuesday to make an initial assessment.

A local partner has distributed 4,000 emergency kits in Chennai, capital of Tamil Nadu, with another 16,000 to be made available.

GOAL: Had received €200,000 in donations by yesterday. Has team working in Nagabattinum, capital of Tamil Nadu, where it hopes to be feeding 10,000 families by the weekend. A GOAL team left Dublin yesterday for Colombo in Sri Lanka.

Irish Red Cross: Received €50,000 on Tuesday alone. Immediate focus on Sri Lanka. The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies has begun a worldwide appeal for €32.3 million.

The Irish government has donated €2M (which I believe is far too little).

Are you happy now that I've given you figures?

Does it make you feel superior?

Just a quick question for you sob.

How much have YOU, personally donated?

Get off your high horse and try to help. The current death toll is around 120,000 people. Think about that figure.

120,000 dead men, women and children.

One hundred and twenty thousand...

Mr Mephisto

Seaver · 12-30-2004, 10:22 AM

Couldn't agree with you more Mephisto. When the figures stood at 4,000 I was ticked at the statement. But 80,000-120,000...

Some of the Indonesian islands dont exist currently. The average height of most Indonesian islands is 3-6 feet above sea level, the tsunami was said to be 20-30 feet high...

Whoever's left there are going to need LOTS of help.

Strange Famous · 12-30-2004, 10:34 AM

Even faced with a human tragedy of almost unimaginable proportions, it seems some people are more concerned with jingoistic/nationalistic arguments about who is giving the most and who should be... it makes me sad.

What does it matter who gives what, what matters is that the help arrives.

This is not the time to argue about what France has done, or why America is allowed to violate international clean air laws, or who Russia has sold arms to, or whether the EU constitution is corrupt, or the war against Iraq... if people and nations cannot pull together now, when 100,000 lives hang in the balance and may be saved or lost depending on how quickly and surely we act... then can they ever? If people cannot give aid to a tragedy like this without having to use it to score points "I gave more than you, you are stingy, etc etc etc" then there is no hope I see in the human race as it today.

I have also heard reports that an Israeli field hospital was refused and turned away from Sri Lanka - although supplies were accepted from Israel. So sad, what difference could those few doctors have made ... some, how many lives wheld in the balance will be lost due to this racist decision (if it is true)... some... may they always know and always bear with them the blood that is on their hands.

12-30-2004, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I was talking about first world nations like Germany and France. They REALLY need our help... maybe if we took our foreign aid from them and used it on nations that really need it it'd give some substance to their incessent bitching about our decisions.

The US props-up the German and French economies? I've never heard this before, where did you get this information?

cataklysm · 12-30-2004, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I have also heard reports that an Israeli field hospital was refused and turned away from Sri Lanka - although supplies were accepted from Israel. So sad, what difference could those few doctors have made ... some, how many lives wheld in the balance will be lost due to this racist decision (if it is true)... some... may they always know and always bear with them the blood that is on their hands.

A 150-member Israeli aid delegation canceled its mission to Sri Lanka on Tuesday, after the country - one of the hardest hit in the Asian tsunami disaster - apparently refused to accept the Israeli team, Israel Defense Forces officials said.

However, the Sri Lankan president's military secretary sent a notice to the country's foreign and defense ministries Tuesday expressing support for the arrival of a 50-member Israeli delegation.

"We are not opposed to a plane loaded with medical supplies, food and blankets that will be accompanied by a medical team comprised of 50 IDF people, as the Israeli Foreign Ministry requested in a letter," the military secretary said in the notice.

In any case, Israel is sending supplies at Sri Lanka's request, including 10,000 blankets contributed by the IDF, tents, nylon sheeting and water containers. The IDF Home Front Command is organizing aid preparations.

The Israeli humanitarian organization Latet ("To Give") is sending a separate aid package Tuesday. It is filling a jumbo jet with 18 tons of supplies worth $50,000, at Sri Lanka's request. The group is considering sending additional aid shortly.

Sri Lanka said on Tuesday the death toll from the tsunami had risen to about 18,700 people, including at least 200 foreign tourists. Sri Lankan military spokesman Daya Ratnayake said more than 1.5 million people had been displaced from their homes - around 7.5 percent of Sri Lanka's population.

About 37,000 people were confirmed dead Tuesday in the wake of the tsunami that slammed into coasts from India to Indonesia two days before, with some estimates nearly doubling that toll.

The aid delegation that had been set to depart for Sri Lanka on Tuesday included medical teams and representatives of the IDF and Defense Ministry, who were planning to provide humanitarian assistance and participate in search-and-rescue operations.

The delegation was planning to assemble a medical facility comprised of specialist doctors, and set up emergency, internal medicine and pediatric departments, as well as laboratory and X-ray facilities in the southern part of Sri Lanka.

A far smaller team landed in Sri Lanka on Monday night, headed by four doctors from Hadassah University Hospital, Ein Karem in Jerusalem. The team was carrying medicine and baby food.

The doctors - who specialize in rescue operations, trauma and pediatrics - were also checking the viability of setting up a field hospital in the area, and advised Israel to send a larger team, such as the one Sri Lanka rejected.

"We will advise Israel and the Foreign Ministry... to send something more massive," said Dr. Avi Rivkind, director of Hadassah's trauma unit. "We will try to use our... broad experience in dealing with terror attacks and rescuing masses to help in this disaster as well."

Israel is weighing the option of sending similar delegations to Thailand, where more than 1,400 people have died, and India, where more than 9,500 people have died or are feared dead, but has yet to make a final decision on the matter.

Bill O'Rights · 12-30-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Even faced with a human tragedy of almost unimaginable proportions, it seems some people are more concerned with jingoistic/nationalistic arguments about who is giving the most and who should be... it makes me sad.

What does it matter who gives what, what matters is that the help arrives.

Strange Famous...I couldn't have said it better myself.

Willravel · 12-30-2004, 11:42 AM

Embassies in Thailand- Contact numbers

Australia 66(0) 2 287 2680
Belgium 66 (0) 2 679 5454
Canada 66 (0) 2 636 0540
China 66 (0) 2 245 7032-3 or 2 245 7036
Denmark 66 (0) 2 213 2021-5 or 245 7036
Finland 66 (0) 2 256 9306-9
France 66 (06) 2 266 8250-6 or 2 266 0550-3
Germany 66 (0) 2 287 9000
Ireland 66 (0) 638 0303
Israel 66 (0) 2 260 4854-9
Italy 66 (0) 2 285 4090-3
Japan 66 (0) 2 252 6151-9
South Korea 66 (0) 2 247 7537
Netherlands 66 (0) 2 254 7701-5
New Zealand 66 (0) 2 254 2530
Norway 66 (0) 2 261 0230-5
Russia 66 (0) 2 234 9824
Singapore 66 (0) 2 286 1434
South Korea 66 (0) 2 247 7537
Spain 66 (0) 2 252 6112
Sweden 66 (0) 2 263 7211 or 2 263 7239
Switzerland 66 (0) 2 253 0156
Taiwan 66 (0) 2 670 0200-1
United Kingdom 66 (0) 2 3058333
USA 66 (0) 2 205 4000

12-29-2004, 06:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	This bugs the shit out of me. First of all the comment was not made about America, but about "rich countries". As such, it's entirely true. Secondly, the comment was not made about aid to the tsunami victims, but about international aid in general. Thirdly, the US originally donated only US$15M. This was later increased to US$35M. Australia, a very much smaller country has also donated US$35M. Japan, another smaller country, has donated US$30M. Even the US media has questioned the paltry sums (so far) pledged by the US government. Personally, I don't want to degenerate into this sickening kind of cheap political nonesense. Keep this to subjects more appropriate. My anger makes me feel that only anti-UN, isolationist, neo-con flunkies could use this as a pathetic anti-UN rant; and this thread has only confirmed that bitter assumption. Stop using this tragedy as a cheap political mop. If you want to save lives, rather than try to score political points, please donate to the many laudable US charities that are rushing to help the victims of this disaster. Mr Mephisto Last edited by Mephisto2; 12-29-2004 at 06:50 AM..

12-29-2004, 09:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The USaid organization is stretched thin enough as it is with there budget which as noted already active in many countries such as Iraq and Sudan. And this was a shot at the US, people in Europe and such have a notion despite our record growth in aid over the years handed out, an additional 7 billion in both domestic and foreign (public and private), 234 to 241 billion dollars; that because we don't do it by our GDP, which by the way dwarves all other countries on the planet, that we are stingy. If you look at it our overall purchasing parity is more then England, France, Japan, and Germany combined, with about 2 trillion to spare. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-29-2004, 10:40 AM	#8 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	35 mill is less than the cost of the inauguration. sorry...but that doesn't really seem to cut it. yes, "eventual 1 billion" might be more like it. But i don't see how things are going to get done on imaginary money. if bush was hustling for the money, going to congress and making shit happen, i wouldn't bitch a bit. 35 now, the rest is on the way...that's reasonable. but right now, its a deafening silence, and i doubt that a significant amount of aid is going to get there in time to avert secondary casualties, deaths from disease and malnutrition. mojo...what's so revolutionary about paying as percent of what we have? Luke 21:1-4 might have something to say. we talk very big, but we are giving a sum that barely even will be missed. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

12-29-2004, 01:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Well they don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to embracing America now do they? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-29-2004, 05:49 PM	#24 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia Derrick. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-29-2004, 10:43 AM	#9 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Could it be that we're in two wars at once already? France/Germany arent doing much other than finding any reason to bitch about us... what's their excuse?

12-29-2004, 01:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	35 mil? What is that, like 2 days war in Iraq? Too bad we can spend billions upon billions destroying countries, but can only spare a few mil to help them. Either way, some money is better than no money and the rest of the countries are not being any less "stingy".

12-29-2004, 01:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Great. So why the big deal? You guys are making a drama out of nothing but one official's off the cuff comment. As I said, $35M is not that much at all. Especially compared to that given by other countries. But it's probably just the tip of the iceberg and the US will step up to the plate and help more. Therefore, so let's just forget this useless "outrage" and move on. Mr Mephisto

12-29-2004, 02:53 PM	#18 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Apparently India doesn't want any foreign aid as they have "adequate resources". As a matter of fact, they said they have mounted relief for Sri Lanka and Maldives. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ndiaaidforeign

12-29-2004, 03:12 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	That's either completely fucked, or a nice gesture on India's part; the aid may be better used in other countries. I can't make up my mind which. India is typically considered a poor country, but it has a huge military and (unfortunately) quite a bit of experience in dealing with natural disasters. On the other hand, any help should be accepted. It will be interesting to see what happens or if this "unnamed source" is accurate. Thanks for the link Mr Mephisto

12-29-2004, 04:51 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Yeah, you're right seaver. Fuck 'em. We keep their economies afloat so they can cripple their economies by repaying debt and also act as sponges for US trade. Why should you spend an extra cent on helping those people? Of course, you could perhaps sell them food and medicenes? I'm sure Haliburton et al could come up with a nice business plan for the affected countries... /sarcasm Mr Mephisto

12-29-2004, 05:38 PM	#23 (permalink)
blitz.fenix Insane Location: Toronto	Maybe while on the topic of providing aid we provide aid the those children that work in sweatshops everyday. Children always seem to be left out. The rush seems to be lets get everything back to order so we can abuse them again!

12-29-2004, 05:50 PM	#25 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	I'm still trying to figure out what we're doing aiding countries that have natural disasters like this. We have to help ourselves when we have one, and we have enough problems of our own. I'll shut up now before I get myself in trouble. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

12-29-2004, 05:52 PM	#26 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I thought the government was pretty good about giving aid to Florida, oh wait that's right it's only because it was an election year and in a key swing state... __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-29-2004, 06:02 PM	#27 (permalink)
mac03 Tilted	The $$$ amoutn doesn't include the people we send, nor does it include personal and organiztions contributions. That is strictly money from the US gov't "help other nations account" to the nations affected. It will rise much higher than that and will not include the slararies of the gov't personnel we send over to help. Nor will it include the $$$ we will contribute over the next few years/decades to help rebuild their economy. Amazing how everything the US does or doesn't do pisses off the rest of the world.

12-29-2004, 09:31 PM	#31 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Wow, just turned on the news.... over 80,000 now expected dead.... Yeah I agree we need to pump a LOT more money to this area to help them out. When I posted these it was about 3-4,000 from what I saw. 80,000 is just horrid death rate.

12-30-2004, 10:22 AM	#35 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Couldn't agree with you more Mephisto. When the figures stood at 4,000 I was ticked at the statement. But 80,000-120,000... Some of the Indonesian islands dont exist currently. The average height of most Indonesian islands is 3-6 feet above sea level, the tsunami was said to be 20-30 feet high... Whoever's left there are going to need LOTS of help.

12-30-2004, 10:34 AM	#36 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Even faced with a human tragedy of almost unimaginable proportions, it seems some people are more concerned with jingoistic/nationalistic arguments about who is giving the most and who should be... it makes me sad. What does it matter who gives what, what matters is that the help arrives. This is not the time to argue about what France has done, or why America is allowed to violate international clean air laws, or who Russia has sold arms to, or whether the EU constitution is corrupt, or the war against Iraq... if people and nations cannot pull together now, when 100,000 lives hang in the balance and may be saved or lost depending on how quickly and surely we act... then can they ever? If people cannot give aid to a tragedy like this without having to use it to score points "I gave more than you, you are stingy, etc etc etc" then there is no hope I see in the human race as it today. I have also heard reports that an Israeli field hospital was refused and turned away from Sri Lanka - although supplies were accepted from Israel. So sad, what difference could those few doctors have made ... some, how many lives wheld in the balance will be lost due to this racist decision (if it is true)... some... may they always know and always bear with them the blood that is on their hands. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-30-2004, 11:42 AM	#40 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Embassies in Thailand- Contact numbers Australia 66(0) 2 287 2680 Belgium 66 (0) 2 679 5454 Canada 66 (0) 2 636 0540 China 66 (0) 2 245 7032-3 or 2 245 7036 Denmark 66 (0) 2 213 2021-5 or 245 7036 Finland 66 (0) 2 256 9306-9 France 66 (06) 2 266 8250-6 or 2 266 0550-3 Germany 66 (0) 2 287 9000 Ireland 66 (0) 638 0303 Israel 66 (0) 2 260 4854-9 Italy 66 (0) 2 285 4090-3 Japan 66 (0) 2 252 6151-9 South Korea 66 (0) 2 247 7537 Netherlands 66 (0) 2 254 7701-5 New Zealand 66 (0) 2 254 2530 Norway 66 (0) 2 261 0230-5 Russia 66 (0) 2 234 9824 Singapore 66 (0) 2 286 1434 South Korea 66 (0) 2 247 7537 Spain 66 (0) 2 252 6112 Sweden 66 (0) 2 263 7211 or 2 263 7239 Switzerland 66 (0) 2 253 0156 Taiwan 66 (0) 2 670 0200-1 United Kingdom 66 (0) 2 3058333 USA 66 (0) 2 205 4000