Konichiwaneko

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/inter...=international

I'm putting this is the politics forum because of the general atmosphere we are in now. I'm very tolerant of religion I want to stress that, but this situation really makes me feel akward.

It's easily argueable to say "That is their way, and it's wrong for us to impose our beliefs upon them" but in this situation it just feels so wrong to me. The reason I'm saying this is because of our war. Do I think we should fight in the middle east because they are Muslim? Oh very much no. It's like saying lets kill someone because they are a different race.

Discuss with me people, about how you feel about this. I don't like taking freedoms away from others, but I can't tolerate taking someones life mostly in a situation like this. I've read articles upon articles before and after the war, but fo some reason this one gets to me.

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filtherton

Yeah, this is what can happen when you live in a theocracy.

KMA-628

The "mentally disabled" part doesn't bother me as much as this:
The reason I say this is because the "mental age" of someone can be very subjective. That part of the article could be included and enhanced to elicit more emotion, who knows. How does one "control a brothel" and be mentally disabled as well? Maybe I am not getting what "control a brothel" means.

Regardless of the mental state, I don't understand how this culture can continually beat/murder women for "crimes" like this.

And people want to complain about Christianity in America? If we had laws even half as bad as this most of us would be running for our lives.

Manx

Didn't Texas just do pretty much this same thing about a month ago?

guy44

No. Murder is the only capital crime in the States (well, and treason and desertion, but you know).

However, they did very recently execute an innocent man. Again.

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Manx

I was referring to the mentally disabled aspect of this story.

energus

This is bad, and I think that it would be hard for any religion to explain this without saying that it is wrong. Especially since this woman was sold and brutalised by men (I presume, cause pregnancy would be hard otherwise) from an early age onwards. I hope that those men are sentenced as well (but good chance they are not).

However on the point of sentencing minors as adults in the Netherlands a 16 year old was sentencend by adult laws this year (okay he shot and killed a teacher in the head, so there is a case to be made for that). And I have heard of stories like that happening in other countries as well. Even of people who are menatlly challenged/handicapped (is that pc or just bogus?)

Unfortunatly this case does not stand on its own, what makes it awfull is the fact that she is being executed for reasons I see as disgusting. That what makes me sick. The strong should always take care of the weak, whether as a family or a society. And this is just plain wrong

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Somnia, terrores magicos, miracula, sagas,
Nocturnus lemures, portentaque.
Horace

tecoyah

This does have a Texas ring to it..........and I was disgusted by that incident as well.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Mephisto2

You know what's depressing?

The hypocracy of this thread when the United States is one of the few countries in the world that also regularly executes those with mental illness.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...id=782&scid=66


Mr Mephisto

Jadedfox

That's a great point. It's sad really.

--jaded

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There is no fucking you, there is only me.

powerclown

Since when are 'acts of chastity' comparable to murder? That girl didn't harm anyone, she herself was the victim. The Texas case (If we're talking about Patterson) was an admitted double murder. The linked mentally ill cases were all murder cases ('2 people murdered', '5 people murdered', 'stabbed a person to death'). Apples and oranges, no moral equivalent here whatsoever.I think its safe to say Human Rights ain't a big priority in that neck of the woods. Look for Iran to head up the UN Human Rights Commission very soon.

vox_rox

In this case, it is not about whether or not we believe in their religion, or their politcs. It comes down to basic human rights. In this case, they are being denied, and that is what is wrong.

At the risk of actually sounding politically incorrect, Islamic Republics, even "moderate" ones, tend to ingnore the rights and needs of women in their society, and the more extreme they lean, the more atrocious the intolerance towards them.

There are exactly ZERO circimstances in this story that warrant punishment of this person, never mind repeated floggings and a death sentence.

I continue to hear people say how Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is a belief of love and respect, yet after reading several parts of the Koran, and after reading about continued mistreatment of Women and others who are marginalized in those societies, I have severe doubts that anything I hear about Islam can be taken at face value.

I lnow this will not be a poplular post, and I can see the PC police coming down on me very hard for this, but I continue to see Islam subjugating those who are not male and not in power, and this has become an established pattern.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it all seems bad to me. If they were peaceful and respectful, maybe they would not be allowed to SELL their duaghters into prostitution. Did the father of the girl get punished for his role in this. Ha! Did the 55 year-old man who eventually "bought" her face and charges or punishment? Pah-leeese!

It's all wrong, period.

Peace,

Pierre

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There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
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stevo

Getting the mullahs overthrown in Iran would not be taking the iranians freedoms away. It would be helping the iranain people get their freedom, i.e. liberation.

KMA-628

While I am not to keen on the execution of the mentally disabled (I haven't really made my mind up either way), it should be noted (again) that the testing processes used are not necessarily all-inclusive.

A few of the cases mentioned above had a lot of controversy regarding whether or not the person was mentally disabled.

If you think about it, it is a pretty good defense, easy to set up and hard to prove.

From what I read about it, having execution on the table at sentencing had to do whether or not the person knew what they were doing was wrong. The "mental age" wasn't as big an issue as the ability to tell right from wrong.

and...

I would rather have the problem we have regarding executions and "mentally disabled" persons, than to support the country that does this (and worse) to women on a pretty much everyday basis.

While both are bad, ours happens very, very rarely.

This happens (and things like it) in some Muslim countries regularly.

KMA-628

I came to the same conclusion after reading some parts of the Koran.

I remember sitting there, reading how the punishment/torture/murder of "infidels" is not just acceptable, but condoned. I seem to remember one passage that went into detail about how these acts could be done.

After reading it, I sat there and thought, "what part of this is peaceful?"

Konichiwaneko

The definitiation of peace though is what's defined by that current culture. What is "Peace" to us is what we believe it to be, while what is "Peace" to others is what they define it to be. In the teachings of the Koran, if Peace and Normality is defined by removing the basic rights of female. and all lax death sentences they yes they are a people of "Peace".

As mentioned before though by another member, I too feel that this goes beyond politics and religion.

You guys did a great point in showing that all countries are affected by this situation, fortunately in that we were able to start discussion on the matter. I've notice though that this girls been in trouble for at least a decade and she keeps on getting in trouble and her parents kept on selling her back. In the US, though I don't support it, woudln't of defax stepped in by the time the first babies were born over a decade ago?

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KMA-628

I don't see how this is the case.

By admission, their own political structure is defined by the Koran.
Their values/ethics/mores are defined by the Koran.
Theri judicial system is defined by the Koran.

The heinous acts they commit against their own people (and others) are justifiable, to them, through the Koran.

If pretty much every aspect of their political and judicial structure revolves around the Koran, than how could it go beyond religion? What else is there?

/not trying to start a war on this topic, but I just don't see this point.....(probably never will since I don't understand the culture either)

Konichiwaneko

Kma we agree, I worded that wrong.

I believe that it's not religiously or politically justifiable and that it's wrong on a scale of individual human rights.

I appologize

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KMA-628

no need to apologize, I just thought you were saying that there were other factors involved and I just wasn't seeing it.

Pacifier

"parts" of it?
Reading parts of the Bilbe can also give you a rather strange Point of view
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." (Lukas 19,27)

It is not the Bible or Koran alone, it is the people who interpret those books. There are assholes who interpret the Bible in a strange way and there are assholes who interpret the Koran in a strange way. Sadly those are in Power

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

KMA-628

edit: didn't read the beginning of the post

What I meant by "parts" of it is that I didn't read the whole thing, just a few books.

I see your point about the excerpt, but it really isn't apples to apples. Especially when you take large sections of the Koran.

I will see if I can find the part I read and get back to you so you can see what I meant.

KMA-628

Pacifier -

Reading it again, the Koran is very bulleted. It seems to go point to point to point with little flow (might be because of the trasnlation)--at least most of what I read did this, some of the later Suras weren't as bulleted.

So, you can take excerpts from it as each bullet is individual, unlike the passage you quoted which is just one small quote from the "Parable of the Mina"--16 verses long.

Specifically:

Sura 4, more towards the end
Sura 8, more in the beginning
etc.

Anyway, that is really not the point here.

These atrocities are commonly committed in Muslim states. Reasoning for these actions is taken from the Koran. Obviously, there has to be something there if so many millions of Muslims are believing that this is the correct way to behave. Either that or you have mass brain-washing and people are being taught and believing something that isn't real.

Locobot

I support the death penalty only in in the most extreme attacks on civilized life: McVeigh, Malvo, Peterson, Bundy etc. I can even think of hypothetical instances where a person who is considered mentally handicapped should be executed. Culpability must be proved.

Obviously the case at hand does not fit the criteria in any sense. I think even the most staunch cultural relativist would have their beliefs shaken by this case.

What can actually be done though? We already have restrictive economic sanctions against Iran. Let's also remember that there are a great number of moderate Iranians who find this just as appalling as we do and who are just as powerless to do anything about it.

The source of the Mullah's power is religion. The best way I can think of to sap that power is if people stop recognizing them as religious authorities. Can anyone think of a way the Western world could do this with out manufacturing jihad?

martinguerre

how the hell am i supposed to sleep tonight?

that's the coldest thing i've heard in a long time...

i hope whatever we got from the Shah before the revolution was worth fueling a theocracy that could do something like this. that said...righteous indignation just doesn't cut it. this is just too damn cold for words.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

energus

I agree with Pacifier. When it comes to religion it is the way you interpret the writings and usually they are used for bettering oneself. There are several writings in the Bible I find more than dubious/suspicious. And I am thankfull that thay are not used as they are written.

However I always had the notion that every religion says to take care of the weak and that what makes this so weird. This woman was abused by her family (sold as (sex)slave)) as well as the system. If this girl's story is true than the real culprits are the men who sold and abused her. Trial them, punish them, but I guess being male clears you of wrong doings in certain countries

As for the underage thing. There are moments that someone can (and should) be tried as an adult. However when it happens I always wonder if a child that has not done a crime can go to court and ask to have adult privaliges (i.e. voting, smoking, drinking etc) cause if the law can go one way why not the other. I guess what my point is why can young adults only be on the wrong side of the system and not the beneficial side of it?

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Somnia, terrores magicos, miracula, sagas,
Nocturnus lemures, portentaque.
Horace

Konichiwaneko

here's another article that mentions this

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15825.shtml

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smicer

Mindboggling!!! Every post that sheds a negative light on a country other than the U.S. is immediately reverted to point the finger back at the U.S.

The anger and hatred and is truly mindboggling.

Anomaly_

Islamic republics? As in plural? The only one I know of is Turkey, and that is precisely the problem. I do agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post and there is no reason to apologize for the backwardness of another culture. All cultures are not beautiful (including ours, to much a lesser degree). Although I rarely agree with a certain Michael Savage, he does make a point in criticizing Islam for not having gone through a major reform movement. I loathe Christianity and Judaism too, but at least their more popular sects do not hearken back to primitive man's sense of justice. This girl, mentally disabled or not, has been brutalized her entire life and needs the exact of opposite what she is receiving.

sob

Now someone else has posted my sentiments from an earlier post, in which I suggested a search among some of our members for

1. Anything favorable they've ever said about the US, or
2. Anything bad they've ever said about terrorists.

Good luck.

pedro padilla

US has great pizza. Good beer. BBQ is incredible. Make good films also.
Terrorists. bad!

2 for 2.

jonjon42

I have read the Qur'an. and even did an exercise comparing different translations. I found that the translation read has alot to do with the interpretation of the book. I found overall a positive message much like overall I find the bible a positive message. Yes, both have disturbing parts in them and parts that could mean several million things. These "fundamentalists" take the book twist it to their bidding and give it to the poor uneducated masses. This is the result of that is evident.

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A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

martinguerre

sob-

I think the US is a great country. Such a great one, that i think it shouldn't be hanging out with Iran as one of the few nations left on Earth that supports the execution of minors.

Why keep company with those kind of folks?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Mephisto2

I think you missunderstand me.

I do not condone what is happening in Iran. Far from it. However, I don't like finger-pointing and accusations that could easily, and justifiably, be reversed.

I am not angry at America. Nor do I do hate America. I have gone on record, several times, stating that I respect and laud America over most countries. But when I am accused of hatred and anger, either directly or tangentially, then I feel obliged to respond.

What has happened, what continues to happen, in Iran is despicable. My feelings on the death penalty, no matter where it is manifested, are also on record.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

If those questions are rhetorically aimed at myself, then I can easily refute the implied criticism.

I have consistently and repeatedly condemned all terrorists; be they Iraqi, Palestinian, Irish, American, Sudanese, Chechen or any other nationality.

I also have had a great deal of positive things to say about America. I think you may be confusing criticism of the Bush Administration (for which I make no apology) for criticism of America and American ideals, which I sometimes criticise but more often praise.

Do you want me to do the search for you?


Mr Mephisto

Manx

While you're at it, run a search for:

1. Anything negative you've said about the US which is not directed at a Democrat/Liberal or their policies (i.e. Clinton is the devil doesn't count).
2. Anyting positive you've said about Muslims or the Arab world in general.

Good luck.

energus

I agree with Mr. Mephisto. I do not hate the Americans or America, I doubt certain political views the current administration has as well as the death penalty. Furthermore I doubt the political views of almost every politician most of the time (some mor than others including the ones I vote for). That is called thinking for oneself.

As for terrorism, I have no good word for that, ever. However if you (as a country) try to police the globe and point at faults others have, beware of a ricochet effect. For example the death penalty in certain cases in certain staes in the USA are (in my humble opinion) wrong, not "wronger" than in Iran, but hust as wrong.

Furthermore people say that countries should have a stricty divide between church and state, I fully agree. However I sometimes get the impression that the USA does not do that as well as they say others should. Terms as the Bible belt states, the use of religion in election and the obvious influences of religion on certain politicians and their policies make me ill. And again i must restate it also makes me ill to see it in my own country when it happens.

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Somnia, terrores magicos, miracula, sagas,
Nocturnus lemures, portentaque.
Horace