roachboy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4051641.stm

the supreme court is meeting now.
the stakes are obviously quite high--this should be a turning point in the crisis.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

Only if its not a kangaroo court. Something I have no knowlage about in ukraine politics.

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Dragonlich

I just saw some of the evidence on the Dutch telly. Election observers shot videos showing:
- opposition officials being beaten up by unindentified people wearing black clothes. Didn't look like random tough guys to me.
- a couple of copies of voting cards, which were reportedly inside one of the see-through containers used in voting offices.
- an elderly female voter was refused because she had already allowed someone to vote for her. She denied she ever requested permission for that, or ever having told anyone to do that for her.
- a bunch of badly burned voting cards, stuffed in plastic bags.

Given that this is just the tip of the iceberg (we only saw a few clips, and election observers weren't *everywhere*), I'd say it's pretty substancial.

As for the threat of the eastern provinces breaking away: an expert just claimed (on BBC world, I believe) that it was mostly political posturing, not something that'd actually happen. There's no legal basis for the referendum they're holding, and it's not going to mean anything.

stevo

Its funny how people are so quick to equate US election irregularities to the outright fraud occuring in the Ukraine.

quck, rally, time for a protest.

oktjabr

Does US version of democracy look disturbing when looking from Europe? Yes.
Did Bush win with unfair tricks? No.
Is this all comparable with Ukraine? No.

Anyway, being rather interested about former Soviet countries (sometimes even "professionally") and living right next-door to Russia this isn't really very surprising and Ukraine isn't even the most worrying phenomenon in that area (for example knowing the good old rewriting of history into more patriotic form in Ukraine etc. Or the personality of Leonid Kutschma). I'd be more worried about other large countries like Belarus, Kazakstan and a number of other -stans slipping toward dictatorship (unless they already are, like Belarus) and noone really caring. For example EU is spewing money to Turkmenistan with Turkmenbashi the Great leading and USA didn't really feel any remorse cooperating militarily with Uzbekistan where political dissidents are being for example boiled alive.

Probably an example of the famous Realpolitik.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

roachboy

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...rtner=homepage

this just posted--the supreme court in the ukraine has called for new elections before 26 december. interesting development: what do you make of it?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ObieX

That would probably be the best way to do it imo. The last results were so messed up that any other action would be met with some kind of violence. This would not be good for the side accused of the cheating, but if they are this corrupt and untrustworthy they dont deserve the position anyway.

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We Must Dissent.

roachboy

this aside in the ny times article is particularly interesting:


and from the lead paragraph in the guardian story, which was apparently generated a little earlier in the day:

source:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...651144,00.html

i did not see anything about the parliamentary vote in the ny times article, which i think interesting as well. we'll see, i am sure, how the american right responds to this one.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Dragonlich

Some interesting comments from the experts:
- the fact that the supreme court actually spoke about millions of votes that were falsified is a direct attack on Yanukovych. If they had merely said that there were irregularities, he might have dismissed it as a political ploy. Now he is ruled guilty of massive fraud, and he'll have a very hard time remaining in politics altogether.
- the media in Ukraine, particularly the TV stations, are slowly but surely edging away from Yanukovych, and are now reporting more and more about the opposition. Some even started supporting the opposition. The end result: the opposition will likely retain their following in the West, and will expand their following in the East. Hence, they'll more than likely win.

Some personal thoughts:
- Russia has been kicked in the nuts. Putin has been shown to support a fraudulent candidate, and he'll definitely lose face over that.
- The pro-Yanukovych people in the Eastern provinces (which threatened to break away) will be severely disappointed by this ruling. Some will call it a Western ploy, others will see the truth. How many will do what still remains to be seen.

I hope the new election will be fair (should be run by an unbiased election committee), and I hope the results will be decisive. If Yanukovych still gets a large vote (say 40%), his followers will claim the opposition committed fraud. If he gets less than 30%, they haven't a leg to stand on.

-------------------
About the Ukrainian troops in Iraq: both candidates had already pledged to pull them out *before* the election. The fact that there was a vote can hardly be described as a surprise. However, I don't think that this vote is legally binding - I'd say the Ukrainian government has to decide that, not the parliament. That is, if their political system works the same way ours (Netherlands) does.

Dragonlich

Things are moving along nicely. New elections are planned, law changes to make them fairer have been passed, and the prime-minister has been send home (not sacked, though).

Another development: Yushchenko has this really nasty acne-filled face these days, where he used to be quite attractive.

before and after:
<image src="http://images.fok.nl/upload/041208_519_Viktor_Joesjtsjenko_vergiftiging.jpg">

Now, Yushchenko's doctor claims he's been poisoned.

<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1393172,00.html">Times article</a>

If this is true, it's gonna get nasty. Dioxin poisoning can be detected long after the fact, and the doctors say they're going to produce some sort of evidence soon.

Dragonlich

Well, there you go: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4088345.stm">Ukraine candidate 'was poisoned'</a>

I wonder how the pro-Russia side is going to explain this.

KMA-628

Coming home, I just heard on the radio that the Dioxin poisioning was confirmed.

Something like 1000 times the "normal" level was in his system.

/still can't get over the pictures, it's like it added 25 years to his face.

Edit: yup, it seems to be hitting the press

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - Dioxin poisoning caused the mysterious illness of Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko, a doctor said Saturday, adding that the poison could have been put in his soup.

Locobot

Sounds like good-ol' Soviet-style democracy to me. If you can't win through fraud, intimidation, violence, and control of the media you just assassinate your opponent. I wonder how long it will be before they roll in the tanks, most likely under a fabricated threat of rioting or terrorism, to clear out the protester "rabble." Putin must be patting himself on the back for eliminating the threat of a free press. Otherwise we might see investigatory journalism uncovering the former KGB leader's involvement.

oktjabr

The "funniest" part was that he was probably poisoned during a dinner hosted by the Ukrainian secret service.

I have to make a mental note not to attend state security service parties if I happen to be a leading opposition figure.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

Locobot

Yeah somewhere in an attic there is a picture of Yushchenko getting younger. yuck yuck

What are the gun laws like in the Ukraine? The country seems about two ticks away from violent revolt, but then again maybe not.

jonjon42

christ..dioxin...man
agent orange broke down into dioxin (I believe it also had similiar effects on people to dioxin)
one way to tell a vietnam vet that was in contact with that shit alot was that they would have terrible cists and scarring all over their face, except for around their eyes. Those were the old goggle marks...

It's not deadly but in this case it seems that was not the objective. I believe they wanted to make the opposition oponent appear weak, and question his health. Dioxin was probably used because nobody would suspect a herbacide to come in contact with him. Probably the old Agent Orange stories are what prompted the test for dioxin in the first place. Killing him would have been suspicious and may have given the opposition a big sympathy vote.

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A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

Dragonlich

Actually, the official line from the state prosecuters (before this dioxine was confirmed) was that he had contracted herpes... It wasn't just about making him look physically weak, it was about making him look like morally weak too.