The probable murder of Margaret Hassan - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 11-20-2004, 07:09 AM

Whoever is responsible for this, what they have done is contary to any of their stated aims.

They claim to represent Iraqi's, but they have made all Iraqi's ashamed.

They have made the situation far worse for ordinary Iraqi people... as the situation deteroiates and humaniterian crisis looms, what aid agency would stay to help when they risk kidnap and murder?

Margaret Hassan was not only against the occupation, she gave the majority of her life to helping and working for the Iraqi people - to be killed by those claiming to represent Iraq is disgusting and tragic. Those responsible shall never be forgiven, I hpe that their organisation and the individuals responsible within it are destroyed, are no longer existing.

I know that people are dying in Iraq in every day, and the untimely death of any one person should not be any more tragic than another - but this really is a terrible crime, it has drastically reduced the sympathy that any people can feel for the resistance/insurgents as a whole.

If anyone doesnt know who she was, here is a link to one of many stories:

Quote:

Last Updated: Wednesday, 17 November, 2004, 16:33 GMT

Iraqis voice revulsion over killing
By Richard Galpin
BBC News, Baghdad

The people on the streets of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, are filled with revulsion at the apparent murder of the aid worker Margaret Hassan.
Local television stations and Arabic satellite channels began broadcasting the news on Tuesday night.

Billboards in Baghdad had called for Mrs Hassan's release

Iraqis we spoke to condemned the brutal killing, describing it as a crime against humanity.

"She devoted her life to serve the Iraqi people and help them in difficult times," said Ali Najem a resident of central Baghdad.

He said: "We considered her to be an Iraqi citizen. The criminals who did this want to spoil the image of Iraq and spoil the efforts now under way to hold elections."

Inside a dingy room nearby, a large family sits around the television. Among them is 14-year-old Iman Ahmed.

She should be at school but her mother has told her to stay at home because she fears she could be kidnapped if she walks the city streets.

According to Iman, Mrs Hassan was a well-known figure in the capital and other parts of the country.

"Did Margaret come here with the American soldiers to fight? No "

Iman Ahmed

She says: "Did Margaret come here with the American soldiers to fight? No, she came here to help the Iraqi people. Many people liked her because she helped us."

Across the road, in a run-down building housing a large electricity transformer, elderly Abu Akram folds up his prayer-mat and comes to speak to us.

He is disgusted by the unknown gang of gunmen who abducted Mrs Hassan four weeks ago as she was being driven to work in the capital.

He says: "The people who did this are not in any way related to Islam because Islam respects women. Everyone has to work together to fight these terrorists."

As we return to our office, we meet Dr Kaydar Al-Chalabi, the director of a Baghdad hospital which specialises in spinal injuries.

Civilian deaths

He spent the past 15 months working with Mrs Hassan who, through her aid agency Care International, rebuilt his hospital which was looted after the war and then badly damaged in a bombing.

He says: "If Margaret Hassan is dead, it really is a great loss not just for her family but for the whole of Iraq.

"What she offered to Iraq was beyond imagination, she really felt the suffering of the people.

"She was not just director of Care International, she ran everywhere she was needed - whether it was a patient, a child, a hospital, or a water purification project, she was the first there with her staff," he added.

But amid the sorrow here, some people also wanted to remind us of the daily death toll of innocent Iraqi civilians caught up in the fighting and bombings across the country.

Thousands have died since the invasion in March last year, but their deaths largely go unreported by the international media.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4020159.stm

Quote:

Profile: Margaret Hassan

Mrs Hassan warned that war in Iraq could cause a humanitarian crisis
Dublin-born charity worker Margaret Hassan moved to Iraq 30 years ago, and began working for Care International soon after it began operations there in 1991.
When she was kidnapped, she had been head of the charity's operations in the country for some 12 years.

Married to an Iraqi, Mrs Hassan has Irish, British and Iraqi nationality.

Her friend Felicity Arbuthnot, a film-maker who has travelled to Iraq to document Mrs Hassan's work, described her as "an extraordinary woman".

"She is one of those slender people with a spine of steel," she said.

"She stayed there through the 1991 war, the bombings last year, all the horrors of the embargo.

"She has tremendous presence. If there is anybody who can build a rapport with whoever these people are, she will," Ms Arbuthnot said.

Everywhere she went, people just beamed

Film-maker Felicity Arbuthnot

She said she had once travelled with Mrs Hassan to a water sanitation plant in a poor area of Iraq and seen her effect on the local people she was helping.

"A crowd gathered and tiny children rushed up and threw their arms round her knees, saying, 'Madam Margaret, Madam Margaret,' and everywhere she went, people just beamed.

"She was so loved and everybody was so open with her and this is what makes it so extraordinary."

Robert Glasser, chief executive of Care Australia, said: "It is important to note that she has been providing humanitarian relief to the most needy Iraqis in a professional career spanning more than 25 years.

"She has been on the ground helping the poor in Iraq for over 25 years."

Humanitarian warning

Mrs Hassan warned MPs shortly before last year's war that Iraq could face a humanitarian catastrophe in the event of a conflict.

She said UN sanctions had left the Iraqi people in a worse situation than they had been at the end of the first Gulf War in 1991.

"The Iraqi people are already living through a terrible emergency," she told a House of Commons briefing.

"They do not have the resources to withstand an additional crisis brought about by military action."

We call for whoever is holding her hostage to think of her family and the good work she is doing in Iraq

Ideel Jafferi, Islamic Relief

Mrs Hassan chose to stay in Iraq during the war, and told the Newcastle Journal on the eve of the conflict that she was "sad" Britain was taking part.

She added she did not fear being targeted in revenge attacks by Iraqis.

Medical aid

International relief and development charity Islamic Relief, based in Birmingham, joined calls for Mrs Hassan's safe release.

She spoke to its members about Iraq in 2002, before the war, describing how a formerly prosperous nation had been systematically reduced to poverty.

Islamic Relief spokesman Ideel Jafferi said staff prayed for her after her kidnap.

Care International is the world's largest humanitarian relief agency, with a presence in 72 countries.

It has focused efforts in Iraq since the war on providing emergency relief and medical aid, and restoring access to clean water.

More than 30 staff, all Iraqis, work in its Baghdad office.

oktjabr · 11-20-2004, 07:57 AM

Her death is an immense tragedy. I'm puzzled what the hostage takers think they can achive by killing off aid organization workers? Seems like a blatant "PR-error" to me - even though all beheadings of hostages of course are.

daswig · 11-20-2004, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oktjabr

Seems like a blatant "PR-error" to me - even though all beheadings of hostages of course are.

Childish and insulting statement removed

/ducks and covers........... did not duck fast enough

oktjabr · 11-20-2004, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

Maybe they just have something against women who look like horses.

/ducks and covers

That is very witty and funny.

Dragonlich · 11-20-2004, 09:52 AM

It's really simple, actually. You have to remember you're not dealing with normal people here; they have a fundamentally different point of view.

First and foremost, Hassan represents the foreign (western) aid organizations, which are "obviously" backed by western governments. Through these organizations, western (/zionist) governments are influencing the poor Muslim population.

Secondly, the aid organizations are a direct threat to the extremists' own organizations (see Hamas, for instance). What these extremists want is a monopoly on aid for the poor, just like they have in parts of Africa and the middle-east. The goal: To produce more willing recruits for their cause.

That, and she was a Zionist spy, of course, just like all foreign captives...

smooth · 11-20-2004, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonlich

It's really simple, actually. You have to remember you're not dealing with normal people here; they have a fundamentally different point of view.

I don't agree with this because I think it's more accurate to recognize that we are dealing with a hetergenous population, rather than abnormal people.

We don't have any evidence that she was killed by Iraqis or people claiming to represent Iraqis.

More likely she was killed by people who don't care about Westerners or Iraqis for that matter, such as, Jordanians.

Strange Famous · 11-20-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

Maybe they just have something against women who look like horses.

/ducks and covers

that wasnt an especially worthwhile contribution.

doncalypso · 11-20-2004, 01:27 PM

I think it's a shame that this woman got killed by those insurgents when she put her neck out to serve and help the Iraqi people.

phredgreen · 11-20-2004, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

Maybe they just have something against women who look like horses.

/ducks and covers

after repeated warnings to contribute, daswig has been removed from the tfp for the next ten days. anyone else who thinks that a smart-assed comment, a bad joke at the expense of others, or blatant insults are gonna fly, remember that we aren't going to put up with that kind of shit.

Boo · 11-20-2004, 02:51 PM

Back to the original post:

I am bewildered by the actions of these people. What rational can they give? How can this action benefit their cause?

My other voice says:

We need to hunt them down and remove their likes from the earth.

smooth · 11-20-2004, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo

Back to the original post:

I am bewildered by the actions of these people. What rational can they give? How can this action benefit their cause?

My other voice says:

We need to hunt them down and remove their likes from the earth.

Their rationale seems to be that they are at war with the US and don't particularly care about Iraqis.

I'll repeat that there isn't any evidence to suggest these kidnappers were Iraqi.

What is so difficult in understanding that not all Mid-Eastern nationals (if they are even those) are bonded to one another in any way other than they are all fighting the same enemy? It's not as though many people should be surprised that an Iranian or Jordanian militant would care about the life of an Iraqi (or Irish, for that matter) woman's life other than the utility she serves as a bargaining chip.

Ustwo · 11-20-2004, 05:01 PM

I think the problem here, which some have pointed out is that we are not fighting the Iraqi’s per say but the radical Islamists who have come to Iraq, mostly through Syria. These are not people who see things in terms of western values or western rules of war. You may come with the best intentions, just wanting to help people, without any regard to the government or politics, but to them you are a western Christian enemy, a threat to their dominance though your very existence, and a threat because your selfless work sets an example of the West they do not want the populous to see.

By killing her they would hope to send the message to others who would come to help to stay away.

Does it hurt their cause? Yes, but their cause is warped and by our standards evil.

irateplatypus · 11-20-2004, 10:54 PM

this is why i think the world has come to the point where any approach but one of immense force is doomed to fail. the people who will murder an aid worker will not respond to gentler diplomacy or more cultural understanding. this woman was the poster child for such efforts and was brutally murdered. although they have their own rational and worldview, we must recognize that our existence does offend the most extreme elements of this radical movement. when President Bush expresses understanding of this, a lot of people get their pants in a twist.

sometimes it's not about understanding, sometimes it's about survival. sometimes there really is a good side and an evil side. we aren't always on the good side by virtue of being Americans... but we must not lose our ability to discern, name, and kill off what is evil in the world.

the murder of margaret hassan gives me confidence in the justness of our purpose.

joeshoe · 11-20-2004, 11:18 PM

This murder will hurt the insurgents' cause even more.

I agree with DragonLich. While to us the murder of an aid worker is horrible, they don't see her as anything other than a Westerner trying to interfere in their country. I realize that the population is heterogenous and not every Iraqi would think this, but those who are still fighting obviously do. Why else would they continue to execute civilian workers from countries other than the U. S.? They don't care who they're killing.

Ustwo · 11-21-2004, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeshoe

This murder will hurt the insurgents' cause even more.

I agree with DragonLich. While to us the murder of an aid worker is horrible, they don't see her as anything other than a Westerner trying to interfere in their country. I realize that the population is heterogenous and not every Iraqi would think this, but those who are still fighting obviously do. Why else would they continue to execute civilian workers from countries other than the U. S.? They don't care who they're killing.

I wouldn't put it as interfering with 'their' country.

It appears that most of the executioners are not Iraqi.

Dragonlich · 11-21-2004, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I wouldn't put it as interfering with 'their' country.

It appears that most of the executioners are not Iraqi.

To extremist Muslims (and many ordinary ones), the whole Islamic world is one "country". So in that sense, they do see it as their country.

Lebell · 11-21-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonlich

To extremist Muslims (and many ordinary ones), the whole Islamic world is one "country". So in that sense, they do see it as their country.

Indeed.

And as they grow in population in other countries, they seem to start thinking that THAT is their country too, and should be under Sharia (as the Netherlands is finding out).

pedro padilla · 11-21-2004, 06:58 PM

The murder of Margaret Hassan has been widely reported as the work of them damn "insurgents". A fluently Iraqi speaking muslim woman living in the country for more than 30 years. Outspoken critic of both Saddam and the US occupation of HER country. Vocal critic of "prime minister" Allawi and the pseudo Iraqi army. Director of CARE, a humanitarian charity dedicated to bettering the lives of her fellow iraqi citizens. Kidnapped.
All combined resistance groups in Fallujah as well as Zarqawi (public enemy no. 2) demanded her immediate release. The woman was untouchable.
Who stands to make out here? A high profile vocal opponent of the current policy enforcers silenced and out of the way. Another screaming Fox news headline testifying as to the inhumane brutality of the insurgent animals?
Then again. it could be crackheads.

Ustwo · 11-21-2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

The murder of Margaret Hassan has been widely reported as the work of them damn "insurgents". A fluently Iraqi speaking muslim woman living in the country for more than 30 years. Outspoken critic of both Saddam and the US occupation of HER country. Vocal critic of "prime minister" Allawi and the pseudo Iraqi army. Director of CARE, a humanitarian charity dedicated to bettering the lives of her fellow iraqi citizens. Kidnapped.
All combined resistance groups in Fallujah as well as Zarqawi (public enemy no. 2) demanded her immediate release. The woman was untouchable.
Who stands to make out here? A high profile vocal opponent of the current policy enforcers silenced and out of the way. Another screaming Fox news headline testifying as to the inhumane brutality of the insurgent animals?
Then again. it could be crackheads.

Oh this is rich, it must have been the Iraqi government or the US.

Do you honnestly buy this or are you just trying to play devils advocate. You are willing to believe known murderers yet assume the worst of the US. Someone sold you a wonderful line of propaganda.

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 02:22 PM

actually I don´t buy those beautiful lines of propaganda. My point is that the majority does. hook line and sinker. Exactly whose lines are you swallowing?

Connolly · 11-25-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

actually I don´t buy those beautiful lines of propaganda. My point is that the majority does. hook line and sinker. Exactly whose lines are you swallowing?

The majority believes the US killed Ms. Hassan?

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 05:19 PM

nah. I was referring to the majority just swallowing whatever story they´re fed. Not a lot of questioning of official versions of events these days. and it´s needed more than ever. Like I said, could be crackheads. I just hesitate to accept any story reeking of anti insurgent propaganda in these times of questionably biased journalism.

Strange Famous · 11-27-2004, 07:46 AM

I cannot believe that the US govt could be responsible for this crime, although I would believe that the Iraqi govt could do it. But for the US military to be involved - regadless of the innate evil - it would be an incredible risk for no real material gain - if it was ever discovered it would create an unprecedented backlash.

11-20-2004, 07:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
oktjabr Crazy Location: Fünland	Her death is an immense tragedy. I'm puzzled what the hostage takers think they can achive by killing off aid organization workers? Seems like a blatant "PR-error" to me - even though all beheadings of hostages of course are. __________________ "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever." -G.O.

11-20-2004, 01:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
doncalypso TFP Mad Scientist Location: Philadelphia, PA	I think it's a shame that this woman got killed by those insurgents when she put her neck out to serve and help the Iraqi people. __________________ Doncalypso... the one and only Haitian Sensation

11-20-2004, 02:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
Boo Leave me alone! Location: Alaska, USA	Back to the original post: I am bewildered by the actions of these people. What rational can they give? How can this action benefit their cause? My other voice says: We need to hunt them down and remove their likes from the earth. __________________ Back button again, I must be getting old.

11-20-2004, 05:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I think the problem here, which some have pointed out is that we are not fighting the Iraqi’s per say but the radical Islamists who have come to Iraq, mostly through Syria. These are not people who see things in terms of western values or western rules of war. You may come with the best intentions, just wanting to help people, without any regard to the government or politics, but to them you are a western Christian enemy, a threat to their dominance though your very existence, and a threat because your selfless work sets an example of the West they do not want the populous to see. By killing her they would hope to send the message to others who would come to help to stay away. Does it hurt their cause? Yes, but their cause is warped and by our standards evil. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-20-2004, 10:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	this is why i think the world has come to the point where any approach but one of immense force is doomed to fail. the people who will murder an aid worker will not respond to gentler diplomacy or more cultural understanding. this woman was the poster child for such efforts and was brutally murdered. although they have their own rational and worldview, we must recognize that our existence does offend the most extreme elements of this radical movement. when President Bush expresses understanding of this, a lot of people get their pants in a twist. sometimes it's not about understanding, sometimes it's about survival. sometimes there really is a good side and an evil side. we aren't always on the good side by virtue of being Americans... but we must not lose our ability to discern, name, and kill off what is evil in the world. the murder of margaret hassan gives me confidence in the justness of our purpose. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-20-2004, 09:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	It's really simple, actually. You have to remember you're not dealing with normal people here; they have a fundamentally different point of view. First and foremost, Hassan represents the foreign (western) aid organizations, which are "obviously" backed by western governments. Through these organizations, western (/zionist) governments are influencing the poor Muslim population. Secondly, the aid organizations are a direct threat to the extremists' own organizations (see Hamas, for instance). What these extremists want is a monopoly on aid for the poor, just like they have in parts of Africa and the middle-east. The goal: To produce more willing recruits for their cause. That, and she was a Zionist spy, of course, just like all foreign captives...

11-20-2004, 11:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
joeshoe Crazy Location: California	This murder will hurt the insurgents' cause even more. I agree with DragonLich. While to us the murder of an aid worker is horrible, they don't see her as anything other than a Westerner trying to interfere in their country. I realize that the population is heterogenous and not every Iraqi would think this, but those who are still fighting obviously do. Why else would they continue to execute civilian workers from countries other than the U. S.? They don't care who they're killing.

11-21-2004, 06:58 PM	#18 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	The murder of Margaret Hassan has been widely reported as the work of them damn "insurgents". A fluently Iraqi speaking muslim woman living in the country for more than 30 years. Outspoken critic of both Saddam and the US occupation of HER country. Vocal critic of "prime minister" Allawi and the pseudo Iraqi army. Director of CARE, a humanitarian charity dedicated to bettering the lives of her fellow iraqi citizens. Kidnapped. All combined resistance groups in Fallujah as well as Zarqawi (public enemy no. 2) demanded her immediate release. The woman was untouchable. Who stands to make out here? A high profile vocal opponent of the current policy enforcers silenced and out of the way. Another screaming Fox news headline testifying as to the inhumane brutality of the insurgent animals? Then again. it could be crackheads.

11-25-2004, 02:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	actually I don´t buy those beautiful lines of propaganda. My point is that the majority does. hook line and sinker. Exactly whose lines are you swallowing?

11-25-2004, 05:19 PM	#22 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	nah. I was referring to the majority just swallowing whatever story they´re fed. Not a lot of questioning of official versions of events these days. and it´s needed more than ever. Like I said, could be crackheads. I just hesitate to accept any story reeking of anti insurgent propaganda in these times of questionably biased journalism.

11-27-2004, 07:46 AM	#23 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I cannot believe that the US govt could be responsible for this crime, although I would believe that the Iraqi govt could do it. But for the US military to be involved - regadless of the innate evil - it would be an incredible risk for no real material gain - if it was ever discovered it would create an unprecedented backlash. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas