MSD

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041208/D86RG6580.html
Seems that Rumsfeld is blinded to the truth and doesn't want to accept that things aren't going perfectly. It seems to me that letting ideology block out facts is something that can be seen across the board within the administration. Personally, I would like to see more public outcry against a cabinet member who obviously does not care as much as he should about our armed forces. The very least he could do is to acknowledge that landfills and scrap yards are not the ideal place to get armor for vehicles that should be better equipped in the first place.

Ustwo

Complaints are just that, complaints. Some may be valid, some may be not valid, and may be valid but unavoidable.

Should he pretend to care for the cameras like in the Clinton years, and do nothing, or should he tell the truth? NOTHING in war is ever perfect, look at accounts of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Name me a war where soldiers got everything they wanted and had no complaints.

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tecoyah

Gulf War 1

Desert Storm....went pretty much as planned, few complaints (if any) Great planning, plenty of troops, and a clear objective. The commander in Chief at the time knew the likely results of taking out the Government, and wisely avoided it.

In my opinion there is an acceptable level of confusion/failure in warfare.....we have exceeded this level and then some.

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djtestudo

Doesn't sound like he "dismissed" amything.

He was asked questions, he gave answers. What more can you expect from that?

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Ustwo

I was waiting for this.....

While comparing the two is a bit difficult being they were far different types of conflicts, I must assume you haven't heard of Gulf War Syndrome, friendly fire, 'excessive' use of force on the 'highway of death', and we of course should bring up DU.

Also Bush's reasoning, which he was HIGHLY criticized for was that he thought there was no way Saddam's regime would survive after such a defeat, so going into Baghdad wasn't needed. He was wrong, and that mistake cost a lot of Iraqis their lives after failed attempts at rebellion.

Iraq is going far better at far less a cost in life than ANY previous war of its kind to date.

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Locobot

The fact that this line of questioning was cheered on by several thousand active service people during wartime, only miles from the battleground, does not speak well regarding the state of military morale. Some of these troops though seem to be realizing things they should have thought about before they volunteered for service: that it's very well possible they could die in battle, that if necessary the generals will sacrifice their lives as a diversion even (I'm not saying this is being done, but it is possible), that war is fundamentally an unsafe venture.

I'm not sure how I might react to Rumsfeld essentially saying "shut up and die for oil pussies" I'm fairly sure I would start thinking about desertion. Then again I'm not subject to the constant indoctrination and brain washing that our troops in the field receive daily.

National Guard people are intelligent though, most join to put themselves through college. Many of them know that the reason there's no funding for properly armored vehicles is that the Dept. of Defense is allowing Halliburton and other military contractors to loot our national treasury. They know that money went to funding congressional pet projects like the V-22 Osprey flying deathtrap, don't see many of those in active service do we?

In world war two there was never this persistant whining from our troops about being ill-equipped (Sherman tanks v. Panzers, wool pants for the African theater, etc.) although they certainly were in several instances. Why do you think this is? We're seeing the fallout in the form of low troop morale for the disingenuous reasoning and bald-faced lies that our President and others used as rationale for the Iraq war.

OFKU0

Saw it on CNN and Rumsfeld was really trying hard to put the right words in his mouth.

It certainly doesn't sound like a vote of confidence when Rumsfeld replies to serious questions with,.." You go to war with the Army you have," not the one you might want,...or this,..'And, the defense chief added, armor is not always a savior in the kind of combat U.S. troops face in Iraq, where the insurgents' weapon of choice is the roadside bomb, or improvised explosive device that has killed and maimed hundreds, if not thousands, of American troops since the summer of 2003.'

Maybe Rumsfeld is clueless about what is actually happening given recent criticisms from upper military personnel questioning the tactics used in Iraq, most notably concerning Mosel and Fallujah.

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Lebell

I guess I would be interested in hearing what (serious) response he should have given.

It sounds like he did a pretty good job, especially since it seems like the questions were unscreened and unexpected.

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tecoyah

You should never assume too much Ustwo.

The instances you mention,ie: Gulf War Syndrome, Friendly Fire, Depleted Uranium....etc. Have little to do with the issues brought up in the topic, and nothing to rebut the success of Gulf War 1.
It is interesting to me, that you consider Desert Storm a relative failure and consider Enduring Freedom a success. As for Bush Sr. and his "incorrect" choices following the routing, and virtual elimination of Iraqi military forces, I suppose you could interpret such descisions as flawed.
If however, you seriously believe that the descision was based stricktly on thoughts of Saddams regime going away....I will accept this for what it is.

As far as this conflict going " far better at far less a cost in life than ANY previous war of its kind to date." I will reflect on your openingstatement.

"While comparing the two is a bit difficult being they were far different types of conflicts"

Obviously....with no basis for comparison....one could easily accept your statement as truth. We have never allowed ourselves to become involved in a war of this type....unless you wish to make the dreaded Viet Nam comparison.

Do You?

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Seaver

Try reading more about the history of WWII.

zenmaster10665

How can you use DU on this thread in defense of your position when you completely discount its effects in another thread on this same board??

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...pleted+uranium

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Locobot

okay...done. My stance is unchanged. Try posting some actual data if you wish me to question my postion.

KMA-628

No it didn't. You just didn't have the press looking for shit. Armchair quarterbacking a war will never give anyone a real opinion of the events that transpired.

I was there and there were plenty of fucked up things. My buddy got a dishonorable for calling in two helos at the same coordinate. He was given the coordinates by his superior, then told not to question the order. The result: the helos crashed and we had guys killed. Did the supervisor get it? Nope, my buddy did and it he has carried the guilt around ever since.

Also, didn't we lose more people to friendly fire than to enemy fire?

Anyway, not to defend Rummy, but you always want more than you have. You always feel like you need more than you have.

We didn't get what we needed, so we got creative. Anybody that has been in the military, regardless of the president, regardless of the Sec. of Def., will back this up.

Sure, it sucks, but that is the way it is/was/will always be. In life you do not get everything you want.

/and yeah, I bitched a lot when I was in too. It was hot (really, really fuckin' hot), shit didn't work, we were tired, couldn't get fresh milk (goat's milk sucks), we needed better tools, etc. Hell, we didn't even have decent armament, but such is life, we made do and moved on.

powerclown

I agree with the soldier, its unacceptable to have under-armoured vehicles going into a warzone. I can completely understand his point, and its a valid one. If unaddressed, this kind of thing can dangerously snowball, into morale issues which can then affect operational objectives, so the sooner it is addressed the better.

The problem, unfortunately, is a bureaucratic one. The shortcomings in the armor were discovered in the field under active duty. Not an ideal place to conduct Research & Development. Now that the problem has been identified, its going to take time to correct. In the meantime, all the soldiers can do is keep their fingers crossed, and wait.

dksuddeth

Easy company in the 101st fought the battle of the bulge with NO heavy winter clothing and short on ammo. They complained twice and then went forward and defended the line without it.

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ARTelevision

Working within the context of an increased level of complaining is part of the common pattern of behavior these days. Leading a more complaint-ridden pool of people is a common lot as well.

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KMA-628

dk -

I was thinking the same thing regarding Easy.

Some bitch, others get the job done.

ARTelevision

Good stuff there, KMA-628.

...exactly so.

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Ustwo

Thanks KMA, gotta love a first hand account of our perfect little war.

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Locobot

Easy company also suffered a 150% casualty rate by the end of WWII...If this is to be our model for success in Iraq then we had better start drafting replacements now. I thought I was being harsh on our soldiers in my first post, but I've been outdone. I guess all these "support our troops" yellow-ribbon magnets I've been seeing don't mean shit.

guy44

The point isn't how brave our soldiers were in WWII, or how well (or poorly) Desert Storm was planned. The point is, Rummy fucked up planning for THIS war, and as a result there isn't enough armor, body armor, etc. to go around.

This issue is also entirely divorced from whether or not ivading Iraq was in and of itself a good idea.

And it seems to me that Rummy's answer, when questioned, was not, "I'm sorry, I know you've had to make due with some tough conditions and I'm proud of you. We are doing our best to remedy the situation, and give everyone adequate armor. In the mean time, keep up the good work, and I promise that we will do everything possible to improve things."

Instead, he said, "Well, I don't really give a shit that I inadequately supplied you. Tough."

And that is completely unacceptable. For that alone he should resign.

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The_wall

Obviously the poeple who support Rumsfeld don't support our troops. Let me ask you republicans, why do you hate america?

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sprocket

Mabye I'm missing something.. or dont understand what casualty rate means.. but how can the rate be 150%?

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KMA-628

This has to be one of the worst comments I have ever seen here, even if it is an attempt at irony.

The_wall

why is that?

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KMA-628

What did you add to this discussion?

Personally, that comment royally pissed me off.

Have you served? In combat?

/eh, I better stop

The_wall

I was being sarcastic and trying to add a little humor to the discussion, not trying to offend anyone. I thought it was pretty obvious from my wording I wasn't really serious, if it wasn't obvious I'm sorry. You need to lighten up if you get really pissed off over what someone said on a message board, maybe you should smoke some pot with hippy liberals. And what does it matter whether or not I've served in combat? If you must know I'm not allowed in the military, I do however have a good friend who was lost in Iraq, does that make my opinion count any more?

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Coppertop

Funny, I was under the impression that the objective of GW1 was to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait. We did. War over. When was the stated objective the overthrow of Hussein in GW1? Please, show me some documentation on this.

Seaver

Easy Company is a GREAT example for our military.

The purpose of a Unit is to get the job done. Only secondary to that is get it done with the least amount of casualties OR in the allotted time (depends on the situation), and teritry is civilian casualties/etc.

They got the job done. Did they get 150% casualties compared to most units? Yeah. But soldiers die in battle, it seems soldiers are the only ones left in America that realize this.

And other areas in WWII that people complained:
the Shermans who couldnt punch through German tank armor, yet would be torn apart by their guns.
Bomber corps flying/bombing Germany without proper escort
Submarines going out to fight with torpedoes with +50% dud rate
Fighters going up with only 5sec of ammo because not enough were available to go around
Not having proper cold-weather clothing (already presented)
Having Green painted tanks in the desert (hit me signs)
Carpet bombing our own troops the first few tries
...

I could go on. Complaints never stopped during WWII. Yes these were justified, but there were many many more that were just that, complaints. The heat, the cold (outside of frostbite), of VD, of the same food over and over, etc. As long as they can still complete their mission that's all that matters from a military perspective.

Paul67

Anything said, by, or for or against any of the present administration about it's performance in this war for me, in my mind, gut and heart, tremendously and beforehand already biased by my enduring strong belief that this war was a mistake from day one and by day one, I don't mean the day the shooting started, I mean the day that George W. Bush began to get an inkling that he might become president of the United States, and be entering a phase of his life in which he might be able to show Daddy that, after a miserable start and preparation prior to that time, that he is good for something after all. Wrong again George, you no good SOB.

from and Korean War vet.

Cadwiz

The equipment that we have, or don't have, is directly related to military spending. You can't keep cutting and cutting and just expect shit to magically appear when the time comes.

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Lebell

Thanks for reminding me about the torpedo debacle.

Oy vey, their was one battle where the Japanese boat was disabled and the US sub kept shooting and shooting and *thunk!* every time, the torp wouldn't detonate. The sub finally ran out of torpedos and the ship escaped.


And you forgot that whole scene from SPR concerning the gliders. That shit wasn't made up. Not only were they scattered all over the place, but they thought those hedges in France were little things (based on the air pics) and that the gliders would just roll over them. Too bad they were in actuality 10-12 feet high in places...

Oh yeah, there were some tremendous foul-ups.

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Ustwo

I THINK that was the Wahoo, (the sub) and I forget the captains name but he was a very famous sub commander. He later went MIA in the sea of Japan. I could look it up on Google but that would be cheating

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Lebell

Yeah, I have a great article on it out of "American Science and Technology", but it's in a box somewhere...

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Seaver

Yeah, my point was in EVERY war there WILL be unforseen problems. There will also be problems that were (for countless reasons) dismissed, which in hindsight seem obvious to armchair generals.

From a military perspective this war broke records. Fastest advance of ANY army EVER, the best kill ratio with exception of the first gulf war (though completely different because they didnt actually occupy any land), and one of the best logistic maintenance considering the vast amount of travel required.

Yes, people have and are dying, but people die in war.

martinguerre

And folks lost lives on it. there wasn't a good ID system for troops in the days following d-day, and my grandfather was nearly shot as an infiltrator D+6. He had gone over to England with Bill Donovan and the OSS to work as a intel operation before the US was officially involved, adn so he was commissioned as a British officer. his Royal Navy uniform looked like an Waffen-SS one, with only slightly diff. insignia. The GI's who took him prisoner eventually bought his story, and i'm in their debt.

the war was won, and i'm proud of what they did to do so. but there was extreme scarcity, full mobilization, and this nation throwing everything it had in to that war. if there wasn't enough to arm and protect them, it was becase there wasn't enough, period.

we're fighting a war of choice, when we choose the place and time. that we're running low on body armor isn't just stupid, it's a crime against the men and women we're asking to fight. we had time to prepare, and the choice of waiting until more supplies were ready. D-day was put off for some time before Eisenhower was sure we had the ability to win the fight.

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shakran

Oh please. Would you have us believe that the generals are right now slapping themselves on the forehead and saying "ARMOR! Damn! It's so obvious in hindsight. I wish I'd thought of that before!"

That's absurd. A 3rd grader could figure out that soldiers need armor if they're gonna have a shot at surviving in a modern warzone. If the top brass at the military couldn't figure that out before they sent tens of thousands of kids over there to get picked off one by one, then that's not a reflection on anyone but the brass.

And the remark on the intelligence of the soldiers because this is what they signed up for is misguided. This is not what they signed up for. They signed up to DEFEND OUR COUNTRY. Not attack other countries who aren't doing anything to us. They have every right to be pissed. Their trust has been abused. Their lives have been unnecessarilly placed in danger.

We have not been appointed the world's policeman. We are not the only hope for the globe. We must stop horning in on other countries' affairs.


Oh, and I'll step up and start the vietnam comparison here. This war IS viet nam without trees. Same situation. Big bad USA comes in to fuck with people that don't need to be fucked with. The people (surprise!) don't like it and fight back. USA has piss poor planning and idiotic strategies (we captured this town! Let's leave and wait for the enemy to occupy it, then come capture it again!) just as we did in viet nam. And all in pursuit of an "enemy" that has not made a move against us.

Unbelievable.

Seaver

Interesting fact you are overlooking, the military doesnt decide how much money is spent on the military.

And you can spend all the time talking about how this is just like Vietnam, it isnt, and can not be approached in the same way. Fighting in the desert is a LOT different than in the jungle...

And yes, soldiers signed up to defend our country, but to say they never expected to fight in a war other than on US soil when it gets invaded is insulting their intelligence. The last war of national survival started 60 years ago, since then they have taken place everywhere else but in the nations immediate defense. To say they dont know when signing up that the future wars wouldn't be taken place in Utah is insulting to them.

trickyy

armor is the reason that another group of soldiers defied orders a few weeks ago.

i thought rumsfeld recovered fairly well, although he paused long enough to allow for supporting applause...and the fact that we don't have the ideal army for the job is due to a variety of decisions made in post-Saddam Iraq (coupled with the rush to begin fighting). the situation is bad and the defense department holds a lot of the responsibility. but it is good that rumsfeld is at least engaging the troops.

Locobot

Thanks for all the great examples from world war two to bolster my argument that although there were equipment "snafus" in that war our troops soldiered on because they believed in the righteousness of their cause. In the Iraq war we've already seen, as has been mentioned, troops refusing orders on the basis of being ill-equipped.

I could be wrong but I believe the "150% casualty rate" refers to there being, with replacement soldiers, casualties that totalled 1.5 times the base population of the regiment.