ObieX

Why continue to fight it. Lets just all put on our smocks and grab our pricing guns now.

Pride or the lack of it wont help pay for any further education i may need to find a new job when i don't have a job to make money to pay for an education to find a job to make money with. And even if i did come upon this money for an education, then find a job with this education, who's to say in a year or two (which is highly likely in todays economy) that this job wont be outsourced and i won't be looking for a new way to find money to get an education so i can get a new job to make money.

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wnker85

I agree with Konichiwaneko here.

For those over 35, they should have kept up with the times and taught themselves. It doesn't take a new degree to do so; how about reading the newest manual or articles about your field. Then with the updated know how and the experience they should be able to hold on to a job, and if not then they would be able to find a new job.

dksuddeth

In theory, that should work. In reality, thats a completely different story.

Konichiwaneko

My father got into a completely new field 2 months ago and he's 56. Basically he told me

"Son the fire of a challenge is why I changed, it was my own choice and I wanted to work something that made me think."

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hannukah harry

don't forget about the study that had shown so far fewer jobs have still been created than lost, and at an average salary of $9,000 less per year than the old jobs had been paying.

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Locobot

Yeah the Republican job creation plan seems to be have everyone work two or three minimum wage jobs with no benefits. hooray! more jobs!

wnker85

Didn't the reports on job creation say that most of the new jobs that have been created were in the goverment and they have great benefits.

Locobot

no sorry, they didn't. but that was something the Republicans fought against too--remember the Homeland Security Dept. being held up over unionization?

shakran

Come on man, the Information Technology Association of America, who commissioned this study, is a trade group for the IT industry. It represents IT companies. Its job is to increase profits for those companies. It has its own PAC. 30 percent of its workforce are lobbyists AND it employs two other lobbying firms. It's whole reason for being is to advance the interests of the IT industry.

You are NOT going to get an unbiased report from these guys on ANY issue that can effect their clients.

Yet you go and quote the study commissioned by ITAA that amazingly enough says that exporting jobs is good for the economy (failing to mention that it's actually good for the IT companies since they now will make more money now that their tech support team consists of a bunch of guys in India making a dollar or two a day).

Find an unbiased source that says getting rid of jobs is good for the economy and I'll listen - but that's immaterial because no intelligent unbiased source would ever say something so preposterous.

Stompy

The degree thing in the IT field is a myth. You don't need one.. depending on where you work. Programming for MS? Yeah, you'll need one. Square-Enix or Blizzard Entertainment? Yep. Average middle sized business? Nope. Hell, I know programmers who were hired into Ford Motor Company (here in Detroit) with just 3 years of programming experience.

I'm sure the degree helps somewhere, but the majority of the time they hire based on experience. You have a programmer who knows Java, C/C++, ASP, C# (.net), Sql Server, Oracle, DB design, networking, security... and 8 years of experience doing that vs. someone FRESH out of college with a Bachelor's in Comp. Science or Comp. Engineering. I'll bet you any money right now the one without the degree will be hired.

Later on a few years down the road when they're handing out promotions and it comes down to him vs. another programmer with the degree, then yeah, the degree may matter, but it's not a hindrance in helping one find a job.

I know TONS of programmers (myself included) who don't have degrees. In fact, I only have ever met ONE programmer with a degree, and quite honestly, he's not doing much better than I am right now.

I'm going to college now working on my degree, but trust me, I've seen the classes I'll have to take and they won't be teaching me anything that I don't already know or haven't done (well) in all of my years as a programmer. The ONLY thing I'm learning that I don't already know would be the math, and probably some other non-related BS class like chemistry or anthropology.

You may learn a thing or two from the theory classes on programming or design, but nothing you can't learn on your own by reading a few books. Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna get the degree, but I won't be any more "able" or qualified then compared to now.

It really is just a piece of paper.. at least, computer science is.

I've thought about changing my major to biology though.. that's another story. I don't expect to get hired as a scientist without the proper degrees, but being in IT is quite different.

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alansmithee

The problem with the outsorcing of jobs is that there is no real benefits for American laborers OR consumers. Everyone points to lower prices, but this is in the face of lowering real incomes, so actual purchasing power decreases. Also, if you look at the difference between Nike and New Balance, you will find little differece in prices, despite the fact that New Balance is near 100% American employed. Most of the lowered labor costs goes to stockholders and upper management in the form of bonuses or dividends. This problem was talked about in one of my sociology classes, where the American business model since the 60's has been one of increasing profits, while not necessarily increasing production. This has led to stagnation of innovation in many industries and businesses, so when profits are low labor (usually, except in very rare fields, being the highest cost of a business) is the first cost cut by layoffs or outsourcing. This is one of the reasons I'm currently studying Business, because the guys with the MBA's rarely get outsourced (despite the fact that it seems you learn few marketable skills. Honestly when I graduate if someone asks me what I could provide to a company, I can do little more than point at my degree )

America seems to differ from many other economic power in our willingness to sacrifice our middle class. If you are in the "elite" (in parental wealth, intelligence, or any other highly marketable talent) the US is the best place to be. But America is having a problem involving the average person. In other countries, developing a good middle class is seen as a priority.

stevo

You know. Ustwo has a lot of points that seem to go ignored by the most of you. I'll paraphrase:

1. Its a global market (and that goes for the labor market too). Supply and demand work both ways. The IT folks were getting paid so much in the 90s because there was a high demand for IT labor and a small supply of it. This resulted in high IT wages. The youngsters took a cue, learned IT, entered the IT labor market, thus increasing the supply of IT labor. This puts downward pressure on IT wages. Now if the US closed its economy to foreign IT labor those foreign workers would be doing the same thing for a new firm in another country. That firm would be producing cheaper goods as a result of cheaper labor. Those goods would compete with US goods and cause the US IT firm to loose profits, lay off workers, or possibly go out of business. Closing your economy is a sure way to damn it.

2. I think I covered a few of Ustwo's points in there. I'll read this thread again later and add more if I need to.

smooth

I think that instead of cutting taxes and hoping or waiting for the creation of jobs in the US, tax breaks should be tied to creating jobs in the US and/or providing education to workers (even OTJT) as well as manufacturing products domestically.


The problem with this is that labels don't quite tell us what's going on. If something is produced in another country, but assembled in some way in the US, slap goes the US label. Corporations in our territories can use US labels, too.

Case in point, your Invisalign is headquartered in Santa Clara, CA.

BTW, you might be happy to know that they closed their Pakistan and UAE factories two years ago according to this:

-- Business Week Online

It looks like they are produced in Costa Rica and the US.

I don't understand how this equates to outsourcing your particular job, however. I wondered the same thing BOR asked, but didn't realize he had actually asked it until now.


EDIT: here is a more detailed explanation about "Made in the USA" claims:

-- http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm

It doesn't seem to be quite as easy as I initially thought. But I also don't know how this is enforced. Is it through customer research and complaint? I don't know, but there are two main ways to claim USA sourcing: unqualified (somewhat loosely defined) and qualified (more tightly defined).

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sob

Since I have no particular strong emotions about this topic, I'm going to break tradition and try to ask some non-inflammatory questions in regard to your post.

Do you not think that under your scenario, businesses that are unable to receive these tax breaks will be put at even more of a competitive disadvantage in regard to foreign competition?


I would say it equates to a high-tech company outsourcing its engineering work to India.

joemc91

Outsourcing doesn't bother me as much as others mostly because many companies are getting burned by it, such as Dell. What I am more concerned with are companies that do the majority, if not all, of their work in the US but are incorporated in another country such as the Grand Caymans. Here we have companies getting all the benefits of working in the United States and by incorporating off-shore skirting obligations to abide by US laws and being accountable to the citizens who use their products.

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quicksteal

This isn't the same issue as outsourcing unskilled labor. Does anyone have proof that foreign workers get paid significantly less for a job in IT? Our universities are bringing these students in and spending (many times public) money to educate them. We'd like to think that these are the best and brightest from abroad, although where I am I'm not too impressed with many of the international graduate students I've met. Either way, these companies naturally want to hire the best workers--and that's good for our GDP. If international students are more qualified, then what do you expect?

And I defy you to find a biochemist without a high school (or college) education. I agree that the degree is just a sheet of paper, but I couldn't imagine getting that kind of education (especially learning how to work in a lab) outside a university setting.

smooth

If it helps, I don't think students from abroad have access to public money.

Their (and out of state students) tuition costs subsidize in-state students. That's how it works in California, anway.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman