Vincentt

I think school uniforms are a good idea.
Uniforms offer a more educational environment.

Children get too distracted by fashion, sexy clothing, what other students are wearing etc.
I can understand how people want to have their own ‘individuality’ but dressing does not make this. I feel many children feel how they dress is what kind of person they are.
Those who cannot buy the most expensive clothing feel they are less then other kids.

School uniforms would have a sort of classical conditioning effect. When students are in their school clothing, they would feel more apt to study. At the very least, they would be in ‘school mode.’

Thoughts?

Mojo_PeiPei

Sounds logical, and I fully agree. Only problem is, somehow, this would be infringing on the students first amendment right...

Coming from an entire background of private/catholic schooling, were my high school unlike most public high schools actually as graduation and college rates in the 95%s, it definitly was one less distraction. I don't really get why this would be an issue to people, god forbid kids get back to the reason they go to school, that is to get a proper education still, right?

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ARTelevision

The notion of "minors' rights" is subject to case-by-case judicial review and is not universally acknowledged.

This link ( http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall99h...ghts/budd.html ) discusses minors' rights in relation to curfews. The relevant passage is:

"...courts have excluded minors from the full reach of the Constitution and have held that the infringement of their rights is subject to less demanding scrutiny than the impairment of the rights of adults."

You'll find the same situation as regards "free speech and free expression" as regards minors. In comparison to adults, minors' "rights" are circumscribed.

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duck0987

The main issue with school uniforms is typically that they are not a set uniform but a dress code such as black slacks and white shirt for boys and a black skirt and white blouse for girls. Despite the schools effort to make all the students dress identical thus breaking down social and economic borders does not work, as the students who do have more money will still have more expensive clothes that meet the dress code. The only way around this is to have a required uniform that must be purchased through the school, but still money will play a roll here in the number of uniforms a student may have or how often they can afford new ones, and not hand me downs from older siblings.

In a perfect world I fully support uniforms, no one complains about the military's "freedom of expression" when they are required to wear a uniform or "shirt and tie" required at restaurants. But economically there are some downfalls.

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OFKU0

I think kids should be able to wear what they want to school. Much as clothes are 'individualistic' so is each persons willingness to learn as such regardless of dress. I think uniforms perform all the functions of segregation, hierarchy, elitism in a society they are being moulded for.

Which why if I ever have kids, they will be home schooled.

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ARTelevision

Actually, IMO, "normal" clothing performs all the functions of segregation, hierarchy, elitism in a society...

Uniforms eliminate that. It's not like there is "rank" in a school uniform situation.

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cyrnel

Agreed. A perfect environment isn't possible but an early start at establishing identity based on accomplishment instead of budget can only be a good thing.

I'll have to bring this up with my nieces later today. Two are just hitting HS. No doubt I'll catch severe abuse.

Justsomeguy

I tend to believe that very few problems are solved through the use of school uniforms. In the schools where uniforms seems like they would make a difference, uniforms very rarely work.

I don't see how they really improve a student's performance either. I mean that it does not change the students' interests. They still value the same things they did before they were given uniforms.

In my experience uniforms corrected problems with offensive shirts. Now students actually have to say what they want rather than the t-shirt saying it for them. Also, I saw alot less ass hanging out of pants. My school thought uniforms were going to correct many problems. I don't see why anyone would think it would make students better students, have sex any less, or put down the bong and pick up a book.

On a slightly different issue, anyone that thinks that school uniforms is going to eliminate gangs and violence in schools is just naive.

Edited to add my view that school uniforms are not a bad option necessarily and have some positive results. However, I do not think they solve any serious problems that exist in schools.

Mojo_PeiPei

No one is saying that it's going to eliminate violence or teen sex Someguy, the idea is that the enviroment won't foster said ways.

I know I don't want street trash repping their colors at my school. It's all about context. Kids are free to do whatever they want, but until they are 16 (or whatever age is accepted by parents) their ass belongs in school, and their sole purpose there is to learn, not to tote $100 pairs or make a fashion statement.

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aberkok

I didn't have any major objections to school uniforms back when I had to wear one. I found in fact that instead of breeding an atmosphere of conformism, my fellows would try to find ways of making their uniform unique. For example, tucking your tie into your shirt.

I did find skirts on girls pretty hot, and I find I can tie a tie really well. On the other hand, there was a rumour going around that our Vice Principal had some level of ownership in the local store who was the main supplier of our uniforms. She was notorious for enforcing the proper wearing of the uniform.

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Justsomeguy

Alot of people do. I'm not referring to this post. There are many people that are naive enough to believe uniforms can eliminate real problems.

1010011010

I'm in the military, so I'm going to have to agree that uniforms do work. You can't really make any assumptions about other people (socioeconomically speaking), so you have to actually learn something about them (or see them in civilian clothes). Generally, by the time you've learned anough about someone to pigeonhole them, you know them too well for stereotypes to fit.

Uniforms. NOT excessively restrictive dress codes. If you just say "black slacks, white dress shirt, tie, dress shoes" there will be a huge variation in quality and appearance. It will be easier to make these judgements, because you know what the common goal is. If you see someone in fucked up crappy casual clothes... are they poor or are they trying to look ghetto punk?

It will have to be specified brands for every item of clothing (ideally, you would give a list of where the uniform items can be ordered) and specified regulations of how they are to be worn. No personalization. You are a faceless cog in the education machine. The same sorts of standards must be applied to teachers and administrators.

I don't think schools have the authority to enforce the level of control required for uniforms to be effective though (and I really don't think the teachers and administrators would go for it, either). I also think the half-assed attempts they can make do more harm than good. I'm also not too sure if the "faceless cog" mindset that makes uniforms work is something I want being taught anyway.

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Seaver

I agree wholeheartedly. For uniforms to be effective, ALL uniforms have to be, well, uniform. You cant have people walking around in cloths from goodwill while others are wearing $400 suites and say everyone is equal. It only puts more uneeded attention to cloths since suddenly the admin are paying more attention to what people are wearing rather than what they are learning. To be effective they'd have to spend way too much attention and investment that it simply isnt worth it. Remember by the time people are upper-classmen they're supposed to be adults afterall.

The_wall

Well first of all, as some who recently graduated public high school, I think a lot of more important changes need to be made before implementing a school dress code. Schools are being standardized which is terrible direction for schools to go. The quality of teachers decreases every year, and the overall absurdity in schools increases.

I also don't like the idea of forcing ANYONE to wear certain clothes, even kids. Hell I don't like the idea of people having to wear clothes in public anyways, but to force them to wear the clothes the school choses is wrong imo. Clothes don't distract kids as much as you guys think. Yeah when a girl would come in wearing the shortest skirt in the world and a tank top that shows a lot of cleavage I would get distracted, but shortly after an administrator would be taking her to the office because that kind of clothing is against the dress code already in place. Basically the distracting clothing is already not allowed.

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Willravel

As a parent I admit that I wouldn't mind paying for a uniform that costs like $100 total as opposed to some Express or Armani outfit worth $300. Kids know what is stylish, and we all know style and price go hand in hand in most cases. I say keep them in uniforms until maybe the end of middle school (k-8). After that just have school rules like skirt below the knee, wear a bra, cover the belly button, pull up the saggy pants, etc. That way the kid can get a job to earn the $$ in order to get the clothes they want. That would better prepare them for the adult world, where we have to work our assses off in order to wear the expensive clothes.

The fact is "clothes make the man (or woman)?" does have truth in it, as people are judged by how they dress. When they go out after high school to get a job wearing a suit from Mervyns or Walmart and they don't get a job, they need to understand why.

Vincentt

I do not think school uniforms would be the only thing that needs to change about our school system. I do not expect children to like it, they are in school to learn, and uniforms would help. While some student’s opinions are not affected by clothing, many are. If wearing X_Cool shirt is so ‘in’, many kids are influenced by seeing or wanting to buy said shirt. This is just one poor example, but I am sure you can see how it relates.

The_wall

Well I just don't see it as a big enough concern to start forcing kids to wear uniforms. Maybe some kids are affected by freedom to wear what you want, but not many. When I was in elemtary I remember being extremely concerned about what I wore to school, but once class had started I would stop thinking about it for just a awhile to try and pay attention, and I was never a good student and was pretty damn bored all throughout school (no clothing had nothing to do with it)

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1010011010

School uniforms will only work if everyone in the school is required to wear them.

You might put the teachers and administrators in a different type of unifrom than the students (much like the Lower Enlisted v. NCO & Officer uniforms), but everyone at the school needs to wear some type of uniform for the system to work. This is why school uniforms will always fail. While the popular court opinion is that students have no rights, schools cannot force the adults at the school to comply.

I'd recommend going all out in replicating various features of military dress.
Have uniform features the identify the class year of a student , club memberships (and positions held), scholastic/athletic/community achievements, etc.
You should be able to look at a student and go "Ah, a sophmore, class of 2007, secretary of the chess club, honor roll student 4 times, 2nd place in the science fair, and a member of the soccer team" just by looking at the patches, badges, ribbons, medals, etc. (and maybe consulting a guidebook ;D).
Likewise, you should be able to look at a teacher and go "Ah, has a M.A. in Education and a B.S. in ecology. Been teaching for 15 years and at this school for 3. Currently in the biology department, teaching ecology, Basic Biology, and the Lab portion of AP Bio. Sponsors the birdwatching club and coaches for girls volleyball."

That would actually be kind of cool, IMO. Sure, you can personalize your uniform, but you have to do that by actively participating and achieving.

Back in the real world, though, it wouldn't get approval, and if it did get approval, it wouldn't get enough cooperation. In short, it wouldn't work.

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pocon1

uniforms would only be one element of improving today's public education system. So yes, it won't fix everything. However, it will help improve some situations. Clothes do create some solidarity and they allow the kids to focus less on style at school. Also, wearing certain clothes and uniforms do have an effect on how people perceive themselves.
I speak from experience. Two years NJROTC in high school (uniforms twice a week). Two years military boarding school. Five years military college. Uniforms work and they do make people more equal.

MiSo

i used to wear school uniforms and i did not have a problem with it.
i actually liked it better because i didn't have to worry about impressing the other kids with my clothes and i didnt have to spend money on clothes all the time.

young kids are immature and tend to want to rebel against what adults tell them so they make up stupid excuses about "individuality and loss of freedom". which is rediculous because almost everywhere you go to work, people are in uniforms.

flstf

I think one of our greatest strengths is our diversity. It should be encouraged. Clothes do not make the person, the kids already know this. Dressing students up like good little boy scouts and girl scouts seems silly.

Mojo_PeiPei

Clothes do not make the person, nor do they equate to diversity.

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flstf

You are right. But having everyone dressed to look exactly the same doesn't help.

Mojo_PeiPei

How does it hurt? How is everyone wearing the samething detrimental? There is a sig floating around here somewhere to the effect of "apperently I'm unique, just like everyone else", maybe there is something to that.

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flstf

I don't know that it hurts all that much. Making everyone dress to look exactly the same just goes against my sense of individuality. The conformity just seems like the wrong message.

cataklysm

An interesting take (if i may play devil's advocate) is that school uniforms hurt low income children. The natural exclusivity of the school uniform (i.e. children wont want to wear them outside of school) means that parents will have to spend more money on clothes that otherwise could have been spent on clothes since these particular clothes can only be worn at one place.

It's also worthy of noting that someone will always have more and less than you. Economic division will always be prevalent in society and the sooner children recognize this and move past it, the healtheir they will be.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I think you guys are looking to deep into this, this isn't just straight about socio-economic issues. I've went to private parochial school k-12, my high school tuition was higher then what it takes to educate a public school kid (rough 7,500 compared to my 8,000+). The idea is about solidarity and enviroment, you are at school to learn, uniforms are one less thing to worry about. You guys will say "It won't help solve anything", maybe it won't. However it could be a start because public schools in this country are fucked up, especially if you break down minority test scores and graduation rates.

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flstf

From everything I've read lately about our test scores I can't disagree with you on that. It would seem that uniforms would be a desparate thing to try to rectify them though.

Threadjack:
As for our kids scoring so much lower than the rest of the world: I wonder how bad it really is. We seem to turn out quite a few talented and gifted students here. A pimply faced Billy Gates squeezing basic to fit into 4K memory and going on to found Microsoft. Jobs and Wosniak screwing around in the garage with phone dialers and computer stuff and going on to found Apple. I wonder just how important these test score comparisons are in predicting future success. Maybe drive, determination and just plain curiosity mean more in the long run.

Mojo_PeiPei

I wouldn't be so much worried about test scores predicting future success, it's more about College and what not. You will always have the select few, a great minority (as opposed to a vast minority) that won't go onto college or may even drop out of high school and recieve success. I don't know how realistic this is anymore, after the dotcom explosion got grounded, at least in regards to the here and now, I think it isn't realistic to expect much success without at least a 4 year degree.

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Justsomeguy

It seems nice but you would end up buying both and spending $400 as opposed to $300. Not to mention, the $300 clothes will probably last a long time. In my experiene(private and public schools), uniforms were cheap material and I had to re-buy throughout the year.

The biggest problem with implementing school uniforms is that it has little effect on anything. Schools that experienced higher test scores or any less misbehavior was most likely due to change in policies and more strict enforcement. Second, sure I understand people saying it will create the different environment and it may be more suited for learning. I disagree. I can tell you that I do not study best when I'm wearing a suit and tie. I understand that most uniforms are not suits and ties, but the same can be said for most uniforms. Without a doubt, more children and teenagers would feel the exact same way.

Personally, I experienced bad problems with uniforms. In my experience, administration really used uniforms as an excuse to abuse their power as an administrator tried to suspend me for having a Banana republic label on the back of my pants(uniform included khakis) that was less than a quarter inch long.

The_wall

All schools prepare you for these days are the corporate lifestyle anyways, so maybe we should make all the kids look like sheep early on.

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energus

I feel awkward about school uniforms, or about most dresscodes for that matter. I study/feel/live best when I am wearing clothes that fit me, suit me and make me feel comfortable. I do have experience with school uniforms (did a placemnt at an English school as a modern language teacher) and felt that there was a big difference in clothing (cheap, expensive, new, old). Furthermore as soon as the bell rang and the kids where out, the atire changed rapidly. Ties were discarded and other shirts (more explicit ones) replaced the school dress code.

The individual will alwys find ways to get around it, especially when it is illegal people will find ways to be "special".

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cataklysm

School officials argue that uniforms are a good idea, but in many cases they cite the wrong reasons. They claim increased violence and gangs, and a lack of discipline and student safety have created the need for school uniforms.

Required uniforms should not be a knee-jerk reaction to the recent school shootings across the nation. Uniforms alone will not eliminate violence. Kids need discipline in the form of definite boundaries and set penalties for crossing them. Good decision making skills aren't implied by a stringent dress code, but rather are taught by example and informed discussion.

As for gangs, groups of like-minded individuals will exist with or without a required school uniform. They will find alternative ways to "mark" themselves as members other than the colors or clothes they wear. Student safety from intruders in the schools will not necessarily be increased just by requiring a uniform. Outsiders will acquire the expected dress if they want to get in bad enough. Photo ID cards are a more practical solution to intruders.

Students claim their freedom of expression is squelched by required uniforms. They don't (and probably won't until they give uniforms a try) realize that there are other more rewarding forms of self-expression that will automatically surface once the superficial focus is taken away from what they are wearing. Some parents opposed to uniforms fear that conformity through uniforms will turn their children into mindless marching communists without individuality. Humans naturally conform to known norms, and instead of allowing the advertisements of Tommy Hilfiger and Abercrombie & Fitch to set these norms, parents and school administrators should take this opportunity to positively influence and simplify one aspect in their students' lives.

Uniforms act as a leveler, allowing all students from widely varying backgrounds to walk on common ground. Also, wearing a uniform that represents the entire student body instills a sense of belonging and boosts self-esteem. Most important, uniforms redirect the focus on what students wear to who they are.

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