Mephisto2

What do you think of this?

I'm amazed. Surely she has no case? I don't agree she should be allowed to wear it. And I think the fact that she was told beforehand, but decided to wear it anyway, goes against her chances.

Thoughts?


Mr Mephisto

Seaver

I'm a strong supporter that the "confederate flag" really has less to do with slavery than states rights and southern pride...

But this is a case of being a jackass. She was told before hand, she knew the consiquences, and she did it and now is sueing. She had plenty of time to appeal it the right way.

Willravel

I hope her case get's lynched. The school said no. She wore it anyway. This is cut and dry. 'Duty' should get on with her life and not try to extort the poor public school system.

alansmithee

Do people also think the school is right in this case?
This case led to a $30,000 settlement. I believe the confederate dress case will come out similarly.

I don't agree with either decision, but I don't see how there are really different. Both come down to freedom of speech/expression, and the current climate seems to favor no limits on either.

Mephisto2

alan, it seems to me that she did have a case, as she was ridiculed in class. She was also held in detention.

With regards to the confederate flag story, the girl was warned beforehand not to wear it and she arrived with it on anyway.

Different circumstances in my opinion.


Mr Mephisto

stevo

She was warned beforehand, and if there's such a law in Greenup county, Kentucky that would keep her from wearing the dress, then her suit should be thrown out. I think the real crime here, though, is that she wore a confederate flag dress! Thats got to look tacky, she was probably arrested by the Greenup county sherrif's dept's fashion patrol, and rightly so. I don't have feelings on the confederate flag either way, except that it makes a really bad prom dress.

fatbob

sorry, a little off topic...
is the confederate flag the one that was used in dukes of hazard?
just that someone on my street in edinburgh has the confederate flag in their window (red, with the blue and white stars diagonally striped across it) and i wondered what it was and why they might have it up?

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energus

I read this, with a picture of the dress, (which was not that bad as I thought it would be) and to be honest I do not see the problem of wearing such a dress. Unless, as is in this case, the wearer was warned beforehand and knew what she was getting into.

However I might be misstaken, but was the Confederate Flag just that. the flag of the states that no longer wanted to be a part of the USA? However since my American history is hazy (at best) I am not sure if it is a racist attribute by nature or by (later) association. Can anyone clarify that to a unknowing European?

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typhus

She would of been better off to sue before the prom for the right to wear the dress. I don't think she has a case since the school told her she couldn't. She had plenty of time to look into this, she spent four years designing the dress.

The little lesbian had a case because no one warned her and the teacher laughed at her.

Just my opinion.

Averett

The only crime here was a crime against Fashion. That was one fugly dress.

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ShaniFaye

This girl has no class or taste...didnt her momma raise her any better than that?

hell my mother wouldnt even let me wear those union jack shirts back when Def Leppard was making them popular.

Suing in this case is completely idiotic

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Konichiwaneko

She was an ass, but concerning the flag I don't see it as a sign of Racism (I'm asian, born in the south so I'm kinda a paradox I guess)

THe 7 stars represents the states of the confederacy and I appreciate that. THe only thing I didn't care for is the Georgia Flag which had the confederate flag introduced to it in the 50/60's to incite racist behavior.

The girl is an ass, that's my view point.

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Bill O'Rights

The flag commonly refered to as the confederate flag, was actually a battle flag that was used to identify Confederate troops on the battlefield.

Tha actual Confederate flag looked to similar to the US flag, causing much confusion in the the early stages of the American Civil War.


The war had less to do with slavery, at the time, as relatively few southerners actually owned slaves. Slaves were an expensive commodity. The war began over the issue of states sovereign rights, then evolved into an issue over slavery when President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation, freeing slaves only in those states in open rebellion to the US.(border states, loyal to neither, were left alone). This issue effectively kept England from formally recognizing the Confederate States as a nation, severely limiting their chances for winning the war. Which, of course, they did not.
The image of the confederate battle flag has since been adopted as a symbol used by various white supremacist groups, most notably the KKK, and the Aryan Nation. This fact, coupled with revisionist history of the Civil War, has turned a once proud symbol into a feared, and much maligned, emblom of hatred.
This has been your Bill O'Rights history lesson, for the day. By the way, I am a Civil War Re-enactor, and have portrayed soldiers, and officers, from both sides of the conflict. Hope this helps?

Oh, and by the way, the kid knew better. Kick her in the butt, and tell her to get on with her life.

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Averett

Thanks, Bill. I've always loved Civil War history

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Lebell

Free speech applies to all political speech, not just the ones you support.

If a girl gets a judgement for a 'lesbian' t-shirt, then this one should get a judgement for a 'redneck' dress.

In that respect, it seems pretty black and white to me.

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energus

History lesson read and understood. Now certain pieces come togehter.

However makes this case in porticulair even stranger. Why was she not allowed beforehand to wear that dress? However she was duly warned and could have known this was coming.

As for the Barby is a Lesbian thing (besides being true, I mean she was with ken for such a long time. And never married? Sounds suspicious) I find that completly different. She was gay and was ridiculed for that and sent to detention for wearing a shirt (luckily Dutch schools are more relaxed otherwise I'd never been in any classes due to my "casual" atire). Furthermore she was not warned in advance.

In the Netherlands only the dress would/could be an isue and probably be settled out of court, or she probably could have worn the dress with nor probs.

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Bill O'Rights

Because, as I stated earlier, that particular emblem has been adopted by by groups espousing racism and hate. It is a heated topic between historians, preservationists, heritage organizations and civil rights groups. It's an issue that's bound not to be resolved anytime soon.

Oh, and thanks Averett. I bet you'd looking fetching in a hoop skirt.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Seaver

The confederate battle flag actually belonged to the confederate navy, about halfway through the war it was so popular it was adapted from the square form into a rectangle for land battles.

It was adoped by racist groups and suddenly instead of a proud symbol it became to many a symbol of hate and ignorance.

fibber

Well the KKK has adopted the goddamn cross as well, so the next time I see a cross in a church window or around someones neck, I'm gonna beat the shit out of their racist ass......please.

-fibber

fuzyfuzer

apparrently it is well understood here that the flag is not intended to be racist and that wasn't what the war was really over. (it wasn't a war over race untill the emancipation proclimation. it was more over the tarif that helped manufacturers in the north but hurt southern exports.) it is unfortunate however that a large percantage that display this flag atleast in my experince show for racist reasons that they believe it shows

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host

To those who perceive themselves to be victims of the philosophy and
deeds practiced by the institutions that a flag, over time, is generally known to represent, the associated flag becomes an offensive symbol. If the pool of
victims is large enough to wield political or economic clout, and the flag
is the symbol of an entity that ends up on the losing side of a military conflict, the losing side often loses it's ability to openly display it's "colors".

In the historical acounts of naval engagements, an easy example is the
practice of commanders of defeated ships lowering their flag to signal their
submission and surrender to superior forces.

The Confederacy surrendered to the Union almost 140 years ago. Will it be
acceptable some day for another flag of a losing side, a 1940's German SS
unit, to be flown on a staff or sewn into a dress pattern and publically worn
at a school sponsered function?

You may not find the confederate battle flag to be a particularly offensive
symbol, but I believe that since it is nearly universally associated with an
institution that was financed by slave holders and embraced the legal right
of wealthy caucasian planters to own and trade non-caucasian, enslaved
humans in large numbers, it is offensive and profane. The institution that it
represented also perpetrated an armed insurrection against the United States. The insurrection was put down and it's military forces eliminated,
only after a huge cost in lives and in property to both sides.

If you believe that the girl with a dress patterned after the flag of a militarily defeated, repressive regime, guilty of the practice of a widespread crime
against humanity; in this case, slavery, and of armed rebellion, has a grievance that should be granted relief in civil court, can you offer a similar
argument in support of wearing a prom dress patterned after the SS flag ?

<center><center><img src="http://me.to/ssdanzig.jpg">

Mojo_PeiPei

Nevermind...

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pattycakes

She has a case because as someone stated, the flag does not just stand for slavery. It stands for the south, as the states them selves how they were united. If she wore and iraqui flag dress before 911 no one would have cared, but if she wore one after 911 what would have happened?

Just because her dress was a flag does not mean anything when it comes to how she feels twards black people she is just proud of her states

RAGEAngel9

Um.. you know Iraq wasn't involved with 9/11, right?


On topic:
Should she legally be allowed to wear this dress? I would think so.
Does the school have the option to disallow it? I would think this is a local issue (school boards, pta, and such).
Is that dress ugly? Yes
Is she trying to be an attention whore? Most likely.
Why am I still typing and being involved? I have no life.

Merry Holidays!

Kadath

To those who claim the Confederate battle flag (thank, BOR) is a symbol of Southern pride, not of racism, I offer you the swastika, which was, among other things, a Buddhist religious symbol before the Nazis adopted it. Southerners, find another way to celebrate your pride in your birthplace, because racist jackholes have ruined that one.

This girl was told not to wear her dress. Rather than take the issue to court before the prom, she decided to just go ahead and break the rule. No luck, no money, please take your nuisance lawsuit and go away. Also, her attorney is named Earl-Ray.

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MacGuyver

She should have questioned why she was prohibited to wear the dress when she was first told not to. Then taken legal action upon that, instead of disreguarding their word, and suffering the consequences. If she had taken legal action when told not ot wear it, she wouldn't be having problems, and probably would have been allowed to wear the dress.

With the lesbian story... why the hell would a teacher make her take rainbow colored beads out of her hair?!? Thats absolutely ludicrous, and blatantly showing thier bias against homosexuals. Those teachers should be fired.

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JohnBua

If it is a public school, then she should be allowed to wear that dress. Freedome of speech is a funny thing. Even people with unpopular opinions get to enjoy that freedom.

I hope the money she will recieve doesn't cost the teachers, but rather the administration, any future raises.

Coppertop

Schools should be allowed to dictate whatever dress codes they want. They told her not to wear it, she did anyway. She knew beforehand it wasn't cool to do. The school would be expected to not allow her into the prom if her dress was covered with racial slurs, that's not violating her free speach. It's common sense. School prom = school policy, deal with it people. She'd only have a case if she was told beforehand it'd be ok and they changed their mind at the door.

Lebell

Host,

Given the same set of circumstances, I would indeed support such a dress.

You've made a bad assumption, e.g. that I don't find the stars and bars offensive, when in reality I do. I think that it has become inextricably linked to racism, even as the swastika has.

I also think that I need to say that I think that schools need to be allowed to set dress codes and that children should be censored in some ways that adults are not. What I see in the offered comparative case is hypocrisy, that a school cannot censor a child for wearing a homosexual related t-shirt, but that they can for wearing a confederate dress.

IMO, neither should be allowed if they become a disruption or both should be allowed. (I would actually institute manditory dress codes banning t-shirts, but that is another thread.)

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Mephisto2

I disagree with you, as do many Civil War historians.

A lot of (revisionist?) historians seem to like arguing this point, as I guess they don't like the taste of defending slavery. But the fact remains that slavery was fundamental to the outbreak of the war. The Southern States warned that they would secede if Lincoln was elected or inaugurated, due expressly to his anti-slavery position.

Yes they were. As were plantations and large houses and horse carriages and holiday homes etc. The point is that the monied classes, those in positions of power, had slaves. And because of the invention of the cotton gin and the emergence of cotton plantations, they had most to lose.

The fact that most Southerners had no slaves has no relevance at all, as most Southerners had no real power or influence over Southern politics.

The right to hold slaves, the right to extend slavery to new states, the right to have escaped slaves returned etc etc.

To say that slavery only became an issue after the Emancipation Proclamation is, at best, wrong and at worst, disengenous. It was an issue over 40 years BEFORE the war even started.

Absolutely correct. And there was a very real danger that this would have happened. The only thing that stopped Great Britian (the world super-power of the time) from recognizing the Confederacy was the repugnance of slavery. Had the Confederates themselves considered some kind of emancipation (as recommended by several of their own politicans and generals) would have swung it towards their favour. But the fact they did not (another example of how slavery, and not State's rights were foremost in Confederate minds) coupled with the North's Emancipation Proclamation effectively sealed their fate. Britian now withheld recognition from the South, despite the Trent Affair, despite the damage to their cloth-making industry, despite the cotton embargo.. Once the North "freed the slaves" (even if it was only a first step), Britian had no choice.

Well, to be perfectly honest, it was the battle flag of a confederation of States, who seceded to protect slavery. It has been used ever since by racist extremists. And, as far as I remember, it's actually illegal to fly on State buildings in many countries.

In another thread I used the phrase "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck." The fact remains that the flag represents racist extremism to the vast majority of people. You may find that lamentable, but it's a fact.

The swastika (or tetraskelion) is actually a spiritual symbol and is quite important in Hindu and Budhist religions, amongst others. But most of the world relate it to Nazism. Same issue here.

And a rather revisionist one at that.

I'm an armchair Civil War historian (ie, I love the subject and buy and read far too many book on the subject). Interesting subject.

Agreed! :-)



Mr Mephisto

JohnBua

Public schools can not, and should not, dictate what you should wear. Especially at paid functions.

Coppertop

Wrong. She wouldn't be allowed into the prom/class naked, now would she? Same with clothing that is offensive. Same with gang related clothing. She was told before hand it wasn't ok to wear - she's either completely stupid or vying for attention. Possibly both. Either way she's in the wrong.

JohnBua

The dress in question was a poltical flag. Are you saying that certain poltical flags and or statements are not permited in public settings? If so, which flags are not permitted?

Coppertop

I'm not saying "certain political flags or statements" are not permitted in public. Reading my post reveals this.

I'm saying she was told her dress wasn't appropriate, then she went ahead and wore it anyway. Of course they wouldn't let her in. This is not a free speech issue, this is about her doing what the school told her not to do at a school function and her being upset about the results. Duh.

Paq

just about schools and dress codes here...most public schools with which i am familiar have some form of dress code normally involving phrases such as, 'nothing offensive, nothing obscene, nothing too short/showing a great deal of skin' etc.

now, what i am wondering is how the school officials knew the girl was planning to wear a confederate flag dress. next up, i don't think they should have told her 'not' to wear it as that opens the door for her to do exactly what she did..wear it against the rules, get large scale media attention, and make a statement......i have also never heard of a school dress code that prohibits political flags...then again, i do remember my highschool barring the confederate flag in question here from being larger than a patch on a tshirt. That was definitely a strange rule, but the school was close to 50/50 white/black.

about lincoln's slavery position: when lincoln and co walked into richmond, the only LEGAL slaves in the state belonged to his wife...

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Drayab

I don't think wearing the Confederate battle flag to the prom is good taste, but I think she should have been allowed to wear it if she wanted to. If she was told in advance that should wouldn't be allowed in with her crazy dress then she should have contested it before she got there, of course.

C'mon, if she wants to make a fool of herself with a racist symbol then let her. People need to grow some thicker skin. If we censor everything that could possibly offend anyone we are going to find ourselves in a very bland, boring country.

jonjon42

she was warned...that's all I gotta say. She knew the school would stop her and then instead of fighting then...decides to sue after she wears it....I say she is crying for attention.

second. That dress is FUGLY.....why someone would wear it I dunno

third. The flag has been adopted by various white supremicist groups and thus has become a racist symbol to an extent...Although I will admit not as much as the swastika...


just like the swastika
just like the Spanish holy week celebration costumes (look exactly like KKK garb)

(what sets apart the KKK cross is the whole burning thing..)

I'm not saying these things should be banned...actually as long as they just speak their bull and go home I have nothing wrong with them them spewing anti-whatever crap....as long as I'm on the other side of the street..

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alansmithee

The problem with saying she was warned is that that doesn't allow for a legal challenge. It isn't until a (potentially) unfair law is enforced that it can be challenged. If she didn't wear the dress, there could be no legal recourse.

And I think Lebell said it best earlier, there is no real difference between the cases. Everyone said that the teacher insulted the lesbian girl, but nobody mentioned that the principal hit the vehicle of the girl who was wearing the prom dress. If one is allowed, both should be. Personally, I think neither should be allowed, and that schools should have mroe rights in restricting what students can wear (and do), but that's not the issue. The issue is if the girl wanting to wear a confederate flag has a case, and I think based on the earlier settlement she probably does.

host

Lebell, I assumed that you were taking a stance that I fully support; "I may
not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to my death, your right to say
it." I did not intend to infer that you, personally, held a bias in favor of the
stars and bars flag.

This issue is about freedom of expression. I argued that there is a defense for
a school's administration setting limits to the manner of student dress and
conduct on school property and at school sponsored events.

I don't think that an adult wearing any flag or symbol in public, no matter
how offensive I personally find the flag or symbol to be, rises to the level of yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Since I am resistant to cede judgment of what is or isn't offensive, to any regulatory body, I am willing to
accept the inevitable fallout of living in a country where adults are free to
speak their minds and to express themselves peacefully. I believe that
the prohibitions in France and in Germany regarding the sale of Nazi paraphenalia and books, such as "Mein Kampf", are misguided and compromise
the right to truly free speech.

Laws designed to "protect" the American flag from being burned or worn as
clothing are also infringements on our bill of rights, and until now, the U.S.
Supreme Court has found such laws to be unconstitutional.

Adults are free to say what they will and to wear what they want. Citizens
who take offense are free, in each instance, to protest and to ostracize as
they see fit. Institutional behavior, such as the design of some southern state flags that contained the stars and bars of the old confederacy, was
changed by new attitudes that came about partly because of the migration
to the south of millions of Americans from other parts of the country who
were not steeped in the traditions of white "southern pride". This new influx
responded to those who found the stars and bars to be offensive, and elected legislatures who voted to eliminate this confederate icon from their
state flags. States that were defiant suffered consumer boycotts and unfavorable publicity. In the public domain, this is the constitutional way to
eliminate governmental policy that the majority finds to be offensive.

Justsomeguy

I'm sorry, but you are ignoring part of the problem. Why the hell did the school tell her she could not wear it? Do they have the right to tell you not to wear it? And what is the justification? Is it really because the flag is racists or just because the administration decided it is a racist symbol.

It's a really a big issue. I don't know how many of you were in high school recently, but the over-conservative administrations are becoming ridiculous. I had a label on a pair of my pants about a quarter of an inch in size(accidentally left it on the pants) when my school had a dress code against labels. I was initially suspended for it. I had friends that were reccommended by administration for expulsion for a video that expressed beliefs that were not entirely Christian in a school with Christian administration. So I think the issue of an power hungry administration that forces their beliefs on other people need to be addressed in this post.

Now, I'm fairly both sides in this situation. Alot of people the fly the confederate flag are not racists. But everyone knows that it's going to piss off alot of people. The girl should have just avoided controversy in this situation. However, she is a teenager, so what do you expect really? While this issue is an attack on rights, the girl probably needed to just use common sense.