Teen sues over Confederate flag prom dress - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 12-24-2004, 09:36 AM

From ACLU legal research found in an April 12, 2004 letter written to Bay City,
MI school system administrators by ACLU, Michigan, Legal Director, Michael J. Steinberg, <a href="http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15672&c=159">(Link to page with wordpad doc.)</a>

Quote:

The courts have made it very clear that students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Tinker, 393 U.S. at 507. Administrators are forbidden from censoring students for political speech or expression unless they can demonstrate that the forbidden conduct would “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school.” Id. at 509, 513. The Supreme Court was careful to point out that an “undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression.” Id. at 508. “Tinker requires a specific and significant fear of disruption, not just some remote apprehension of disturbance.” Saxe v. State Coll. Area Sch. Dist., 240 F.3d 200, 211 (3rd Cir. 2001). Typically, what is required is a “well-founded expectation of disruption – especially one based on past incidents arising out of similar speech . . . .” Id. at 212.

Thus, in Tinker, school officials violated students’ right to wear a black armband to protest the Vietnam War even though there was a strong pro-war sentiment among students and staff. Similarly, in Castorina v. Madison Co. Sch. Bd., 246 F.2d 536, 540 (6th Cir. 2001), the U.S. Court of Appeals held that even though many find the Confederate flag to be a racist symbol, school officials cannot ban shirts displaying the Confederate flag absent evidence that such speech causes or threatens material and substantial interference with a school’s educational environment. Relying on Tinker and Castorina, U.S. District Court Judge Patrick Duggan recently held that the Dearborn Schools violated a student’s right to wear a shirt calling President Bush an international terrorist even though he wore the shirt on the eve of the Iraq War, there were a large number of Iraqis favoring the war in the school, and the terrorist alert level had just been raised to “high.” Barber, 286 F.Supp.2d at 856-58.

(Kentucky is also located in the 6th Federal Circuit Court Jurisdiction, a
fact that provides a more compelling argument that the school system should
have abided by the 6th District Court's recent rulings) <a href="http://www.findlaw.com/11stategov/ky/laws.html">findlaw.com</a>

Since I am an ardent supporter of free speech rights, I'll revise my opinion
by supporting the court ruling cited above, since it is obvious that a school
sponsored social event such as a dance or a prom is extra curricular and
thus cannot "cause or threaten material and substantial interference with a school’s educational environment".

Since it was not difficult for me as an ordinary member of the public to
obtain the legal research quoted above, the Kentucky school administrators
seem to have been derelict in not seeking and or not abiding by the most
recent and most authoritative court rulings before restricting the rights
of the student who wore the stars and bars dress. It appears now to me
that she has a strong civil case and is entitled to seek monetary damages
from the school system as a remedy for it's illegal restriction of her rights.

JohnBua · 12-24-2004, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I'm not saying "certain political flags or statements" are not permitted in public. Reading my post reveals this.

I'm saying she was told her dress wasn't appropriate, then she went ahead and wore it anyway. Of course they wouldn't let her in. This is not a free speech issue, this is about her doing what the school told her not to do at a school function and her being upset about the results. Duh.

So you believe in obeying unconstitutional orders? Again, I hope the school lists what flags are not covered by the first admendment. And I hope the settlement from this case doesn't come from the teacher's future salaries, but the administration's.

Fohur2 · 12-24-2004, 05:52 PM

Why couldn't she of just worn the other Confederate flag,its all the southern pride without the hate...

Seems like she wanted attention.

jonjon42 · 12-24-2004, 06:10 PM

oh yes...and no minors do not have the same constitutional rights as adults....I learned that one the hard way....
therefore the school could dissallow things that they deemed obcene...I have no personal problems with that dress but I wouldn't care if she wore a nazi flagged drapped around her as long as she didn't start threatening people...(and kept a good distance away from me)

Zephyr66 · 12-24-2004, 06:24 PM

I think she had every right to wear the dress. however, I do not believe she has the right to sue them about it.

1010011010 · 12-24-2004, 06:26 PM

I've never really looked into it, but I think it would be fascinating to hear the reasoning for stipping people of less-than an arbitrary age of their rights as humans.

Since the "Stars and Bars" did not originate as a symbol of hate, it must be the case that if it has become a symbolic of hate for some, it has done so through free speech making that association. If someone is not making that association in their use of the symbol (and this girl claims she isn't), then even if you agree "hate speech" can be supressed, her speech is not hate speech, and should be protected.

If a buddhist wanted to exhibit a wheel of life pendant, that should certainly be protected... even if a bunch of folks incorrectly assumed it was a swastika.

Ruse · 12-24-2004, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBua

So you believe in obeying unconstitutional orders? Again, I hope the school lists what flags are not covered by the first admendment. And I hope the settlement from this case doesn't come from the teacher's future salaries, but the administration's.

I dont know what school you went to but where I went we didnt have the first ammendment between school hours and at school sponsored events. The girl has no case.

1010011010 · 12-24-2004, 06:59 PM

Just because a school administration has the ability to supress student speech doesn't mean they are doing so lawfully. Since it's fairly difficult for a minor to bring a legal challenge, I would think the body of law that allows the rights of young people to be abridged isn't well tested.

The girl might have been acting contrary to the rules set up by the school's administration, but the school does not necessarily have the authority to make such rules. That is a possible basis for her case.

JohnBua · 12-24-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruse

I dont know what school you went to but where I went we didnt have the first ammendment between school hours and at school sponsored events. The girl has no case.

Sounds like you went to a school outside of the United States.

Ruse · 12-24-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBua

Sounds like you went to a school outside of the United States.

Try again.
I doubt you would be able to find a school where you could attend and dress up like Hitler, Tojo or Stallin, yell obscene things and pass out fliers with your plans of genocide and recipes for fetal quiche or gimp leg stew. People will be offended. Seems to me like schools limit freedom to not just for "shits and giggles" but to prevent people from being offended ( the best they can ) and to maintain a comfortable learning environment. And while this was at a dance, it was still a school sponsored event, which means school rules still apply.
What if the school had given in and let her wear the dress and other people had been offended and sued? I dont really like PC crap but I think schools are the most effected by it. Had the school allowed her to wear it, they could have been possibly dealing with even more crap than this right now.

pocon1 · 12-24-2004, 08:30 PM

To me, and to millions of other people, the confederate battle flag is a symbol that marks racism and white supremacy. Make all the arguments you want, But I went to school in the South, and you had the occasionaly dipshit ask "are you a nigger lover?". So I can recognize a racist symbol and what it entails.
As far as the 14 year old girl, is no one upset by the fact that this girl has such a sexual statement on her shirt, regardless of the sexuality preference? I don't think the school should condone a shirt stating Barbie's sexual preference. This girl is 14 years old, dammit. 14 year olds are way too young for this, and the school has every right to make her change her clothes or go home. Sexual discussions do not belong in school except for in a classroom with a qualified teacher.

1010011010 · 12-24-2004, 08:58 PM

By what justification does the state deprive students of various rights while at school?

Does that reasoning stand outside of school and outside of an educational setting? If not, the state has no authority to invoke "school rules" to deprive young people of their rights.

________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocon1

To me, and to millions of other people, the confederate battle flag is a symbol that marks racism and white supremacy. Make all the arguments you want, But I went to school in the South, and you had the occasional dipshit ask "are you a nigger lover?". So I can recognize a racist symbol and what it entails.

The majority doesn't get to supress alternative interpretations and uses of a symbol just because they choose to interpret the symbol in a certain way. Others are free to ascribe different meanings to the same symbols, and use the symbols for those meanings.

Though I'm willing to bet to you, and to millions of other people, if someone says they interpret the confederate flag in the context of historical southern heritage, you take "southern heritage" to mean "racism and white supremacy". At which point meaningful discourse ends.

Both the United Methodist Church and the Ku Klux Klan use the symbolism of the cross and flame. Seems like it would be slightly stupid to go into a conversation with a random Methodist assuming they're a KKK member, no?

1010011010 · 12-24-2004, 09:46 PM

How do you go about deleting posts? See above post for content.

JohnBua · 12-24-2004, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruse

Try again.
I doubt you would be able to find a school where you could attend and dress up like Hitler, Tojo or Stallin, yell obscene things and pass out fliers with your plans of genocide and recipes for fetal quiche or gimp leg stew. People will be offended. Seems to me like schools limit freedom to not just for "shits and giggles" but to prevent people from being offended ( the best they can ) and to maintain a comfortable learning environment. And while this was at a dance, it was still a school sponsored event, which means school rules still apply.
What if the school had given in and let her wear the dress and other people had been offended and sued? I dont really like PC crap but I think schools are the most effected by it. Had the school allowed her to wear it, they could have been possibly dealing with even more crap than this right now.

If a student wishes to dress up like Hitler, Tojo or Stalin, that is their right. A public school does not have the authority to dictate what you can or can not wear. Just because some public schools do this, doesn't mean that they are permitted to do so.
As far as yelling, and such, as long as they are not in class, they are also permited to do so. Remember, public schools are PUBLIC.

filtherton · 12-25-2004, 12:16 AM

I think it is important to remember that in the context of current events, the confederacy was nothing more than a treasonous, terrorist organization.

Beyond that, i don't really care either way. If the courts decide she deserves money, i hope her school district can afford it.

guthmund · 12-25-2004, 12:34 AM

If you're going to go out of your way to be offended, then you deserve to be offended.

She was told beforehand and chose to wear it anyway. For that reason, I can't agree with her position.

However, I will say that a dress is just a dress and the school district probably shouldn't have issued the edict in the first place. Like I said, if you're going to go out of your way....

Fred181 · 12-25-2004, 03:21 AM

Everyone here needs to read Host's post on the Supreme Court's ruling in the Tinker case. Rules that pertain to issues of the 1st ammendment are not up to school teachers, administrators etc. to decided These are constitutional rights guaranteed to all Americans. Are there some limitations to those rights based on the educational environment, yes; but as the supreme court ruled, just because you are a fifteen year old high school student you do not lose your right to express your ideas.

Regarding the young lady, I am really suprised at the number of people that responded with "she knew it was wrong she shouldn't have done it". So then should Rosa Parks not have gotten out of her seat on the bus because she new that it was wrong? It's called civil disobedience people. One of the tactics that has proven extremely effective in inducing social change in, not only this country, but the world. Think Ghandi, Thoureau, King, etc.

We can argue about what the Confederate flag stands for (I personally agree with Mr Mephisto in that it is a racist symbol), but the point of all of this is that this school violated the Constitutionally gauranteed civil rights of one of its students and should, in order to keep this from occuring again, be punished.

Vincentt · 12-25-2004, 03:29 AM

If I tell women before I hire her, that she will be the object of constant harassment, does that make it legal to harass her at will? If I warn you not to say another word, and then punch you, is that legal? The warning does not change the legalities here.

Personally, I do not care about kids ‘dressing’ rights. If I had it my way, all public schools would have uniforms. However, a ‘warning’ here is not going to suffice in court.

Rekna · 12-25-2004, 11:46 AM

If I wore a shirt to school that stated "I support Al'Queda" or "Thank God for 9/11" do you think that would be apporpriete? How about if I wore a shirt that said "Hitler had it right, kill all the Jews" Or what if it was a shirt that said "It's time to clense the races kill all the N*ggers" There is a point where free speach stops and that is when it becomes inflamitory. Wearing a confederate flag is simalar to these statements above to some people. This is why the school said don't wear it, this is why she should have listened, and this is why she will have no case.

1010011010 · 12-25-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

If I wore a shirt to school that stated "I support Al'Queda" or "Thank God for 9/11" do you think that would be apporpriete?

I prefer the "9/11 was a Faith Based Initiative" and "Support Our Troops" (with pictures from Abu Ghraib) t-shirts, personally. If you wore any of these shirts out on the street, do you agree it should be okay for the police to arrest and/or detain you? Hopefully not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

How about if I wore a shirt that said "Hitler had it right, kill all the Jews" Or what if it was a shirt that said "It's time to clense the races kill all the N*ggers" There is a point where free speach stops and that is when it becomes inflamitory.

Correct. And if you cross that line, it doesn't matter if you're a student or not. Since I presume you agree in most circumstances the State has no authority to supress the use of the confederate flag by citizens, it's clear the flag is not across that line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Wearing a confederate flag is simalar to these statements above to some people.

There is no text with a confederate flag. A shirt that says "Kill the Kikes and Niggers" is not the same a shirt that is brown... though they can both be used to say the same thing. It would be ludicrous for a school to ban the wearing of brown shirts on the off chance that someone might make a Nazi association and offend themselves.

Just because people will choose to be offended by a confederate flag does not mean the school has any grounds to supress inoffensive speech using the confederate flag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

This is why the school said don't wear it, this is why she should have listened, and this is why she will have no case.

You're assuming the school has the authority to make such judgements. If it does not, then it's not The School issuing orders to A Student. It's one citizen talking to another. And if the second decides not to take the first citizen's advice, the first citizen doesn't get to exploit an irrelevant relationship (I.E. the school/student thing) to coerce the citizen.

I agree it's a bad idea to wear a confederate flag, even with the best intentions. You will be misunderstood and probably upset a number of people. But people are Free to make mistakes- and learn from them (or not). That goes for the people trying to use the confederate flag inoffensively AND for the people who choose to be offended by its use.

Sue · 12-25-2004, 02:12 PM

I just want to see the dress!

Ruse · 12-25-2004, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue

I just want to see the dress!

Its in the link from CNN

Pic of dress at top

Rekna · 12-26-2004, 01:02 AM

I don't know about your schools but mine had a handbook that had rules, a couple of the rules were "Failure to listen to faculty can result in disiplinary action" and "Anything not covered in this handbook can be delt with disiplinary action" (aka elastic clause).

Would it be ok for me to wear a shirt with a picture of Bin Laden on the front and 2 thumbs up on the back? There are no words on it yet it would cause a problem. Freedom of speach can not be used as a legal reason for saying something if that something would reasonibly insight violence or hatred.

sob · 12-26-2004, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

The flag commonly refered to as the confederate flag, was actually a battle flag that was used to identify Confederate troops on the battlefield.

Tha actual Confederate flag looked to similar to the US flag, causing much confusion in the the early stages of the American Civil War.

The war had less to do with slavery, at the time, as relatively few southerners actually owned slaves. Slaves were an expensive commodity. The war began over the issue of states sovereign rights, then evolved into an issue over slavery when President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation, freeing slaves only in those states in open rebellion to the US.(border states, loyal to neither, were left alone). This issue effectively kept England from formally recognizing the Confederate States as a nation, severely limiting their chances for winning the war. Which, of course, they did not.
The image of the confederate battle flag has since been adopted as a symbol used by various white supremacist groups, most notably the KKK, and the Aryan Nation. This fact, coupled with revisionist history of the Civil War, has turned a once proud symbol into a feared, and much maligned, emblom of hatred.
This has been your Bill O'Rights history lesson, for the day. By the way, I am a Civil War Re-enactor, and have portrayed soldiers, and officers, from both sides of the conflict. Hope this helps?

Oh, and by the way, the kid knew better. Kick her in the butt, and tell her to get on with her life.

Thank you for one of the very few ACCURATE recitations I've seen on this subject.

I'd like to offer a small correction. When Lincoln "freed the slaves," he excluded all slaves in the Union, and all slaves in portions of the Confederacy that were under Union control. The fact that they were border states was only peripheral to his plan, which was an attempt to instigate an uprising, not to free any slaves.

In fact, as I'm sure you know, Lincoln had plans to ship US blacks back to Africa. Some "emancipator."

Oh, and Mrs. U. S. Grant had slaves for about ten years after the war ended.

sob · 12-26-2004, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think it is important to remember that in the context of current events, the confederacy was nothing more than a treasonous, terrorist organization.

So what were the 13 colonies?

sob · 12-26-2004, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

To those who claim the Confederate battle flag (thank, BOR) is a symbol of Southern pride, not of racism, I offer you the swastika, which was, among other things, a Buddhist religious symbol before the Nazis adopted it. Southerners, find another way to celebrate your pride in your birthplace, because racist jackholes have ruined that one.

This girl was told not to wear her dress. Rather than take the issue to court before the prom, she decided to just go ahead and break the rule. No luck, no money, please take your nuisance lawsuit and go away. Also, her attorney is named Earl-Ray.

"because racist jackholes...Also, her attorney is named Earl-Ray."

Hmmmm.

Sue · 12-26-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruse

Its in the link from CNN

Pic of dress at top

Thanks, missed that one

Strange Famous · 12-26-2004, 10:10 AM

I think that such a dress would look utterly ridiculous.

filtherton · 12-26-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob

So what were the 13 colonies?

They were treasonous terrorists too, but our country is the result, rather than the victim of their treason.

FngKestrel · 12-26-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

They were treasonous terrorists too, but our country is the result, rather than the victim of their treason.

The winners write history?

1010011010 · 12-26-2004, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I don't know about your schools but mine had a handbook that had rules, a couple of the rules were "Failure to listen to faculty can result in disiplinary action" and "Anything not covered in this handbook can be delt with disiplinary action" (aka elastic clause).

Just because a school has put something in their rulebook does not mean they have a legitimate power to compell students to comply. The question is no whether the school had rules against it, or if the school told the girl not to wear the dress. Those are accepted facts of the case. The question is whether or not the school has any authority to enforce such rules or orders outside of the school. A further question would be whether schools have the authority to enforce such rules inside the schools, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Would it be ok for me to wear a shirt with a picture of Bin Laden on the front and 2 thumbs up on the back? There are no words on it yet it would cause a problem. Freedom of speach can not be used as a legal reason for saying something if that something would reasonibly [incite] violence or hatred.

Would it be ok for you to wear a shirt with a picture of Bush on the front and 2 thumbs up on the back?

To the extent that a t-shirt (or a dress) causes disruption, it is caused by the reactions of other students. So if someone wore either of those shirts, and disruption resulted, it should be suggested to the student to turn your shirt inside out, wear your jacket, etc. and the students who participated in the disruption (which may or may not include the student wearing the shirt) should be disciplined appropriately.

__________________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

To those who claim the Confederate battle flag (thank, BOR) is a symbol of Southern pride, not of racism, I offer you the swastika, which was, among other things, a Buddhist religious symbol before the Nazis adopted it. Southerners, find another way to celebrate your pride in your birthplace, because racist jackholes have ruined that one.

Just to clarify, the wheel of life IS a Buddhist religious symbol. The way to "ruin" a symbol is to supress its use except to represent the offensive interpretation in a negative context. If people wish to recover inoffensive/positive meaning for a symbol, they have to use it in inoffensive/positive ways. The fact that ignorant people may choose to misinterpret the symbol in ways they find offensive is a seperate problem... and it should be up to the people trying to use the symbol in an inoffensive/positive way to decide how to deal with it.

1010011010 · 12-26-2004, 04:58 PM

http://spofga.org/flag/2004/dec/prom..._lawsuit.phtml has a several more pictures.

filtherton · 12-26-2004, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FngKestrel

The winners write history?

Yes, the winners do write history. That is why history is only relevant if everyone can agree on what "actually" happened. I would argue here that the history of the confederate flag is a great deal less important than its meaning in contemporary society.

1010011010 · 12-26-2004, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I would argue here that the history of the confederate flag is a great deal less important than its meaning in contemporary society.

I am frankly flabergasted by your comment.
It's like insisting "Why do buddhists hate jews?" is a reasonable question.
If the symbol is being used to refer to its historical context, and not to (one of) its meaning(s) in contemproary society, I'd say it's the other way around.

MSD · 12-26-2004, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBua

Public schools can not, and should not, dictate what you should wear. Especially at paid functions.

I completely agree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Wrong. She wouldn't be allowed into the prom/class naked, now would she? Same with clothing that is offensive. Same with gang related clothing. She was told before hand it wasn't ok to wear - she's either completely stupid or vying for attention. Possibly both. Either way she's in the wrong.

The only reason I see to ban nudity in public places is hygeine (I know I misspelled it) issues. I have no problem seeing people naked or having them see me naked, but I would rather everyone wear pants to keep it relatively clean.

Faygo · 12-26-2004, 09:33 PM

My lord that dress is u-g-l-y.

filtherton · 12-26-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

I am frankly flabergasted by your comment.
It's like insisting "Why do buddhists hate jews?" is a reasonable question.
If the symbol is being used to refer to its historical context, and not to (one of) its meaning(s) in contemproary society, I'd say it's the other way around.

Swastikas can be a symbol of good luck. Very few people would have the balls to plaster it all over their clothing and wear it around under the pretext of luck though. For most people, the contemporary significance of the swastika can be traced directly back the ww2. Certainly one could wear a swastika as a good luck charm, but that person would be a fool to be surprised if that swastika were to be associated with naziism. Maybe it's not fair or rational, but then again, that's the way humans are.

You could claim that the confederate flag represents state's rights, but it could also easily be claimed that the confederate flag represents treason, and the fight for slavery with equal validity. It all depends on who you ask.

As for this particular instance, i'm all for people wearing whatever the fuck they want. Getting offended is a choice, often a very unproductive one. Looking at the dress i find it difficult to believe that she worked on the design for four years, though.

Strange Famous · 12-27-2004, 01:49 AM

I thought the German swastika was reversed, and the other way round to the old sun symbol?

filtherton · 12-27-2004, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I thought the German swastika was reversed, and the other way round to the old sun symbol?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but i think many americans would be incapable of making the distinction.

Macheath · 12-27-2004, 05:14 AM

Gosh, wouldn't it have been a better tribute to make the flag out of curtains.

But then again, I don't give a damn.

12-24-2004, 06:10 PM	#44 (permalink)
jonjon42 Psycho Location: inside my own mind	oh yes...and no minors do not have the same constitutional rights as adults....I learned that one the hard way.... therefore the school could dissallow things that they deemed obcene...I have no personal problems with that dress but I wouldn't care if she wore a nazi flagged drapped around her as long as she didn't start threatening people...(and kept a good distance away from me) __________________ A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

12-24-2004, 06:26 PM	#46 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	I've never really looked into it, but I think it would be fascinating to hear the reasoning for stipping people of less-than an arbitrary age of their rights as humans. Since the "Stars and Bars" did not originate as a symbol of hate, it must be the case that if it has become a symbolic of hate for some, it has done so through free speech making that association. If someone is not making that association in their use of the symbol (and this girl claims she isn't), then even if you agree "hate speech" can be supressed, her speech is not hate speech, and should be protected. If a buddhist wanted to exhibit a wheel of life pendant, that should certainly be protected... even if a bunch of folks incorrectly assumed it was a swastika. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

12-24-2004, 06:59 PM	#48 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	Just because a school administration has the ability to supress student speech doesn't mean they are doing so lawfully. Since it's fairly difficult for a minor to bring a legal challenge, I would think the body of law that allows the rights of young people to be abridged isn't well tested. The girl might have been acting contrary to the rules set up by the school's administration, but the school does not necessarily have the authority to make such rules. That is a possible basis for her case. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

12-24-2004, 09:46 PM	#53 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	How do you go about deleting posts? See above post for content. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions* Last edited by 1010011010; 12-24-2004 at 09:49 PM..

12-25-2004, 12:34 AM	#56 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	If you're going to go out of your way to be offended, then you deserve to be offended. She was told beforehand and chose to wear it anyway. For that reason, I can't agree with her position. However, I will say that a dress is just a dress and the school district probably shouldn't have issued the edict in the first place. Like I said, if you're going to go out of your way.... __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

12-24-2004, 05:52 PM	#43 (permalink)
Fohur2 Crazy	Why couldn't she of just worn the other Confederate flag,its all the southern pride without the hate... Seems like she wanted attention.

12-24-2004, 06:24 PM	#45 (permalink)
Zephyr66 My custom title's the shit! Location: Canada	I think she had every right to wear the dress. however, I do not believe she has the right to sue them about it.

12-24-2004, 08:30 PM	#51 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	To me, and to millions of other people, the confederate battle flag is a symbol that marks racism and white supremacy. Make all the arguments you want, But I went to school in the South, and you had the occasionaly dipshit ask "are you a nigger lover?". So I can recognize a racist symbol and what it entails. As far as the 14 year old girl, is no one upset by the fact that this girl has such a sexual statement on her shirt, regardless of the sexuality preference? I don't think the school should condone a shirt stating Barbie's sexual preference. This girl is 14 years old, dammit. 14 year olds are way too young for this, and the school has every right to make her change her clothes or go home. Sexual discussions do not belong in school except for in a classroom with a qualified teacher.

12-25-2004, 12:16 AM	#55 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think it is important to remember that in the context of current events, the confederacy was nothing more than a treasonous, terrorist organization. Beyond that, i don't really care either way. If the courts decide she deserves money, i hope her school district can afford it.

12-25-2004, 03:21 AM	#57 (permalink)
Fred181 Crazy Location: Frigid North	Everyone here needs to read Host's post on the Supreme Court's ruling in the Tinker case. Rules that pertain to issues of the 1st ammendment are not up to school teachers, administrators etc. to decided These are constitutional rights guaranteed to all Americans. Are there some limitations to those rights based on the educational environment, yes; but as the supreme court ruled, just because you are a fifteen year old high school student you do not lose your right to express your ideas. Regarding the young lady, I am really suprised at the number of people that responded with "she knew it was wrong she shouldn't have done it". So then should Rosa Parks not have gotten out of her seat on the bus because she new that it was wrong? It's called civil disobedience people. One of the tactics that has proven extremely effective in inducing social change in, not only this country, but the world. Think Ghandi, Thoureau, King, etc. We can argue about what the Confederate flag stands for (I personally agree with Mr Mephisto in that it is a racist symbol), but the point of all of this is that this school violated the Constitutionally gauranteed civil rights of one of its students and should, in order to keep this from occuring again, be punished. __________________ My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

12-25-2004, 03:29 AM	#58 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	If I tell women before I hire her, that she will be the object of constant harassment, does that make it legal to harass her at will? If I warn you not to say another word, and then punch you, is that legal? The warning does not change the legalities here. Personally, I do not care about kids ‘dressing’ rights. If I had it my way, all public schools would have uniforms. However, a ‘warning’ here is not going to suffice in court.

12-25-2004, 11:46 AM	#59 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	If I wore a shirt to school that stated "I support Al'Queda" or "Thank God for 9/11" do you think that would be apporpriete? How about if I wore a shirt that said "Hitler had it right, kill all the Jews" Or what if it was a shirt that said "It's time to clense the races kill all the N*ggers" There is a point where free speach stops and that is when it becomes inflamitory. Wearing a confederate flag is simalar to these statements above to some people. This is why the school said don't wear it, this is why she should have listened, and this is why she will have no case.

12-25-2004, 02:12 PM	#61 (permalink)
Sue Teufel Hunden's Freundin Location: Westminster, CO	I just want to see the dress! __________________ Teg yw edrych tuag adref.

12-26-2004, 01:02 AM	#63 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I don't know about your schools but mine had a handbook that had rules, a couple of the rules were "Failure to listen to faculty can result in disiplinary action" and "Anything not covered in this handbook can be delt with disiplinary action" (aka elastic clause). Would it be ok for me to wear a shirt with a picture of Bin Laden on the front and 2 thumbs up on the back? There are no words on it yet it would cause a problem. Freedom of speach can not be used as a legal reason for saying something if that something would reasonibly insight violence or hatred.

12-26-2004, 10:10 AM	#68 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I think that such a dress would look utterly ridiculous. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-26-2004, 04:58 PM	#72 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	http://spofga.org/flag/2004/dec/prom..._lawsuit.phtml has a several more pictures. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

12-26-2004, 09:33 PM	#76 (permalink)
Faygo Banned	My lord that dress is u-g-l-y.

12-27-2004, 01:49 AM	#78 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I thought the German swastika was reversed, and the other way round to the old sun symbol? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-27-2004, 05:14 AM	#80 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	Gosh, wouldn't it have been a better tribute to make the flag out of curtains. But then again, I don't give a damn.