OFKU0

Here are a couple of more examples of soldiers gone awry.


UN peacekeepers in Congo face sex-crimes probe
Last Updated Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:06 EST

UNITED NATIONS - The United Nations is investigating 150 allegations of sexual abuse by its soldiers and staff in Congo.

The accusations include rape, pedophilia and soliciting prostitutes in Congo, formerly known as Zaire.

"It's important that those missions be above reproach," said Jane Lute, assistant secretary general for peacekeeping operations.

The probe, which began after the allegations surfaced last year, has uncovered video footage and photographs to support some of the complaints, Lute said on Monday.

She said investigators are now checking to see if similar problems exist in the 15 other UN peacekeeping missions worldwide.

It's not the first time the peacekeepers have been accused of sexual exploitation. Two years ago, a UN probe rejected similar allegations by refugees in West Africa.

The United Nations can do little to punish peacekeepers who commit crimes, because any prosecutions are up to the countries that sent them on the mission.

The UN mission to Congo, which began in 1999, has about 10,500 soldiers and 1,000 civilian staff from 50 countries.

Written by CBC News Online staff

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...un-041123.html

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Israeli officer charged over slain Gaza girl
Last Updated Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:52:58 EST

JERUSALEM - Israel has charged an army captain who was accused of riddling a Palestinian girl's body with bullets after she was already dead.

A military spokesperson said the officer was charged Tuesday with two counts of illegally using his weapon, and one count each of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer and improper use of authority.

The officer, who has not been identified, has been suspended.

Israeli troops shot the 13-year-old girl, Iyman Hams, on Oct. 5 as she walked toward a military observation post close to the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip.

The soldiers said they thought she was planting a bomb, but her family maintained she was on her way to school.

Soldiers later said their commander then walked over to the girl and shot her repeatedly as she lay on the ground.

It's not known if the girl was already dead. Palestinian hospital officials say she was shot at least 15 times.

It isn't clear how much jail time the captain could face if convicted.

The case reignited claims by human-rights groups and Palestinians that Israeli troops are unnecessarily violent in the West Bank and Gaza.

Written by CBC News Online staff

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...hot041122.html
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I have an idea of what people will say. What I would like discussed is why is this a problem that keeps rearing it's ugly head. Obviously this isn't quarantined to any one countries soldiers and not to the soldiers in the majority who find these acts despicable.

So what is it? A few rogue soldiers who are stressed and snap? A criminal characteristic that exists but is exposed in stressed military situations.( In the UN case,if not soldiers, would these men be more predisposed to rape?) Perhaps it is the training they receive? If so does that training quantify something different in different people?

I'm sure that being in an environment dealing with death on a daily basis desensitisizes those involved, but I'm not willing to only except that these actions are as a result strictly of their environment. I think through military training, aggressive behaviours are taught and that for some it is the right button to be pushed that allows criminal behaviour to exist. What does anyone else think the problem is or where it originates?

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Bill O'Rights

Personally, I think this subject has been done to death. However, In response to your query, I'll quote myself from another thread.
Are we offering up anything new here? Other than the fact that this aboration is not strictly confined to the United States?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

OFKU0

Yes. I'm trying to understand why some soldiers act this way and why the majority don't. My query asked of criminal behavioural tendencies that may be lurking in some soldiers and possibly are drawn out during combat as a result of that training.

I'm just wondering that perhaps someone has some experience with military training and combat that may enlighten those of us who haven't, so that we can try to understand these circumstances a little more clearly.

As you stated,99.9% of the TFP will never understand the mental duress that drives this behavior. That is what I would like to explore that being if anyone can explain it cohesively.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

archer2371

Why do some people murder while the majority don't? It's a deep psychological question that would best be resolved on a couch or in a court room. My simple answer, there are bad people everywhere and they will surface and we'll hear all about it. But Bill is right, we can't just lay the judgment on 'em without being in their shoes, it's just impossible, because we will never understand. We'll shake our heads and wonder why, but the truth is that we probably can't get an answer for it, as much as we would like to.

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

Bill O'Rights

Fair enough.
What you pose is certainly a possibility. I, however, think it more likely that it's more stress induced, than latent criminal behavior.
What I don't want to see here, is another soldier bashing thread. We already have too many of those.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Manx

Or not enough. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

MSD

Why was soliciting prostitutes put alongside rape and paedophilia?

Bill O'Rights

Here we go again.

Because they couldn't get the booger flicking charge to...stick. sorry. Because to many, prostitution is an afront to God and society. To me...it's a much healthier(?) way for soldiers to take care of thier...needs, than the other two alternatives offered. But, that's just me.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Manx

Hey, don't blame me. You reposted the same nonsense I responded to in the other thread.

How many Eeeevil Terrorist threads do we have? Do we need another one?

Maybe.

smooth

Most likely the prostitutes (and rape victims) were underage.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

smooth

If you watch some videos on the making of an enemy, you will find that state propoganda is utilized to dehumanize the opposition. This permeates the popular media, as well as military training and bleeds out into popular discourse. Looking at the historical record of war after war, you will find atrocities committed by both soldiers and citizens against the "enemy."

That would be the first place to look, in my opinion, rather than personal traits.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

oktjabr

Probably.

Anyway, considering that the stress is a factor and so on...what is strange to me is that the officers fail to maintain the discipline to prevent this kind of behaviour (though for example what I have read about Chechenyan conflict, corrupt officers in the Federal army simply participate in this shit). Anyway, I can't see why we couldn't discuss about this subject just because we don't have any experience (99,9% of us, at least) of wartime duty.

If you ask me, I'd stress the responsibility of the higher-ranking.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

KMA-628

You cannot become enlightened unless you experience it firsthand. Sorry, there is just no decent way to explain.

Suffice it to say, your reality changes when in the military/combat/combat zones/etc. The reality you knew disapears and is replaced by a whole new one.

I dunno, it is very hard to describe. I did many things and acted in many ways that I would never even consider "normal" as a civilian. But, at the time, it was "normal". I don't, however, condone such activity, but in a very strange way, I can understand it.

Edit: Imagine spending 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in a situation/scenario/location where your life is at stake at all times. You can't help but let it effect you and, yes, you do get very, very warped at times.

Manx

If something creates a new "reality" that enables you to perform these types of actions, then there is a serious problem with that something. How it is managed, the mentality of the types of people who become involved in it, etc.

Whether I have been in combat is entirely irrelevant. If you shoot an injured man in the head, if you rape an enemy woman, etc - you are a mentally deranged individual who needs to be behind bars. And if it happens often, a complete overhaul of the something which produces it is most definitely in order.

KMA-628

I would say the two are very different scenarios. I would never, ever condone rape.

however, killing an injured man in a hostile situation where many "injured" men have been boobie traps (a common scenario), is, at times, justifiable and not worthy of prison. That being said, had I been in a similar situation, I may have pulled the trigger too. You never know if they have pulled the pin on a grenade and just waiting for the chance to release it. Your primary job in the service is to protect yourself and your buddies.

Whether you have been anywhere near combat is very relevant. Not for the rape, but for the other scenario you posed. Rape is never acceptable, in my book, never.

martinguerre

Indeed...the realities of combat are surely staggering. To me, this is the strongest reason for working for just peace. As much as we try to professionalize the business of killing, it is still killing. There are times when it is unavoidable. But we should never underestimate the cost of war when making the decision of if we can make peace.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Fred181

That "something" is combat and you are exactly right, there is a serious problem with it. Few people want a war, however in our current society it exists. Can we manage it? Yes. I think if you examine the conflicts of the past couple of decades versus the conflicts of the past few centuries the atrocities commited today are much fewer and minor (note: I don't consider rape and murder minor, however compared to the burning and raping of whole villages/ civilizations they are).

As to the original question. I think there are two aspects to it.

1) the military, be it the US Military or that of another country, is a type of cross section of the whole society. In it you will find the thieves and rapists that you would find in any other occupation i.e. construction workers, bankers etc.

2) The individuals that may not be "pre-disposed" to abnormal activities, yet commit them none-the-less are as KMA-628 stated under a type of stress that all of us whom have never been in the situation could never comprehend. I do not think that these actions are a result of any kind of training that they recieve; they are a result of being in a fucked up situation.

__________________
My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

Manx

Not good enough. Every soldier does not experience these shifts in reality that propel them to commit these acts. So it is not simply combat which is the "something".

Manx

No it is not. I have never been oppressed like the thousands of Arabs in the Middle East - but I do not offer that as a justification for a terrorists' actions. I condemn a terrorist regardless of the hell that their life has been - and I condemn the soldier who shoots an injured man in the head, tortures prisoners, or holds prisoners for years with no recourse - regardless of the hell that they have experienced, and I have not, on a field of combat.

Seaver

Really? If you saw a dying man laying on the ground, and your best friend kneeled down to help him, and he blew himself up, injuring yourself and killing your friend... you woudnt be touchy the next time it happened?

There are no universal rights or wrongs. How about saying it's not ok to shoot anyone under any circumstances... and you see your wife being raped and you have a gun in your hand. Hard to say at that time you dont believe in killing people wouldnt it?

Manx

Seaver - catch yourself up on the events.

And I'll refrain from responding to the baseless comparison of torture/murder to protecting my wife. You might as well be claiming that anything and everything is ok.

Again - whether I have been in combat has nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of justifications for these types of behavior.

ubertuber

This sounds nice, but... If you want to do something about the fact that terrorists are coming from these situations you'll first need to understand the context that produces the aberrations. Similarly, if you want to understand why some soldiers act in ways that are outside of the boundaries even of wartime conduct, you should look at the context they live in. Condemnation is adequate for Monday morning quarterbacking, but won't get anyone anywhere if you want to understand or influence the circumstance in question. I'm not saying that stress or "reality-substitution" is an acceptable excuse or justification, but denying that this is a factor only serves to impede understanding.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Manx

Monday morning quaterbacking is all I am afforded as a citizen of the U.S. - plus the marginalized thing we call "voting".

Most certainly we should look at the why's and wherefore's of both terrorists and masochistic soldiers in order to properly address those aberations. But that is not what we do.

This is what we do:

1- Denounce the inhumanity of terrorists as the ultimate in inexcusable behavior.
2- Defend the hardships of the masochistic soldier as a nearly acceptable by-product of combat exposure.

It's absurd.

Since I am relegated to Monday morning quaterbacking, that is exactly what I shall do.

KMA-628

I will agree 100% with this statement. Something in addition to being in combat usually sets off this behavior. However, the combat-zone environment sets the stage.

Kind of like a killer that has a horrible youth (abuse, etc.). Something else might set them off to actually kill, but the original environment set the stage.

Oddly enough, people that usually go this far wouldn't have done anything remotely like this as a civilian (not always the case, granted, every division of every branch of the military has its nutjobs). Taken out of the combat situation, the actions would never have happened. However, in the "zone", these things do happen. Why? I have no freakin' clue. But something about being out there does something to people and it affects everybody differently.

I had a buddy of mine go Section 8. Nice kid, very trustworthy, great worker, etc. Then one day, whammo, he's gone (in his head). It was very sad and troubling to watch this happen to a very good friend of yours. Oh yeah, when were in the Gulf when it happened - go figure. Had he not been in the service, he probably would've made it his entire life without so much as a hiccup.

KMA-628

On a side-note, there are a couple of good things about combat:

Tax-free pay, hazardous duty pay and free mail, woohoo!

/very, very sarcastic

tecoyah

I am of the opinion, that those with experience and knowledge concerning something of interest to me, should be listened to. I value the opinions of scientists in many fields, because they have done the hard work of research for me, and the benefits are mine for the reading.
I value, and accept the opinions of those who have gone into combat for me, because they have lived it and are willing to share the experience, thus giving me the insight to understand a little of the reality. People do bad things....some guy just shot an entire family in Wisconsin, for a fucking treestand. I can only imagine what stresses are created by daily risks, and threats of combat, and I am quite happy to "only" imagine it.
I would be totally out of line to think I have the right to tell someone they are wrong....without fully understanding the question. Do I think the treatment of Iraqis, in this war is wrong...Yes. It is a War and people will die in brutally disgusting ways....every freakin' day. I am not at all happy about this, but it is still the reality.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha