sob

Are you sure it isn't Andre 3000, or 50 Cent?

Seriously, we're all well aware that terrorists aren't limited to one country. Richard Reid is British.


I'm having trouble following your line of reasoning for singling out these other groups. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know why that would be equally appropriate.

Especially after reading the following:

“They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper … Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (Jews) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.” (Sura IV.89)

“Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.” (Sura IX. 5-6)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

sob

No, it's not just you. There is no shortage of people who blame George Bush for troop deaths in Iraq, although he hasn't been observed setting any roadside bombs.

Kadath

Hooray! Quotes from a religious text, taken out of context, as evidence that the religion itself is violent. I love you. The Old Testament is, of course, completely empty of this sort of thing.

Flipping to a random page in Deuteronomy...

"Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree." (Deuteronomy 12:2)

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it's quiet in here

Mojo_PeiPei

So you are saying the Jews are crazy, right?

Cause in all seriousness, if you are trying to quote the old testament as a means of pegging Christianity, you are just really ignorant in how the texts relate and what their place is between Judaism and Christianity. Christianity is based of the new testament, Jesus is the new covenant, in most senses the old testament minus the 10 commandments & Abraham (as the first covenant) really doesn't have any bearing on Christianity.

__________________
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Tarl Cabot

That explains why so many Jews and Christians encourage their children to be suicide bombers.

OFKU0

I'll let you clarify this statement before I classify it a racist.

__________________
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powerclown

It's interesting how you avoid the reality of the situation. Each and every time there is an act of terrorism somewhere in the world, a certain group always seems to show up and claim responsibility. Over. And over. And over again. How many times does this particular group have to kill people before you'll hold them accountable?

Or, are you saying phantoms flew those planes into the WTCs? Are you saying that the democratically elected Afghan Government replaced a coven of Witches in black robes? Are you referring to the killing of Theo Van Gogh as the work of Jack the Ripper? Was an elementary school of teachers and children recently massacred by a band of marauding cave trolls? Was it Lex Luthor who planted 10 train bombs in Spain and killed almost 200 people? Was it Masai warriors from Kenya who blew up Paddy's Bar in Bali, killing over 200 people, mostly young Australians? Do you blame the IRA for blowing up a Hilton Hotel Resort in Egypt killing over 40 vacationing civilians? Please...open your eyes.

Ustwo

You know, when white males start to hijack planes, murder school children, blow up pizza parlors, blow up busses, blow up nightclubs, and behead civilians in an organized terrorism effort, I'll be the first to volunteer to be searched before I get on an aircraft, and I would damn well hope they search the white guy sitting next to me too.

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Manx

Powerclown - which group are you talking about?

The group of 1.2 billion Muslims? Or the group of 300 million Arabs?

Which one of those groups was responsible for 9/11?

powerclown

That would be: Neither.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by providing you with the answer, because, based on your question, I believe you already know it.

Manx

But we are talking about profiling one of those two groups.

We're not talking about profiling terrorists, because we can't actually identify them by appearence. So the suggestion is that it is an acceptable negative to profile the 1.2 bilion Muslims or the over 300 million Arabs in order to identify the .00001 percent of those groups who are criminals.

I still do not see why we think there is going to be a positive result in implementing such a tactic when we won't even discuss the profiling of the 20 - 40 million white males aged 40 - 60 in this country who are more likely to steal billions and billions of dollars from innocent, naive people.

Why is it not an acceptable negative to profile that group? Less people are negatively impacted and more results are likely (simply due to the higher degree of white collar crime vs. terrorist attacks).

Let's start with Ustwo.

OFKU0

I think everyone should be searched regardless. It would make everyone safe and grind the economy to a halt. Something has to give.

As for 'groups of people that are related racially to those with the propensity for violence,'... didn't know some groups of people were more naturally disposed to violence then others.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Locobot

o boy o boy another promise from from ustwo!

hijack planes
http://www.who2.com/dbcooper.html

murder school children
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...russia.school/

blow up pizza parlours etc.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1201738.stm

behead civilians in an organized terrorism effort
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/french/french.html


You might consider investing in some velcro ustwo because...wait a second you wouldn't voluntarily submit to a search before you get on a plane? If that's the case then no, you shouldn't be allowed to fly. This seems the source of the complaints here: white people feeling that they're unfairly being inconvenienced by anti-terrorism efforts.

inkriminator

The problem I have with this kind of "profiling" is that I cannot see how it would work. If we are looking for religious identity, there is no definite clue to say what religion someone is. They can shave their beard, change their name or put a yarmulke on. The profiling could be modified to target certain countries, but we have seen that terrorism is not a phenomenon limited to any country. I see no effective profiling policy that could be implemented.

I agree with the sentiment of MrSelfDestruct:
By beefing up the screenings for everyone, everyone is safer. This would definitely raise the costs of Airport security, but it could be no more than the amount that 9/11 has cost.

Kadath

Well, if we're going to get in a religious debate, then I'd say that picking a choosing what you want from a religious text is fine, but then you can't assume the Muslims are embracing the violence. Second, yes, I guess I am asking why we don't hate Judaism and assume all Jews are going to try and kill us, and third, the DAY all the hateful and hypocritical Christians stop quoting Leviticus as a reason God hates fags I will buy your complete and total bullshit about the separation of the testaments. My point, sir, is that people are evil. Religions can not be so.

Tarl Calbot: See the last two sentences.

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sob

Once again, you win an argument that no one made.

Some of us would prefer that everyone be sujected to adequate security procedures before boarding a plane, as opposed to giving Muslims a free pass if more than three of them are on the same flight.

But didn't you request that this thread be locked? What happened?

stevo

I think you missed the part when ustwo said "in an organized terrorist effort" none of these events are even closely related, execpt the part with the beslan terrorists, that seems to be ustwo's point...something about islamic terrorists.

Anyway, I don't have a big problem being searched getting on an aircraft, but it makes more sense, since time is not unlimited when you are trying to catch a plane and the resources needed to search individuals is scarce, that they spend most of the time and money on searching those that pose the greatest threat. It just seems to make sense to me.

roachboy

these screening procedures are not about providing a greater degree of security.
they are about ratcheting up the sense of being under seige
they are about providing the illusion of safety
they are about the appearance of action
they are about materially drawing a line that seperates muslims from other people
they are about generating a level of social approval for the drawing of this line that seperates muslims from other people.
they are about creating a self-confirming situation with reference to this group which is now inside and outside the community, everywhere and nowhere
they are the quintessence of bushworld.
they are about grounding racism in a version of "common sense"

it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that the premises of an argument about possible security measures is transformed fundamentally when that argument passes into law.
the effects of the law are seperate from arguments that might have prompted the law.
i might in principle understand that, at a certain low-wattage level, some kind of institutional response might be a good idea to allay anxiety but certainly not to prevent another attack in any meaningful way.
but i would and do oppose the translation of this argument into law.

bushworld requires an enemy. most parallel versions os this kind of regime have also required an enemy. the symbolic function of that enemy is not what the laws promulgated "intended" if you follow the text of the laws, that is. the social function of these laws lay elsewhere. it did not matter, then or now, that the definitions that underpinned the laws were incoherent. it did not matter that that incoherence was central to their social function.

what did matter was that lots of people were willing to not only submit to the legal situation without question, but that they internalized teh social effects, collapsed them into the law itself, refused to think about either.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Locobot

This isn't even the policy that you just quoted, nor is this policy to be found in any official DOT guideline. It seems to exist solely as a fabrication of right-wing "news" outlets. It is based on the testimony of one Michael Smerconish, an attorney and radio talk show host from Philadelphia who heard it from Southwest airlines executive Herb Kelleher who supposedly heard this in a discussion with Norm Mineta. So the allegations are hearsay. Hearsay is legal jargon refering to "Statements by A witness who did not see or hear the incident in question but heard about it from someone else. Hearsay is usually not admissible as evidence in court."

Why hasn't Herb Kelleher made these allegations himself? Is he afraid he might perjure himself in doing so?

I support adequate security measures myself but...
I did, but I didn't follow the proper protocol with my request so it was denied. Further requests were censored.

stevo

Well, next time a flight departing a US airport is hijacked and slamms into a building you can go on about how it doesn't work. But you wouldn't want that to happen, would you?

roachboy

have you actually been through airport security checks?
do you think they would really prevent anything?
such arrangements might work if there was prior warning--which would doubtless also result in marshall law in the us--which i assume you would be fine with.
but no small group is going to work like that.
these arrangements will not prevent anything more than those which were in place before 9/11...they are theater.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

powerclown

This same group of fringe fundamentalists has been using terrorism as a social weapon way, way before Bush was President. The problem has nothing to do with Bush. Take a look at sob's History Lesson, above, for clarification. It's about dealing with reality, not fabricating phantoms. It's perfectly logical to screen for certain nationalities in light of actual history. Is it a pleasant situation? Not particularly. Is it politically correct? Maybe not. Is it an attempt to deal with the matter head-on? I believe so.

Willravel

Hey that's a great way to make fun of my spelling!
Just to clarify; "ludicrous". There, I looked it up.

There was never any proof that the terrorists on the planes that struck on 9/11 (obviously one of the main reasons for this) were middle eastern.

I appreciate that you are up to date on the Koran. As a matter of fact, I respect all people who have a good knowledge of all religions. HOWEVER, I do not know what these quotes have to do with racial profiling.

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. *Such evil must be purged from Israel."* (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.* In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.* If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.* Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.* Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.* That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.* Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.* Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.* He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.* "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.""* (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.* Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.* You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.* And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."* (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.* When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death." *(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants."* (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Bottom line? You can quote scripture until you're blue in the face. How many christians do you know that follow what I quoted above? Do you think every town that doesn't have a christian is attacked by the christians?

I see the parties I listed (Gentiles, albinos, ninjas, and children) as being just as foolish to discriminate against as the Muslims. They are equally appropriate because they are all absurd. I hope that clears it up for you.

Locobot

stevo22, are you actually telling us that you don't consider the Irish Republican Army or the Reign of Terror to be organized terrorist efforts? Please explain your reasoning because those allegations are beyond my understanding.

I will admit there is no evidence that DB Cooper operated at the behest of any terrorist organization. It's unacceptable to me though to design a security system that isn't vigilant of possible "lone wolf" threats.

Re: Beslan--It's unfair to ustwo to infer that he wasn't looking for examples of terrorism from that (muslim) type of white person.

roachboy

powerclown:
sob's list had nothing to do with history.
it was more a david duke-style list focussed on abritrary features that functioned solely to reinforce a racist disposition: no context, no real information, no explanation, no interpretation: just factoids strung together to "demonstrate" non-argument. that is not history. that is what we in the trade refer to as bullshit.

if you want to deal with matters straight on, and not create phantoms, you might start by yourself looking at that list and wondering, for a minute, if anything really connects the various incidents he adduces: each had a sperate situation behind/around it, from the israeli/palestinan conflict to the rise of early variants of "fundamentalism" in egypt to the war on afghanistan (there are others)--you might wonder how, if you strip the racist veneer away for a minute, you could really connect these incidents. of course, racism works this way too often: simplification, the creation of false linakges, the motoring of otherwise absurd arguments...
but you would have to be an idiot to imagine that the explanatory feature in any of it was the fact that the folk who carried it out were muslim men between 17 and 40.

if you want to look at things straight on and not be caught in the play of fantasies, maybe start by not lumping all muslims together.
you might start by trying to maybe even think about the causes for various "terrorist" acts...
you might wonder how these causes could be eliminated, and how it is that the process of eliminating causes, which seems a rational response, squares with the erecting of the whole bushworld-specific pseudo-security apparatus.
you might wonder what exactly a terrorist is.

as for the quintessence of bushworld remark:
i think your attempt to project dynamics particular to this period in the us onto other situations is simply wrongheaded. the manipulation of fear and the erecting of pseudo-reponses is fundamental to how the bush administration has acted since 9/11/2001....it was one of the central elements in the last campaign...it is basic to the entire bush/rove m.o. i do not see who you can argue against that. nor do i see what function you imagine blaming the phantom "enemy" for it serves. maybe you could explain?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

stevo

Well, when willravel crosses over from the paranoia board to tell us about 9/11, thats it, I'm out.

powerclown

Very well, then.
For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge reality. How can there be a rational discussion with one who won't acknowledge reality?

Perhaps you would prefer to discuss the mating rituals of Green Dragons, then?

Locobot

There is nothing in Roachboy's posts here that indicates he won't "acknowledge reality." Instead I see you trying to engage his rather insightful perception of the situation with racist pablum.

roachboy

um...if you read the rest of the reasons i listed to refer to it as other than history, maybe a real conversation could ensue.
the critique is substantive, but you will not engage with it. show me where the explanation is that does not resort to the most idiotic of criteria. show me where the context in sob's post is. the detail. there isnt any. it is not history--it is a list of factoids adduced to provide the illusion of explanation. it is racist drivel. what does that mean for you, if you find it compelling?
your choice.

it makes little sense to end an evasion of an argument with a patronizing comment--- but again, your choice. if i remember correctly, you do not seem to see any problems with the israeli occupation of the west bank either. so maybe there is nothing to talk about on this kind of matter. i dont know.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Aren't remarks like this ban-worthy? I never took a shot at you. I strongly suggest you check the history of my posts so that you will understand that I post on Politics much more than I post on Paranoia. ALSO, I still stand by my open minded posts on Paranoia. You may choose to ignore my posts if you want, but let's not try to act like we're superior.

Locobot

I'll take your inability to answer as a consession of defeat. There are no members here who deserve kneejerk dismissal based on their user name alone. The discussion will enriched by your absence.

powerclown

That's not too helpful Locobot.
So, you too, are of the school that says there is no problem with terrorism in the islamic fundamentalist community? The Arab World is in no need of reform, humans of middle eastern descent had nothing to do with 9/11, and this is all Bush's fault. Wonderful.

What is the point in continuing if the central issues continues to be ignored?

I would be glad to if it weren't overwhelmingly muslim extremists engaging in the terrorism we see in the world today. It isn't the Irish, it isn't the Spanish, it isn't the Japanese, it isn't the Swedish, it isn't the Samoans, it isn't the Indians, it isn't the Mexicans, it isn't the South Africans, it isn't the Cubans. It is MUSLIM fundamentalists mostly from the Middle East. Referring to actual occurences in the past as 'not history', 'illusion', 'factoids' and 'racist drivel' is a fundamental denial of reality. It is an argument in a vacuum, leading only to further confusion and illogic.

Locobot

These are all your fabrications. I agree with none of the above statements. It's amazing to me that you're willing to accuse someone of denying reality and simutaneously deny the reality of what has and has not posted in the same thread in the same post! Bravo! You've succeeded in an exercise of absurdity.

powerclown

I think this all speaks for itself.
I look forward to this thread regaining a semblance of rationality before I proceed any further.

crossova

I believe it is racial discrimination but at the same time it is being done to protect others. i am a muslim male (of african-american)...I do not get scrutinized by the TSA unless they view my plane ticket and see my name. It is bothersome but at the same time i know they are doing their job and that they've been told to look more towards Arabs than 'white boys' (as it was so politely put in the thread above).

If we are going to make a list about events where people of a specific race/religion killed mass amounts of people then we should continue on with that list.

History Test {continued...}


For more than 400 years which group kidnapped, bought & sold Africans in the "new world?
a. "white boys"
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the mid '90s what group of people shot up their school in Colorado?
a. "white boys"
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the mid '90s, what group of people blew up a federal building in Oklahoma city?
a. "white boys"
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

What person was responsible for mailing explosive packages at random to unknowing US citizens?
a. Unabomber (who is a white male)
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the colonial period what group of people were responsible for the manipulation,slaughter, and removal of Native Americans from their land?
a. White Settlers
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

*some call them freedom fighters or fore fathers and others call them terrorist...*

Just showing you that not every evil act of terrorism is from those of Arab decent or from Islamic faith... every race/culture is not perfect and everyone should be screened and viewed the same when boarding flights/trains/buses or whatever.

Hell, i have to go through a metal detector at the movie theater by my house in new york. As a muslim I am upset to see innocent muslims being killed overseas "by accident" and I am also upset to see these extremists take their own spin on our religion and use it to cause harm to others. In the end, nobody wins and the cycle of violence continues until either non-extremist muslims step up and try to pull the extremist's coattails and tell them that killing men,women,children is not how you spread the message of islam.

crossova

I still have a hard time believing that all the events of 9/11 were done and orchestrated by those few terrorist. I believe they were involved to a certain extent but there has to be some underlying proof as to what hit the pentagon....there was not plane wreckage outside of the building. the whole was too small for a jet liner of the size they say went into the building. FBI agents were seen removing security tapes from neighboring businesses that had cameras that were angled towards the scene of the crime.

As for the Arab World in need of reform. I think the US should leave those Arab countries alone. They do not like our country and they constantly let us and the rest of the world know their despise for us. Why? Oh maybe because America is aiding in Israel's (the arab world's most hated country) fight against Palestine.

Willravel

There is reform necessary in certian areas of the middle east, I suppose. It's really sad that they think they have to resort to terrorism in order to try to protect themselves and their ideals (it's anyones guess whether they need to or not, and that's another conversation). I wish we could all sit at a big table with everyone over some Budwisers and just work the whole thing out. That's not the way it works though. I think that Locobot, like any one else, has a problem with any terrorists, not just Muslim ones. I had a problem with the Muir Building being demolished by domestic terrorists just as much as I had a problem with Muslim fundamentalists attacking us. The problem is that I don't see a huge difference between the two groups. Let's compare:

Muslim fundementalists: Faith or political based belief system that allows massive attacks on innocent civilians that they believe are their enemies.
Oklahoma City bombers: Faith or political based belief system that allows massive attacks on innocent civilians that they believe are their enemies.

Muslim fundamentalists: Used public and american transpostation (American Airlines, TWA, etc.) to inflict their destruction.
Oklahoma City bombers:Used public and american transpostation (rented truck) to inflict their destruction.

Muslim fundamentalists: There are more of them.
Oklahoma City bombers: There are more of them.

Muslim fundamentalists: Part of a larger community that is being blamed for the mistakes of the few.
Oklahoma City bombers: Part of a larger community that is not being blamed for the mistakes of the few.

I hope that was helpful.

Edit: I just read the posts by nova. Nova: I totally agree with you 110%. But. Be careful going off about the 9/11 stuff. As we just saw, some people (like stevo, for example) get very angry about the possibilities surrounding the 9/11 attacks. People have a hard time accepting the mear possibility that we weren't told the whole truth. The reality is that we may never find out with absolute certianty what happened. Just giving you fair warning.

crossova

^^^ i do agree with you that reform is necessary in parts of the middle east. i am greatly concerned about Afghanistan and how parts of their economy relies on harvesting/selling Opium. I am not highly educated in biology/chemistry but what other properties besides being a recreational drug does Opium have? if there is not any other known use for it besides to get high then those Muslims who are working in that business should not be doing things like that.

Manx

Indeed. This is obvious when you look at what "actions" have been taken:

- No nail clippers.
- Buy extra duct tape

A pen is sharper and mightier than nail clippers. Pens are not only acceptable, but regularly provided on international flights. It only takes the threat of a pen to the jugular to hijack a plane.

I read about this tactic and others in my farmers alamanac.... which I took out of the library along with a copy of Catcher In The Rye.

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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