"U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ballzor · 12-10-2004, 12:44 PM

U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen

I have a feeling that many of you thought exactly what I did when first reading the headline for this article.

"Previous military court hearings have heard that several troops had fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City. Soldiers from the same battalion arrived on the scene to find a burning truck and casualties around it.

According to accounts given by witnesses at previous hearings, the soldiers, including Horne, tried to rescue an Iraqi casualty from inside the vehicle. The victim had severe abdominal wounds and burns and was thought by several of the witnesses to be beyond medical help.

The criminal investigator had said that the U.S. soldiers had decided that ``the best course of action was to put (the victim) out of his misery.''"

The Title really says it all doesn't it.

Coppertop · 12-10-2004, 12:50 PM

While the title is true, the actual story isn't what most would think of immediately I would imagine.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-10-2004, 12:55 PM

Maybe we should start cropping all these American killing Iraqi posts...

powerclown · 12-10-2004, 12:57 PM

"A Taste of Armageddon" is one of classic Trek's occasional, obvious metaphors for the absurdity of the then-cold war between East and West. Gene Lyons stars as a Federation ambassador named Fox, who boards the Enterprise to reach the planet Eminiar VII, where he hopes to negotiate a peace treaty with the inhabitants. Instead the crew of the Enterprise gets caught in the middle of an interplanetary war between Eminiar and neighboring planet Vendikar. The twist is that the war is being fought on computers, and compliant residents of those "destroyed" areas obediently report to disintegration chambers, where their "virtual" death is made literal.

When the Enterprise is "hit" in one of these simulations, both the warlords of Eminiar VII and Ambassador Fox fully expect Capt. Kirk and crew to report to the disintegration center. The feisty Kirk has other plans, of course. And while the madness of this controlled Armageddon makes a suitably surreal satire of the arms race in the 1960s, the story also evoked the endless, daily reports of body counts during the Vietnam War, with no resolution in sight. Aside from its parable aspect, however, the episode gave Kirk one of his earliest and most compelling scenes of Kirkian preachiness in a bold monologue about peace, reportedly written and rewritten numerous times by series producer and indispensable creative hand Gene L. Coon.

Lebell · 12-10-2004, 03:32 PM

Isn't it one of life's strange coincidences that I just watched that very Star Trek episode about 2 hours ago...and I really don't see the connection to this situation.

powerclown · 12-10-2004, 10:22 PM

OFKU0 · 12-11-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Maybe we should start cropping all these American killing Iraqi posts...

Now that wouldn't be very democratic and we all know non-democratic entities are terroristic in every sense of the word.

edit; I certainly hope an Iraqi doesn't see a badly injured American and put him out of his misery. Of course it's apples and oranges.

Kadath · 12-13-2004, 07:40 AM

This is by far the most confusing thread I have ever seen here. Mojo_PeiPei says we shouldn't have threads about soldiers killing Iraqi civilians, powerclown says this is like a Star Trek episode, Lebell disagrees, powerclown calls him a troll? I am totally lost. I am so bewildered I have forgotten to think about the issue.

Also, I thought the policy was to post the article as well as the link?

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. soldier pleaded guilty at his court-martial Friday to killing a severely wounded 16-year-old Iraqi male during fierce fighting in Baghdad's impoverished Sadr City neighborhood, the military said.

Staff Sgt. Johnny M. Horne Jr., 30, of Winston-Salem, N.C., was among several soldiers who had found the wounded teenager on Aug. 18 in a burning truck with severe abdominal wounds sustained during the clashes. A criminal investigator had said during an earlier hearing that the soldiers decided to kill him to ``put him out of his misery.''

Sadr City was the scene of wild clashes earlier this year between coalition forces and Shiite rebels allied to firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, a loud opponent of the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq.

In a plea bargain, Horne, a member of Company C, 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment, from Fort Riley, Kan., pleaded guilty to one count of unpremeditated murder and one count of soliciting another soldier to commit unpremeditated murder. The charges are under Articles 118 and 81 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

``The convictions stemmed from Staff Sgt. Horne's murder of a severely wounded Iraqi civilian in Baghdad's Sadr City district,'' a military statement said.

Lt. Col. James Hutton, a military spokesman, said Horne had originally been charged with the more serious offenses of premeditated murder, conspiracy to commit premeditated murder and solicitation of another soldier to commit premeditated murder.

``He decided to plead guilty to the lesser charges presented to him,'' Hutton said.

Hutton said Horne was expected to be sentenced later Friday.

Horne is one of six Fort Riley soldiers charged with killings in recent months - two for slayings in Kansas and four for deaths in Iraq. Staff Sgt. Cardenas J. Alban, 29, of Inglewood, Calif., was charged along with Horne in the teenager's killing and is awaiting a court-martial hearing.

Previous military court hearings have heard that several troops had fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City. Soldiers from the same battalion arrived on the scene to find a burning truck and casualties around it.

According to accounts given by witnesses at previous hearings, the soldiers, including Horne, tried to rescue an Iraqi casualty from inside the vehicle. The victim had severe abdominal wounds and burns and was thought by several of the witnesses to be beyond medical help.

The criminal investigator had said that the U.S. soldiers had decided that ``the best course of action was to put (the victim) out of his misery.''

Another military hearing into a soldier charged with killing another Iraqi in a separate August incident in Sadr City is expected to continue Friday.

Sgt. Michael P. Williams, 25, of Memphis, Tenn., faced the opening day of an Article 32 hearing Thursday charged with premeditated murder, obstruction of justice and making a false official statement.

Two witnesses gave evidence during the Article 32 hearing, which is the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing.

Williams is charged in the same case along with Spc. Brent May, 22, of Salem, Ohio, who faced a two-day hearing this week and is awaiting a ruling on whether he will be court-martialed, receive a lesser penalty or be acquitted.

Six members of his unit, Company C, 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment, from Fort Riley, testified in his case.

Earlier this week in Germany, a U.S. tank company commander accused of killing a critically injured Iraqi driver for al-Sadr was ordered court-martialed.

Capt. Rogelio Maynulet, 29, of Chicago, will be tried on charges of assault with intent to commit murder and dereliction of duty, which carry a maximum combined sentence of 20 1/2 years, said military spokesman Maj. Michael Indovina.

During Maynulet's Article 32 hearing, witnesses testified that the driver had been shot in the head when Maynulet saw him. A fellow officer said Maynulet told him he then shot the man out of compassion.

ObieX · 12-13-2004, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Horne is one of six Fort Riley soldiers charged with killings in recent months - two for slayings in Kansas and four for deaths in Iraq. Staff Sgt. Cardenas J. Alban, 29, of Inglewood, Calif., was charged along with Horne in the teenager's killing and is awaiting a court-martial hearing.

Woa woa, hold on, back the truck up! *beep beep beep* (lol i hate when people say that

)

What the hell is this part? ---> "two for slayings in Kansas" How did i miss this? What happened here? Who was getting killed in our country by our troops, and why?

Anyone know anything about this?

powerclown · 12-13-2004, 09:07 AM

For the record, I wasn't calling Lebell just a troll. I was calling him an Ugly Cave Troll. WAIT! Just kidding.

Come on now: "U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen" is really over the top. The Star Trek nonsense was in reference to an episode were 2 combatants fight their 'war' entirely on computers, where there are no actual bombs or casualties, but instead attacks are entirely computational, and people then obediently report to 'disintegration machines' - all in the name of avoiding the horrors of a real war.

More proof for the need of modern warfare to include embedded lawyers with the troops?

james t kirk · 12-22-2004, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

For the record, I wasn't calling Lebell just a troll. I was calling him an Ugly Cave Troll. WAIT! Just kidding.

I thought lebell was female

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 07:46 PM

You thought wrong.

By the way, is that the fucker from RE4?

Lebell · 12-23-2004, 08:19 AM

If by 'fucker' you mean that troll sketch, it would be my guess that is the one of the sketches for LOTR, since that is the troll in the Mines of Moria scene in FOTR.

And the name confuses a lot of people, but you French speakers will recognize that 'le' means the male form as opposed to 'la' for the female.

energus · 12-23-2004, 08:35 AM

Well as I see it, he did not kill the kid, it was the bullets. So yes he should be punished, otherwise we could all kill the terminally ill and sick at whim and that would be bad. Even though I understand his reasoning I can not respect his decision. Furthermore I do not understand the fact that you save the poor guy (very noble) and then shoot him. I would find that a waste of effort and time.

Rdr4evr · 12-23-2004, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

If by 'fucker' you mean that troll sketch, it would be my guess that is the one of the sketches for LOTR, since that is the troll in the Mines of Moria scene in FOTR.

And the name confuses a lot of people, but you French speakers will recognize that 'le' means the male form as opposed to 'la' for the female.

Ah, I see! I am one of the few who have not yet seen LotR. But that ogre looks like the one from RE4 as well.

CMH · 01-05-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by energus

Well as I see it, he did not kill the kid, it was the bullets. So yes he should be punished, otherwise we could all kill the terminally ill and sick at whim and that would be bad. Even though I understand his reasoning I can not respect his decision. Furthermore I do not understand the fact that you save the poor guy (very noble) and then shoot him. I would find that a waste of effort and time.

He had to remove the guy from the vehicle to make the decision. Just like how some rescuers end up going to great pains to rescue an already-dead individual who they think might be alive.

texasmortarman · 01-17-2005, 12:09 PM

Having been in combat I can tell you that dealing with wounded, be they yours, theirs, or civilian is a tough thing to do. During combat missions I lead I made it clear to my soldiers we did not wound, we killed. Following the rules of egagement is hard but as long as you can identify a threat with a hostile act or a hostile intent you can egage. A prone body or a body in a vehicle with a weapon in arms reach is just such a threat so you put two into it, then the man behind you does the same. Once you start treating a casualty you own him until someone or something takes him out of your hands this is the law of war. So before you touch a body you make sure the threat is gone.

12-10-2004, 12:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ballzor Crazy Location: Bat Country	"U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen" U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen I have a feeling that many of you thought exactly what I did when first reading the headline for this article. "Previous military court hearings have heard that several troops had fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City. Soldiers from the same battalion arrived on the scene to find a burning truck and casualties around it. According to accounts given by witnesses at previous hearings, the soldiers, including Horne, tried to rescue an Iraqi casualty from inside the vehicle. The victim had severe abdominal wounds and burns and was thought by several of the witnesses to be beyond medical help. The criminal investigator had said that the U.S. soldiers had decided that ``the best course of action was to put (the victim) out of his misery.''" The Title really says it all doesn't it.

12-10-2004, 12:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Maybe we should start cropping all these American killing Iraqi posts... __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-10-2004, 03:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Isn't it one of life's strange coincidences that I just watched that very Star Trek episode about 2 hours ago...and I really don't see the connection to this situation. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-10-2004, 10:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	<img src="http://www.angband.com/towers/images/playerart/cavetroll.jpg" width=640> Last edited by MSD; 12-11-2004 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: Resizing picture to avoid breaking tables

12-22-2004, 07:46 PM	#12 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	You thought wrong. By the way, is that the fucker from RE4? Last edited by Rdr4evr; 12-22-2004 at 07:49 PM..

12-10-2004, 12:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	While the title is true, the actual story isn't what most would think of immediately I would imagine.

12-10-2004, 12:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	"A Taste of Armageddon" is one of classic Trek's occasional, obvious metaphors for the absurdity of the then-cold war between East and West. Gene Lyons stars as a Federation ambassador named Fox, who boards the Enterprise to reach the planet Eminiar VII, where he hopes to negotiate a peace treaty with the inhabitants. Instead the crew of the Enterprise gets caught in the middle of an interplanetary war between Eminiar and neighboring planet Vendikar. The twist is that the war is being fought on computers, and compliant residents of those "destroyed" areas obediently report to disintegration chambers, where their "virtual" death is made literal. When the Enterprise is "hit" in one of these simulations, both the warlords of Eminiar VII and Ambassador Fox fully expect Capt. Kirk and crew to report to the disintegration center. The feisty Kirk has other plans, of course. And while the madness of this controlled Armageddon makes a suitably surreal satire of the arms race in the 1960s, the story also evoked the endless, daily reports of body counts during the Vietnam War, with no resolution in sight. Aside from its parable aspect, however, the episode gave Kirk one of his earliest and most compelling scenes of Kirkian preachiness in a bold monologue about peace, reportedly written and rewritten numerous times by series producer and indispensable creative hand Gene L. Coon.

12-13-2004, 09:07 AM	#10 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	For the record, I wasn't calling Lebell just a troll. I was calling him an Ugly Cave Troll. WAIT! Just kidding. Come on now: "U.S. Soldier Guilty of Killing Iraqi Teen" is really over the top. The Star Trek nonsense was in reference to an episode were 2 combatants fight their 'war' entirely on computers, where there are no actual bombs or casualties, but instead attacks are entirely computational, and people then obediently report to 'disintegration machines' - all in the name of avoiding the horrors of a real war. More proof for the need of modern warfare to include embedded lawyers with the troops?

12-23-2004, 08:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	If by 'fucker' you mean that troll sketch, it would be my guess that is the one of the sketches for LOTR, since that is the troll in the Mines of Moria scene in FOTR. And the name confuses a lot of people, but you French speakers will recognize that 'le' means the male form as opposed to 'la' for the female. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-23-2004, 08:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
energus Tilted Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands (find it on a map, it is there (somewhere))	Well as I see it, he did not kill the kid, it was the bullets. So yes he should be punished, otherwise we could all kill the terminally ill and sick at whim and that would be bad. Even though I understand his reasoning I can not respect his decision. Furthermore I do not understand the fact that you save the poor guy (very noble) and then shoot him. I would find that a waste of effort and time. __________________ Somnia, terrores magicos, miracula, sagas, Nocturnus lemures, portentaque. Horace

01-17-2005, 12:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
texasmortarman Upright Location: Georgia	Having been in combat I can tell you that dealing with wounded, be they yours, theirs, or civilian is a tough thing to do. During combat missions I lead I made it clear to my soldiers we did not wound, we killed. Following the rules of egagement is hard but as long as you can identify a threat with a hostile act or a hostile intent you can egage. A prone body or a body in a vehicle with a weapon in arms reach is just such a threat so you put two into it, then the man behind you does the same. Once you start treating a casualty you own him until someone or something takes him out of your hands this is the law of war. So before you touch a body you make sure the threat is gone.