Ukraine Vote Results - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ObieX · 11-24-2004, 11:14 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ine/index.html

Quote:

Powell warns Ukraine over 'result'
Opposition leader calls for nationwide political strike
Wednesday, November 24, 2004 Posted: 1:55 PM EST (1855 GMT)

KIEV, Ukraine (CNN) -- Ukraine's election commission declared Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych the winner of a hotly contested presidential runoff, but U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell quickly dismissed the contest as marred by fraud.

Speaking in Washington, Powell urged Ukraine's leaders to "respond immediately" warning "there will be consequences" for the United States' relationship with Ukraine.

Liberal opposition challenger Viktor Yushchenko said Wednesday evening that he did not recognise the official result and called for a country-wide "political strike."

"We do not recognise the election as officially declared," Yushchenko told tens of thousands of supporters massed in Kiev's main square for the third straight day.

"This decision puts Ukraine on the verge of civil conflict," Yushchenko said, calling for a transport stoppage and other strike action.

Pro-Moscow Yanukovych had 49.46 percent of the vote while Yushchenko was named on 46.61 of the ballots, the commission said Wednesday.

The final official results failed to disperse the thousands of Yushchenko supporters who have packed the capital's Independence Square for the past three days in freezing temperatures and blowing snow, hoping to hear that their man would win.

Singers continued to perform on a stage, and orange banners and flags, the color of the opposition party, waved above the hat-covered heads of the protesters.

In an impassioned speech to the crowds before the commission's announcement, Yushchenko called the results "fraudulent" and suggested that new balloting be held -- but only, he said, if the commission would be honest.

A small group of pro-government marchers rallied around the Central Election Commission's imposing white limestone building, waving blue and white flags in support of Yanukovych.

Ukraine's outgoing president has offered to hold talks to end the crisis, but a Yushchenko ally said the only thing to discuss was a transfer of power to the opposition leader.

"We are ready to negotiate only about the peaceful handing over of power to Yushchenko," Mykola Tomenko said.

President Leonid Kuchma called for negotiations late Tuesday, saying the opposition's actions amounted to a "political farce" that could lead to "serious consequences," according to news reports.

Kuchma said authorities would not be the first to use force but would uphold law and order.

A Yushchenko spokesman said earlier the opposition was prepared in theory to take part in talks.

In an interview with CNN's Jill Dougherty ahead of the commission's announcement, Yuschenko called the results "fraudulent" but promised there would be no violence from the thousands of demonstrators in Kiev's main square. (Full story)

Yuschenko then told supporters he was prepared to rerun the election provided it was overseen by honest officials.

"We are ready to have a repeat of the second round vote provided we have an honest Central Election Commission," Reuters quoted Yushchenko as saying.

Yushchenko warned Tuesday that Ukraine could descend into civil war if the election results he called "a sham" are not annulled and he is not named president.

The Ukrainian election commission announced late Monday that Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych had a slim but unassailable lead over Yushchenko, prompting demonstrations from the capital Kiev to the nationalist center Lviv in the west.

Yushchenko -- and U.S. and European election observers -- said the vote was fraudulent. Kiev, Lviv and several other cities announced they would not accept the results of the vote and would recognize only Yushchenko as the winner.

On Tuesday, Yushchenko led up to 200,000 protesters in a march on Ukraine's parliament demanding authorities admit they cheated in the election.

Parliamentary deputies held an emergency session to debate opposition calls to annul the vote and pass a no-confidence vote against the election commission. But the chamber lacked enough members for a quorum.

The politicians spoke anyway, as demonstrators watched on a large television screen set up outside.

When Yushchenko stepped before the cameras, the crowd outside parliament roared its approval.

After the session ended, Yushchenko symbolically swore the oath of office on a Bible. The country's constitution, however, stipulates that the president swears allegiance on a copy of the constitution.

Lawmakers chanted "Bravo, Mr. President!" as demonstrators outside the building chanted his last name, waving orange flags representing Yushchenko's party.

Should parliament pass a no-confidence vote against the election commission, the matter would go to the Supreme Court, which could then annul the vote in some areas, including some in which as much as 95 percent of the vote was reported cast for Yanukovych.

Kiev's main square has been marked by a near-total absence of police officers. But demonstrators Tuesday faced phalanxes of riot police during a march to the presidential administration building, AP said.

Protest organizers formed a human chain to keep demonstrators away from police, and officers backed up to avoid a confrontation.

Meanwhile, supporters of Yanukovych have become increasingly visible in Kiev, setting up tents not far from the opposition's larger encampment. They shouted their candidate's name and denounced Yushchenko.

A small group of pro-government marchers rallied around the election commission's imposing white limestone building, waving blue and white flags in support of Yanukovych.

Western criticism
Yushchenko, a pro-Western liberal, and Yanukovych, an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, fought a bitterly contested runoff battle.

On Monday, the election commission said that with 99.38 percent of precincts counted, Yanukovych had 49.42 percent to Yushchenko's 46.70 percent.

However, an exit poll conducted under a Western-funded program gave Yushchenko 54 percent of the vote to Yanukovych's 43 percent. Another poll put Yushchenko ahead by 49.4 to 45.9 percent.

Western observers criticized the balloting, and on Wednesday European leaders stepped up pressure on Ukraine to review the results. (Full story)

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, normally a close ally of Putin, said the election showed what he called massive fraud, Reuters reported, while EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said Ukraine was at a crossroads and could turn violent.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned of "consequences" for the EU's political and trade relations with Ukraine if the government there does not allow a full review of the election results, AP reported.

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer summoned the Ukraine ambassador Wednesday to express the alliance's disappointment, and Ukraine's ambassador to the European Union was called to appear before the European Parliament on Wednesday to defend the election, AP reported.

At the Vatican, Pope John Paul II told Ukrainian pilgrims he was praying for their country in a "special way."

And in Washington, the White House issued a statement saying the United States is "deeply disturbed by extensive and credible indications of fraud committed in the Ukrainian presidential election."

However, Putin has congratulated Yanukovych on his victory, and the Kremlin-controlled Russian parliament denounced the Ukrainian opposition Wednesday for its "illegal actions," AP reported.

Putin, traveling in Portugal, called the observers' criticism "inadmissible" and said through an interpreter that Ukraine "doesn't need to be lectured," AP reported.

CNN's Jill Dougherty and Ryan Chilcote contributed to this report.

The US is "deeply disturbed" over this happening in other countries, yet here the shady election results are blown off? I don't mean this to be a flame, I'm just interested in what others think about this. Should we really be poking our noses into this other country's business this much? Especially on this issue? Our last election was ripe with fraud and yet there isn't much mention or outrage. This former communist region knows full well what their democracy is worth and are willing to fight to be sure the process is carried out fairly. We seem to take this for granted here in the US. There should be just as much outrage here as there is over there. Granted we would be far less likely to erupt into violent conflict, but should we be any less upset over the inconsistencies in our election?

I dunno.. it seems this one is gonna come back to bite us in the rump one way or another.

jbuffett · 11-24-2004, 12:39 PM

So let me get this straight... the U.S. is saying Ukraine's election isn't valid because FUCKING EXIT POLLS weren't correct.

Excuse me while I ponder the meaning of irony....

Paq · 11-24-2004, 01:08 PM

pot...kettle..kettle...pot...hope you get aquainted

Now, i will probably admit that the Ukraine election was more flawed than the american election, but it just seems so hypocritical

trickyy · 11-24-2004, 01:30 PM

i guess problems with our election would matter more if it would change the outcome. i hope they improve our system, of course. and our exit polls did not reveal such a nation-wide disparity. that's 11 percentage points of a lead, so it's a 14 point difference from the outcome.

over there the fraud may have changed the outcome. the candidate that won is more pro-russia, backed by putin. in case you haven't been paying attention, democracy hasn't been faring so well in russia lately. putin wants to appoint local leaders instead of have them elected. even the communists are complaining about the lack of democratic practice in russia. so we are likely concerned about this election because of the close russian interests.

Lebell · 11-24-2004, 06:43 PM

I don't know of anyone outside of the far left loony fringe that really believes Bush stole the election. Irregularities? Yes. Causes for concern? Yes. But did Kerry actually win? No.

In the Ukraine, it appears that might have actually happened.

Superbelt · 11-24-2004, 06:49 PM

It's amazing, the mobs of hundreds of thousands of people just partying in the streets as a protest to the way the election was carried out. It's inspiring and puts a bit of hope on an otherwise bleak week in Eurasia.

Super Model · 11-25-2004, 12:31 AM

to be realistic, these protests will hurt the Ukrainian economy. I think that they should just do the election again, but properly train the exit poll people, take them to US to learn how exit polls really work, instead of how their boss told them to do it. Exit poll people were brought in by Ushenko (opposition), and they proclamed him winner with 52.7% of the votes. How the exit poll people come up with this % ? : Yakunovic they put 1 on paper, for Ushenko 2...... it looks like this:

Yakunovich 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 etc
Ushenko 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 etc

but when counting, it all just adds up and you get a higher votes. How come there was no single source siting how many votes did the exit polls count? They never released them. A good investigation is in order, to get the facts strait, first of all in these kind of situations. Actions from the current administration are in order. A recount of all the ballats, recount of all the exit poll data, if it was documented at all.

aKula · 11-25-2004, 02:33 AM

From what I heard the international observers weren't too happy about the election either. I believe it was rigged even though I won't trust exit polls.

energus · 11-25-2004, 04:54 AM

At the moment it looks like the elections were rigged. I read there were 2.8 million votes messed with in favor of the current president. So it seems that there are some faults, but what will happen? Lets hope it happens peacefully.

Dragonlich · 11-25-2004, 07:29 AM

Ukraine is on the "border" between the Western sphere, and the Orthodox Russian sphere. This election is just part of a struggle over that border. In essence, the Ukrainian people are used as pawns in this political and cultural struggle.

Given the relatively good relationship between the EU and Russia, Russia will probably try to keep things peaceful; OTOH, they cannot allow Ukraine moving away from them - that'd mean they'd lose power. A compromise solution can be reached if the pro-western opposition promise they won't get *too* close to the EU.

SecretMethod70 · 11-25-2004, 11:18 AM

I find comparisons between the US elections and the Ukranian elections to be quite spurious. Regardless of the fact that allegations of fraud in the US have been addressed and dismissed, there are other things which set these Ukranian elections apart from the US election, no matter how much one would like to believe the US elections were "stolen"...

Quote:

'Murder bid' on Ukraine candidate
By Helen Fawkes
BBC correspondent in Kiev

Ukraine's main opposition leader and presidential candidate has said he has survived an assassination attempt.
Viktor Yushchenko was travelling in the south of the country during an election tour when, it is claimed, a lorry tried to force his vehicle off the road.
Car crashes are common in the former Soviet republic - around 1,000 people die on its roads every year.
In recent years, a number of politicians have been killed or injured in traffic accidents.
Mr Yushchenko claims what happened to him was no accident.
His team has said that the day before the incident they had a tip-off that someone would try to kill the presidential candidate in a traffic accident.

Mr Yushchenko said the car in which he was travelling on Thursday tried to overtake a lorry three times, but on each occasion the lorry swerved towards his vehicle.
The former prime minister had been travelling in Kherson in southern Ukraine as part of a campaign tour of the country.
Mr Yushchenko is currently leading the opinion polls as the favoured candidate to win the presidential election in October.
The roads in Ukraine are generally in a poor condition, but some accidents involving powerful people have aroused suspicions.
In 1999, a dissident and prominent politician, Vyacheslav Chornovil, was killed when the same type of lorry pulled out in front of his car and a couple of years ago, another leading opposition figure, Yulia Tymoshenko, was injured in a head-on collision.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/3566166.stm

Quote:

Yushchenko's illness still a mystery
William J. Kole, Associated Press
November 24, 2004 YUSH1124

VIENNA -- What ails Viktor Yushchenko?

As Ukraine's pro-Western opposition leader claimed victory Tuesday in the presidential election, the mystery surrounding an appearance-altering illness that prompted two stays at a Vienna hospital persisted.
Yushchenko accused Ukrainian authorities of poisoning him. His detractors suggested he'd eaten some bad sushi. Adding to the intrigue, the Austrian doctors who treated him have asked foreign experts to help determine whether his symptoms may have been caused by toxins found in biological weapons.
Medical experts said they may never know what befell Yushchenko. But the illness has dramatically changed his appearance since he first sought treatment at Vienna's private Rudolfinerhaus clinic on Sept. 10.
Known for his ruggedly handsome, almost movie star looks, Yushchenko's complexion is now pockmarked. His face is partly paralyzed, and one eye often tears up.
By the time Yushchenko checked out of the clinic last month after returning for follow-up treatment, physicians said they could neither prove nor rule out that he had been poisoned. Dr. Nikolai Korpan, who oversaw Yushchenko's treatment in Vienna, said the cause of his illness remained "totally open."
At Rudolfinerhaus, Yushchenko underwent a week of intensive treatments for several illnesses, including acute pancreatitis, a viral skin disease and nerve paralysis on the left side of his face, Korpan said.
Clinic director Michael Zimpfer and the Vienna clinic's chief physician, Dr. Lothar Wicke, later asked for outside help from "a specialist in military operations and biological weapons," the Austria Press Agency reported.
Yushchenko's medical files since have been sealed and turned over to Austrian prosecutors, local media reported. It's unclear what the next step will be.

Tarl Cabot · 11-25-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

I find comparisons between the US elections and the Ukranian elections to be quite spurious. Regardless of the fact that allegations of fraud in the US have been addressed and dismissed, there are other things which set these Ukranian elections apart from the US election, no matter how much one would like to believe the US elections were "stolen"...

Wow, those pictures are incredible!

I'll believe Bev 'Send me money" Harris is serious about "disenfranchisement" when she starts checking out the voting irregularities in California.

They affect a great many more people, but of course, correcting California's voting procedures won't change who is our next president.

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 03:23 PM

well, as one of the "looney fringe" that believes Bush almost certainly did lose, I must say that calling an election fraudulent based on exit poll data seems to be the height of hypocrisy coming from an administration in power despite the astronomical odds of "flawed" exit polls running against them.
It´s enough proof anywhere else in the world to cast doubt on the outcome. But the US exit polls are flawed. hahahahahahaha
Respect to the Ukranian people for at least having the balls to contest this. Too bad the rest of the world are sheep.

OFKU0 · 11-25-2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

Respect to the Ukranian people for at least having the balls to contest this. Too bad the rest of the world are sheep.

Yes, agreed.

I hope the rest of the world is paying attention because this could happen anywhere, and thank the people demonstrating and democracy for that. For far to long the establishment has had the power to do as it pleases to carry or leave anyone behind at will regardless of conscience. And what if anything could anyone do anything about it?

Now in one small instance in the Ukraine, the world is taking note to those who have fucking well had enough and aren't going to take it anymore. My utmost respect to those who aren't stupid fucking brainless sheep whatever the outcome..

Ustwo · 11-25-2004, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

well, as one of the "looney fringe"

Finally I can agree with you.

Bush won, get over it.

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Finally I can agree with you.

Bush won, get over it.

Not too sure about that and I won´t.

Dragonlich · 11-26-2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

well, as one of the "looney fringe" that believes Bush almost certainly did lose, I must say that calling an election fraudulent based on exit poll data seems to be the height of hypocrisy coming from an administration in power despite the astronomical odds of "flawed" exit polls running against them.
It´s enough proof anywhere else in the world to cast doubt on the outcome. But the US exit polls are flawed. hahahahahahaha
Respect to the Ukranian people for at least having the balls to contest this. Too bad the rest of the world are sheep.

The US didn't call the election flawed *because* of the exit polls. The exit polls were just another bit of evidence. The OSCE, and other international monitors, reported numerous problems and signs of fraud.

One example is the number of voters: there was something like a 75% voter turnout overall, but mysteriously, in some pro-government areas, there was a 95% turnout. Just another bit of evidence.

As for the US election: it may have been flawed, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Ukrainian one. During the US elections, there were in fact international observers, and I have yet to hear one credible report of fraud.

SecretMethod70 · 11-26-2004, 03:06 AM

Regarding the US elections, I had the pleasure of taking a class during the election with a Democratic teacher who also works in the Chicago radio news media, so she saw all the exit polls since she was one of the people on her station doing the reporting of the election. She also teaches a class on the art of polling. What happened was not so much that the exit polls were wrong, but that they were read too hastily by many people. The leaked exit polls represented voters from earlier in the day, and it's a known fact that there may be very different trends in voters from different times of the day. Once you get past the conspiracy theories and accept that the exit poll results CNN now shows are the FULL results, it is clear that there is no disparity not within the margin of error. And I know the CNN results are not falsified because of my discussions with my very much Bush-hating teacher about these exit polls, since she was able to witness the election from within a news organization, doing the calling and everything.

unbzete · 11-26-2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonlich

A compromise solution can be reached if the pro-western opposition promise they won't get *too* close to the EU.

But in fact this point is the bulk of what differentiates the two candidates, so such a compromise is unlikely to be reached. Yuschenko has campaigned on a platform of EU and NATO accession, and Team Putin has been pursuing a return to former Russian strength by keeping firm control over their near abroad.

About two days ago, the situation was perfect for Russia. Thier guy "won", but the win would leave Ukraine isolated internationally, leaving them no choice but to turn to the Kremlin, much like Belarus.
Now though, things may have gone further than Putin expected, and if you've been following the reports, he has sloppily retracted his original endorsement of Yanukovych as the winner.

www.kyivpost.com has had very good up to the minute coverage if you're interested in following the developments.

Ustwo · 11-26-2004, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unbzete

But in fact this point is the bulk of what differentiates the two candidates, so such a compromise is unlikely to be reached. Yuschenko has campaigned on a platform of EU and NATO accession, and Team Putin has been pursuing a return to former Russian strength by keeping firm control over their near abroad.

About two days ago, the situation was perfect for Russia. Thier guy "won", but the win would leave Ukraine isolated internationally, leaving them no choice but to turn to the Kremlin, much like Belarus.
Now though, things may have gone further than Putin expected, and if you've been following the reports, he has sloppily retracted his original endorsement of Yanukovych as the winner.

www.kyivpost.com has had very good up to the minute coverage if you're interested in following the developments.

Great link. The only thing I'm really worried about is Putin makes moves to help the 'fairly elected democratic government' with troops.

Dragonlich · 11-26-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Great link. The only thing I'm really worried about is Putin makes moves to help the 'fairly elected democratic government' with troops.

That'd probably the stupidest thing he could do. Not only would that alienate every single Ukrainian, including those that voted pro-Russian, but it would also destroy the goodwill Putin has developed in the West. He might be able to do it, but in the end, he'll lose much more than he'd gain.

Ustwo · 11-26-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonlich

That'd probably the stupidest thing he could do. Not only would that alienate every single Ukrainian, including those that voted pro-Russian, but it would also destroy the goodwill Putin has developed in the West. He might be able to do it, but in the end, he'll lose much more than he'd gain.

It depends on Putins true motives. If he wants USSR II as some claim, then it will make sense.

OFKU0 · 11-26-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

It depends on Putins true motives. If he wants USSR II as some claim, then it will make sense.

It would make sense especially to the hardliners who don't accept the Ukraine as a sovereign state that's for sure.

O oh,...agreeing with Ustwo twice in one day. I think it's time for beer to bring me back to my senses.

Dragonlich · 11-27-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

It depends on Putins true motives. If he wants USSR II as some claim, then it will make sense.

I doubt Putin is really *that* stupid. With Russia's bad economy, degraded army and many other problems (including a war in Chechnya), I doubt they'd be able to get a USSR II for more than a few years. If they go into the Ukraine as an occupying power, they'll be facing an angry population, ready and willing to fight for their independence. They'll also face the prospect of a direct military conflict with NATO if they go too far.

That scenario will simply not work, and even Putin can see that.

host · 11-27-2004, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I don't know of anyone outside of the far left loony fringe that really believes Bush stole the election. Irregularities? Yes. Causes for concern? Yes. But did Kerry actually win? No.

In the Ukraine, it appears that might have actually happened.

Lebell, the circumstances that first "brought Bush to power", coupled with the
stench now emanating from this election's aftermath in certain precincts and
counties in just 2 key states, Ohio and Florida, fanned by your "loony fringe",
name calling, and your declaration; "But did Kerry actually win? No.", mesh
neatly with this:

Quote:

"There's just a lot of allegations of vote fraud that placed their election, the validity of their elections, in doubt," Bush said. "The international community is watching very carefully. People are paying very close attention to this, and hopefully it will be resolved in a way that brings credit and confidence to the Ukrainian government." <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=285487">http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=285487</a>

I read your remarks and the remarks of Mr. Bush, and I read the quotes
below. I think that we will "move on", only after we examine the short comings in the recent voting. Bush has no mandate now, or previously.
If Bush still has more votes after a closer look in Ohio and in Florida, that can only serve to strengthen his stature among all Americans. If it turns out that Bush actually has less votes than Kerry in Ohio or in Florida, it would be un-American for that circumstance not to be revealed, and dealt with.

Quote:

The Government Accountability Office usually begins investigations in response to specific requests from Congress, but the agency's head, Comptroller General David Walker, said the GAO acted on its own because of the many comments it received about ballot counting.
GAO officials said the investigation was not triggered by a request from several House Democrats, who wrote the agency this month seeking an investigation. <a href="http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=56007">http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=56007</a>

Quote:

The following counties have refused to be held accountable for the 2004 presidential election, by declining to produce basic audit documents until after all election contest periods have lapsed: Palm Beach County, Ft. Myers County, Pasco County, Highland County, Holmes County, Indian River County, Lee County, Levy County. Black Box Voting is requesting citizen audit groups to work with us to take these counties into full audit mode in December. Other counties may be added to this list. <a href="http://www.blackboxvoting.org/">http://www.blackboxvoting.org/</a>

Quote:

Do they have reason? With three weeks’ reflection, he’s not convinced there was an altered vote - accidental or otherwise - at least not on “a grand scale.” But Zogby says the “system is not geared for a close election like this” and if “many millions of people… don’t think that their vote was counted accurately,” the results are almost as bad as if an election was rigged, or decided by static charges in a thousand computers.
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/</a>

turbofish · 11-27-2004, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Great link. The only thing I'm really worried about is Putin makes moves to help the 'fairly elected democratic government' with troops.

When the Nazis invaded Ukraine, during WWII, they were seen as liberators of the Soviet... Ukraina really hated their guts... They won't let their sovereignty become doubtable ever again.

Dragonlich · 11-27-2004, 06:10 AM

New development: the Ukrainian parliament, including the current ruling members, declared the elections as invalid. A majority of MPs also passed a vote of no-confidence in the country's Central Elections Commission.

These votes aren't legally binding, but it's a significant development nonetheless.

link: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047421.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047421.stm</a>

Lebell · 11-27-2004, 08:34 AM

Host,

To be honest, I don't follow how my statements "neatly mesh" with anything you've posted.

And as for name calling, I will stand behind what I said and restate that anyone who believes that Kerry actually won the election has taken an unreasonable position in light of current evidence. In other words, given what we know, believing Kerry won is as unreasonable as believing that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, that aliens crashed in Roswell and that Neil Armstrong never went to the moon.

Is it possible that evidence could surface that could make such a belief reasonable?

Yes, of course. Many things are possible, but probable, it doesn't look that way.

So what then do you call someone who blindly takes such a position and holds it without even acknowledging the untenable nature of it?

I call them the loony fringe and will continue to do so.

I also note that I specifically addressed your links that "meshed" by saying that I acknowledge that there were irregularities and that we should be concerned.

I believe that is one of the valuable side effects of "The Fringe". By their bulldoggedness (is that a word?

), they can force us to look at problems that do need solving, such as the possible problems with electronic voting.

Strange Famous · 11-27-2004, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

It's amazing, the mobs of hundreds of thousands of people just partying in the streets as a protest to the way the election was carried out. It's inspiring and puts a bit of hope on an otherwise bleak week in Eurasia.

agreed. The Ukrainian people have provided a lesson that several other countries ought to learn from.

BUT... in this case the media was on the side of the protesters, in the US election for example the media all backed Bush.

Strange Famous · 11-27-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Host,

I will stand behind what I said and restate that anyone who believes that Kerry actually won the election has taken an unreasonable position in light of current evidence. In other words, given what we know, believing Kerry won is as unreasonable as believing that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, that aliens crashed in Roswell and that Neil Armstrong never went to the moon.

Those arent very good arguments, insofar as there is very good evidence that Armstrong didnt step foot on the moon.

As for the Kennedy hit.. anyone who believes three gunshot wounds come from two shots (bullet hits one guy, bounces off his wrist, twists round,. hits other guy, bounces down, hits him somewhere else...) would meet the same ridicule you dish out from many people.

Wherever the second gunman was, I think it is widely accepted that at least five shots were fired at Kennedy (this is proved by recordings from police radio) and Oswald fired two.

Anyway, apologies to creator for thread jack...

Lebell · 11-27-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Those arent very good arguments, insofar as there is very good evidence that Armstrong didnt step foot on the moon.

As for the Kennedy hit.. anyone who believes three gunshot wounds come from two shots (bullet hits one guy, bounces off his wrist, twists round,. hits other guy, bounces down, hits him somewhere else...) would meet the same ridicule you dish out from many people.

Wherever the second gunman was, I think it is widely accepted that at least five shots were fired at Kennedy (this is proved by recordings from police radio) and Oswald fired two.

Anyway, apologies to creator for thread jack...

The Discover channel recently did a show that refuted the multi-shooter theory very well. Particularly interesting was the recreation of the shot that hit Kennedy and then Whatshisname, the Governor. The sound recording was exhaustively analyzed as well. You might want to check it out. (And widely accepted by whom?)

As for the moon shot, if you truely believe that, no comment.

You might not mention your belief to Buzz Aldrin however. He's been known to punch people out who claim he never risked his life and went to the moon.

I stand behind my original statements.

Ustwo · 11-27-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbofish

When the Nazis invaded Ukraine, during WWII, they were seen as liberators of the Soviet... Ukraina really hated their guts... They won't let their sovereignty become doubtable ever again.

Based on what I've read the last two days, I think you are correct. It looks like Russia is backing down and doesn't have a problem with new elections if that is what happens.

Ustwo · 11-27-2004, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

I believe that is one of the valuable side effects of "The Fringe". By their bulldoggedness (is that a word?

), they can force us to look at problems that do need solving, such as the possible problems with electronic voting.

They cause more harm in the long run then good. You have wack jobs who go to great lengths to show the moon landing didn't happen (and since there were several moon landings I guess they were all faked too), aliens are among us, people talk to the dead, a 747 never hit the pentagon, and other nonsense which can infect less trained minds. Its creates 1000's of non-thinking idiots who think protest is good for protests sake, and in the end they end up pretty miserable and worthless human beings not knowing who to believe, trapped in a dream world of misinformation. At best they are just nut jobs at worst they act out on these fantasies and are dangerous.

roachboy · 11-27-2004, 05:11 PM

no no.
it's too easy......

this has been fascinating to watch unfold.

an interesting, relatively in depth article in le monde:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-388631,0.html

same basic story with a bit less complexity:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...361309,00.html

it is interesting that the parliament does not have the legal authority to do what it did....

Dragonlich · 11-28-2004, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

it is interesting that the parliament does not have the legal authority to do what it did....

It's entirely normal that they don't have that power. Imagine a situation where a dictatorial party is in control of parliament, and new presidential elections are held... an opposition candidate wins the elections. Now, if they could, the parliament would declare the election false, and start over (this time making sure their candidate wins).

That's the reason the supreme court has to decide these things - they're supposedly impartial. At least they're more impartial than politicians that openly support one of the candidates.

host · 11-28-2004, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Host,

To be honest, I don't follow how my statements "neatly mesh" with anything you've posted.

You posted this: "don't know of anyone outside of the far left loony fringe that really believes Bush stole the election. Irregularities? Yes. Causes for concern? Yes. But did Kerry actually win? No.

In the Ukraine, it appears that might have actually happened.",

even though, in 2000 you give me the impression that you embraced Bush's
"victory" in Florida, despite that Bush was declared the winner by 537
votes when the SCOTUS issued a ruling at the request of Bush campaign
lawyers to halt the vote counting, followed by an unsigned 5 to 4 SCOTUS
opinion that determined that there was no time to resume and finish the
vote recount, and that specified that the ruling would not be a precedent.

Despite that the Florida state official who certified the vote was highly
partisan and...in addition holding the office of Secretary of State, was also
the State Chairperson of the Bush Campaign. Despite that candidate Bush's
brother was also governor of Florida and was deeply involved in the creation of a unique, controversial, (only a maximum of six other U.S. states use a similar statute to bar convicted felons who have completed their prison sentences, from voting) expensive, and surprisingly inaccurate database,
intended to identify and purge registered voters from the roles of each
county who it identified as convicted felons.

And......even if all the above could be dismissed or ignored in order to accept
the legitimacy of the 2000 Florida voting, the following has been exposed,
since, casting strong doubt on the veracity and integrity of Jeb Bush or of
state election officials, in matters related to the Florida felon purge lists

Quote:

The excuses are scattered amid ruins of voter list plan

By HOWARD TROXLER, Times Columnist
Published July 15, 2004

My question is, did my friends in Gov. Jeb Bush's administration intentionally try to look so goofy over this list of 47,000 names of potential purgees from Florida's voter rolls?

Was there a sale on rubber red noses and floppy shoes down at the Clown Emporium? Was this a plot to keep us all laughing while Karl Rove sneaks into the basement and steals the voting machines?

No sir, no ma'am. They do not get to stand there week after week, all self-righteous, declaring that anybody who questions their list is a fool - they do not get to do it, and then, when the whole ridiculous thing collapses, blithely declare, "Never mind," and walk away whistling like it was ancient history.
This is what the state did:
It came up with a list of 47,000 potential ex-felons to kick off the voter rolls. The Orlando Sentinel reported Wednesday that this list cost taxpayers $2-million, most of that paid to Accenture, a consulting firm with close ties to the Florida Republican Party.

The state spent $125,000 in court, fighting to keep this fatally flawed list secret. This cloak of secrecy, the Secretary of State's office explained with a straight face, was to protect the "privacy" of the people it was proposing to kick off the voter rolls.

The governor and Secretary of State Glenda Hood would have been better stewards of the public's money if they had just put $125,000 in a big pile in the Capitol courtyard and set it on fire.

A judge in Tallahassee ordered the state's list made public - and what happened next is the most beautiful proof I have ever seen of why the Almighty intended for there to be public-records and open-government laws.

Once the secrecy was stripped away from the list, the Miami Herald ascertained that about 2,100 names of those candidates for purging from the voter rolls had already been granted clemency. (No big deal? Remember, the 2000 election in Florida was decided by 537 votes.)

The secretary of state responded that subgroup of people had incorrectly been allowed to register to vote before their clemency was granted. They would have to register all over again, or else they couldn't vote, she declared. That was that.

That was that.
That was that.
(Brief pause.)
What, you can't understand simple English? That was that!
Until it wasn't that.

At the end of business the next day, Hood's office abruptly announced via e-mail that they wouldn't have to re-register after all. (We've always been at war with Eurasia!)
But, wait. It just keeps gettin' better.
Next, our friends at the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, who ought to win some kind of award, discovered another teeny, tiny flaw in the state's list. . . .

No Hispanics.
No Hispanics! Well, okay, something like 60 out of 47,000, when Hispanics make up a fifth of the state's population.

Lots of black guys on there, though.

Brain surgery skills are not required to know that black voters tend to vote Democrat, whereas Hispanic voters, especially in South Florida, tend to vote Republican............

Did they deliberately try to purge blacks and not Hispanics? Nah. It was, as they said, a "database glitch." The state's criminal database doesn't have a category for "Hispanic," but voting records do. So when they tried to match up the two lists, they didn't match.

To recap here: 2-million smackeroonies to match databases that, uh, didn't match.

Already, there is an air of vague irritation that anybody is still complaining about this. "We accept responsibility and we're pulling it back," the governor declared flatly, as if that were that.
I wonder if "accepting responsibility" means he's gonna get our $2-million back, or fire somebody?
It is bad government, regardless of party.
<a href="http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/15/Columns/The_excuses_are_scatt.shtml">http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/15/Columns/The_excuses_are_scatt.shtml</a>

Quote:

HERALD FINDINGS
..................But a Herald investigation found:

• Nearly 40,000 people -- 80 percent of the 50,000 felons released from custody between 2001 and 2003 -- still can't vote. Among those barred from the polls: nonviolent offenders whose crimes warranted little or no prison time, the very people Clemency Board members say should quickly regain their rights.

Josh Craddock, of Boca Raton, was busted at 22 for breaking into a car dealership, his only felony conviction. He has been out of prison for almost three years. Now, he says he's working full time, saving to buy his first house.

According to the state's clemency rules, Craddock's name should have been forwarded to the Clemency Board and he should have heard back by now. He hasn't.

''The state of Florida has made it obvious that my opinion doesn't matter,'' Craddock said.

• The majority of felons released since 2001 can't vote because clemency rules are so restrictive that they all but guaranteed that most wouldn't get their rights back in time to cast a ballot in this presidential election.
<a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/archive/10059491.htm?1c">http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/archive/10059491.htm?1c</a>

Quote:

Jeb's defiance makes case for automatic clemency
Palm Beach Post Editorial
Thursday, July 29, 2004
Gov. Bush is attacking the judiciary with way more than the usual Republican
rhetoric. This time, he's resorted to outright defiance.
The governor couldn't have picked a more revealing way to display his
anti-court venom than by spurning the July 14 opinion of the 1st District Court
of
Appeal in Tallahassee. The court told the state that it must help felons fill
out a form needed to win back the right to vote after serving prison time.
Rather than follow the court's dictate, Gov. Bush eliminated the form.
That's the kind of inexcusable defiance that makes Florida the focal point
for national anxiety over the upcoming presidential election. Secretary of
State Glenda Hood, who was appointed by Gov. Bush and reports to him, already
has
gone too far in defending an indefensible list of nearly 48,000 ex-felons
who may or may not have been banned from voting. Fueling the conspiracy
theories that Ms. Hood says are groundless, nearly half the names on the list
belonged to African-Americans, who tend to vote for Democrats. Fewer than 100
belonged to Hispanics, who vote more often for Republicans than blacks do.
Both
parties are making strong appeals to Hispanic voters.
More than 50,000 felons were released from Florida prisons last year. About
85 percent must apply to get clemency. A year ago, the court found that about
125,000 inmates who completed their terms between 1992 and 2001 -- out of as
many as 700,000 -- had not been properly notified of their right to clemency.
Gov. Bush can't call the appellate court's ruling judicial activism. The
court didn't make the law; the state did. Here is the wording: "The authorized
agent (of the state) shall assist the offender in completing these forms...
before the offender is discharged from supervision." The court "interpreted"
that to mean the state must "assist the offender."
The governor whined that the form duplicates electronic filing methods and
did away with the form. But the governor's plan doesn't order the Department of
Correction to help inmates file electronically before they are discharged.
Instead, it promises only that the state will put a notice in the mail. Rather
than help people as they are about to leave custody, the state proposes
tracking these transient residents after they leave. Additionally, the state
is
finding flaws in its central voter database, which lists all Florida voters.
The errors on that list compounded the difficulty of screening out felons.
The long-term solution is for Floridians to change the state constitution to
automatically restore voting rights of felons. Florida is one of seven
states, including Mississippi and Alabama, that do not grant automatic
clemency.
State legislators chose to offer voters an amendment requiring parental notice
of abortions, not one that would lift the Civil War-era ban on voting rights.
The ban makes Florida look racist and uninterested in democracy. The
governor's actions make him appear to be complicit.

Then, you posted: "In the Ukraine, that might have actually happened",
and Bush is quoted: "There's just a lot of allegations of vote fraud that placed their election, the validity of their elections, in doubt," Bush said. "The international community is watching very carefully. People are paying very close attention to this, and hopefully it will be resolved in a way that brings credit and confidence to the Ukrainian government."

You twice posted: "far left loony fringe that really believes Bush stole the election. Irregularities? Yes. Causes for concern? Yes. But did Kerry actually win? No."

From my point of view, what "neatly meshes", is Bush's hypocrisy.......to
my knowledge, he has never commented on the questionable conduct of his
brother or of two Florida Secretaries of State, but he is quick to talk
about possible voter fraud in Ukraine....... and that "the far left loony
fringe" could possibly include people who recognize Bush's hypocrisy and
the criminality of his brother and Bush's political associates with regard to
manipulation of voter eligibility in Florida in 2000 and 2004.
Did an informed electorate legitimately give Bush a plurality of votes ?

The notion that a majority could be informed and still vote for more of
Bush's "leadership" is what's on the "fringe", IMO.

Strange Famous · 11-28-2004, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

You might not mention your belief to Buzz Aldrin however. He's been known to punch people out who claim he never risked his life and went to the moon.

Yeah, but he's probably pretty old now, so I'd take my chances with him

As for Ukraine, for all the rhetoric, I havent actually seen any real substance to the allegations of electoral fraud. This seems to me more a case of teh West trying to interfere to get the candidate that they want... but I would need to know more of the factual allegations to judge them - which is lacking in all of the various vieled threats from other nations and paranoid claims of the beaten candidate.

Dragonlich · 11-28-2004, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

As for Ukraine, for all the rhetoric, I havent actually seen any real substance to the allegations of electoral fraud. This seems to me more a case of teh West trying to interfere to get the candidate that they want... but I would need to know more of the factual allegations to judge them - which is lacking in all of the various vieled threats from other nations and paranoid claims of the beaten candidate.

Why would this be a Western plot? One could also say that the fraudulent elections were a *Russian* plot to get the candidate they want.

As for the evidence: you might have missed the reports of near-100% voter turnout in pro-government areas, versus a 75% turnout overall. Not necessarily fraud, but very suspicious.

Furthermore, you might have missed the OSCE observers calling the election marred with irregularities. Sure, they may be signs of "the west trying to interfere", but they may be as independent as they say they are... especially given the membership of Russia, and other former USSR countries.

Then there's the fact that Russia now seems to move towards acceptance of new elections. Why would they do that if there was no actual fraud?

Besides, if the Ukrainian parliament itself passes a vote saying the elections were fraudulent, and the election committee was biased, *even with pro-government members present* during the vote, I'd say there's something fishy going on.

But we should probably wait and see what the Ukrainian supreme court decides. They have access to the evidence, where we do not. But then again, they could have been influenced by the West. Or Russia. So any decision is sure to be dismissed by the losing side. We'll see what your eventual response will be - I just hope it's not an automatic "the west did it".

Strange Famous · 11-28-2004, 05:35 AM

Dragonlich, I think you touched on a perhaps more important there... it is getting to the point that whatever happens one side is going to call it fraud, and civil war looks a growing possibility. If the president does not have the confidence of the people, he cannot go forwards, there must be a re-election - but if some of things people are saying are true the opposition leader might not live to see it, the question is - if these plots are real - is he more dangerous dead than alive?

roachboy · 11-28-2004, 10:52 AM

dragonlich: i understood that, but thanks. what i thought was interesting is that the parliament tried this gambit. it seems to have corresponded to the nature of the situation in kiev, but not to the legal framework within which that situation was being processed. as i kinda thought, the move was rejected.

so now you have this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4049949.stm

as my uncle arthur--the eternal 7-year-old--would say, the party's getting rough.

11-24-2004, 12:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
jbuffett Tilted	So let me get this straight... the U.S. is saying Ukraine's election isn't valid because FUCKING EXIT POLLS weren't correct. Excuse me while I ponder the meaning of irony.... __________________ I do blame you for voting for Bush.

11-24-2004, 01:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	pot...kettle..kettle...pot...hope you get aquainted Now, i will probably admit that the Ukraine election was more flawed than the american election, but it just seems so hypocritical __________________ Live. Chris

11-24-2004, 06:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I don't know of anyone outside of the far left loony fringe that really believes Bush stole the election. Irregularities? Yes. Causes for concern? Yes. But did Kerry actually win? No. In the Ukraine, it appears that might have actually happened. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-25-2004, 04:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
energus Tilted Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands (find it on a map, it is there (somewhere))	At the moment it looks like the elections were rigged. I read there were 2.8 million votes messed with in favor of the current president. So it seems that there are some faults, but what will happen? Lets hope it happens peacefully. __________________ Somnia, terrores magicos, miracula, sagas, Nocturnus lemures, portentaque. Horace

11-26-2004, 03:06 AM	#18 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Regarding the US elections, I had the pleasure of taking a class during the election with a Democratic teacher who also works in the Chicago radio news media, so she saw all the exit polls since she was one of the people on her station doing the reporting of the election. She also teaches a class on the art of polling. What happened was not so much that the exit polls were wrong, but that they were read too hastily by many people. The leaked exit polls represented voters from earlier in the day, and it's a known fact that there may be very different trends in voters from different times of the day. Once you get past the conspiracy theories and accept that the exit poll results CNN now shows are the FULL results, it is clear that there is no disparity not within the margin of error. And I know the CNN results are not falsified because of my discussions with my very much Bush-hating teacher about these exit polls, since she was able to witness the election from within a news organization, doing the calling and everything. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

11-24-2004, 01:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
trickyy ►	i guess problems with our election would matter more if it would change the outcome. i hope they improve our system, of course. and our exit polls did not reveal such a nation-wide disparity. that's 11 percentage points of a lead, so it's a 14 point difference from the outcome. over there the fraud may have changed the outcome. the candidate that won is more pro-russia, backed by putin. in case you haven't been paying attention, democracy hasn't been faring so well in russia lately. putin wants to appoint local leaders instead of have them elected. even the communists are complaining about the lack of democratic practice in russia. so we are likely concerned about this election because of the close russian interests.

11-24-2004, 06:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	It's amazing, the mobs of hundreds of thousands of people just partying in the streets as a protest to the way the election was carried out. It's inspiring and puts a bit of hope on an otherwise bleak week in Eurasia.

11-25-2004, 12:31 AM	#7 (permalink)
Super Model Crazy Location: USA	to be realistic, these protests will hurt the Ukrainian economy. I think that they should just do the election again, but properly train the exit poll people, take them to US to learn how exit polls really work, instead of how their boss told them to do it. Exit poll people were brought in by Ushenko (opposition), and they proclamed him winner with 52.7% of the votes. How the exit poll people come up with this % ? : Yakunovic they put 1 on paper, for Ushenko 2...... it looks like this: Yakunovich 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 etc Ushenko 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 etc but when counting, it all just adds up and you get a higher votes. How come there was no single source siting how many votes did the exit polls count? They never released them. A good investigation is in order, to get the facts strait, first of all in these kind of situations. Actions from the current administration are in order. A recount of all the ballats, recount of all the exit poll data, if it was documented at all.

11-25-2004, 02:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
aKula Psycho	From what I heard the international observers weren't too happy about the election either. I believe it was rigged even though I won't trust exit polls.

11-25-2004, 07:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Ukraine is on the "border" between the Western sphere, and the Orthodox Russian sphere. This election is just part of a struggle over that border. In essence, the Ukrainian people are used as pawns in this political and cultural struggle. Given the relatively good relationship between the EU and Russia, Russia will probably try to keep things peaceful; OTOH, they cannot allow Ukraine moving away from them - that'd mean they'd lose power. A compromise solution can be reached if the pro-western opposition promise they won't get too close to the EU.

11-25-2004, 03:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	well, as one of the "looney fringe" that believes Bush almost certainly did lose, I must say that calling an election fraudulent based on exit poll data seems to be the height of hypocrisy coming from an administration in power despite the astronomical odds of "flawed" exit polls running against them. It´s enough proof anywhere else in the world to cast doubt on the outcome. But the US exit polls are flawed. hahahahahahaha Respect to the Ukranian people for at least having the balls to contest this. Too bad the rest of the world are sheep.

11-27-2004, 06:10 AM	#27 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	New development: the Ukrainian parliament, including the current ruling members, declared the elections as invalid. A majority of MPs also passed a vote of no-confidence in the country's Central Elections Commission. These votes aren't legally binding, but it's a significant development nonetheless. link: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047421.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047421.stm</a>

11-27-2004, 08:34 AM	#28 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Host, To be honest, I don't follow how my statements "neatly mesh" with anything you've posted. And as for name calling, I will stand behind what I said and restate that anyone who believes that Kerry actually won the election has taken an unreasonable position in light of current evidence. In other words, given what we know, believing Kerry won is as unreasonable as believing that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, that aliens crashed in Roswell and that Neil Armstrong never went to the moon. Is it possible that evidence could surface that could make such a belief reasonable? Yes, of course. Many things are possible, but probable, it doesn't look that way. So what then do you call someone who blindly takes such a position and holds it without even acknowledging the untenable nature of it? I call them the loony fringe and will continue to do so. I also note that I specifically addressed your links that "meshed" by saying that I acknowledge that there were irregularities and that we should be concerned. I believe that is one of the valuable side effects of "The Fringe". By their bulldoggedness (is that a word? ), they can force us to look at problems that do need solving, such as the possible problems with electronic voting. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-27-2004, 05:11 PM	#34 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	no no. it's too easy...... this has been fascinating to watch unfold. an interesting, relatively in depth article in le monde: http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-388631,0.html same basic story with a bit less complexity: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...361309,00.html it is interesting that the parliament does not have the legal authority to do what it did.... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-27-2004 at 05:16 PM..

11-28-2004, 05:35 AM	#39 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Dragonlich, I think you touched on a perhaps more important there... it is getting to the point that whatever happens one side is going to call it fraud, and civil war looks a growing possibility. If the president does not have the confidence of the people, he cannot go forwards, there must be a re-election - but if some of things people are saying are true the opposition leader might not live to see it, the question is - if these plots are real - is he more dangerous dead than alive? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-28-2004, 10:52 AM	#40 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	dragonlich: i understood that, but thanks. what i thought was interesting is that the parliament tried this gambit. it seems to have corresponded to the nature of the situation in kiev, but not to the legal framework within which that situation was being processed. as i kinda thought, the move was rejected. so now you have this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4049949.stm as my uncle arthur--the eternal 7-year-old--would say, the party's getting rough. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite