OFKU0

Thu, November 18, 2004

Soldiers accused of grisly games

Israel probes reports of post-mortem atrocities

By AP

JERUSALEM -- Young Israeli soldiers systematically desecrate the bodies of dead Palestinian militants, playing with body parts and posing for souvenir photographs with bullet-riddled cadavers, an Israeli newspaper's Internet site reported yesterday. The report on the Yediot Ahronot daily's site comes at a delicate moment in relations between Israel and the Palestinians following the death of Yasser Arafat.

SYSTEMATIC

The report gave several examples of what it described as systematic desecration and photography of the bodies of Palestinian terrorists, charging that it had become a phenomenon in the army.

The military challenged the accuracy of some of the accounts, and promised an investigation. In general, it condemned such incidents as being a clear breach of its code of ethics.

"Morality, purity of arms and the spirit of the Israeli army are what give us our legitimacy in our own eyes and in the eyes of all of Israeli society," the army said in a statement.

The Internet account offered excerpts of a story to be published tomorrow in Yediot's weekend editions.

Some of the photographs showed soldiers playing with remains of a suicide bomber as if he were a human jigsaw puzzle, then parading his severed head with a cigarette in its mouth.

It quoted a junior officer, identified only as "Y," saying pictures of the incident later went on sale for two shekels (about 60cents) apiece.

"It really cracked up the whole platoon, everyone was delighted," he told the newspaper. "I remember I tried to tell them, 'Are you crazy, you're disgusting.' They just couldn't understand what I was talking about."

BODIES DUMPED

Another soldier, "G," tells of returning to base after an operation.

The bodies of dead militants were dumped next to the camp latrines.

"Somebody covered them with blankets, but soldiers kept coming to lift the blankets and have a look, have a bit of fun," he said.

"I remember that some pulled the hair of one of the bodies and played with it."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Ottawa...18/719223.html
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Aside from being disgustingly infantile, why hasn't this story made the world news? If an American did such things, what might be said? Nothing? Wouldn't there be cries of racism, inhumanity, insensitivity? Perhaps questions of lack of professional conduct or vengeance might arise? Or is it the in-thing, like being cool to play with dead persons in a mocking fashion? Maybe Comedy Central should send some talent scouts. Jesus at least the Americans were mocking the living in Abu prison not the dead.

Since the people were dead I guess it isn't a big issue. I guess desecrated American bodies dragged around in Somalia and lately hanging off of bridges in Iraq really were an overreaction by those so offended. Hmmm, how sensitive some are. Of course these are terrorists (Palestinians) and they are the bad guys and the exhibitors (Israeli's) are the good guys. Makes perfect sense now. I have to wonder how many so-called suspected terrorists aside from the suicide bombers were props for a bunch of assholes seeking some homegrown entertainment. Certainly if it is the Israeli's involved there were no innocent civilians killed and desecrated, that's for sure.

I guess the next time the Palestinian's parade around a dead Israeli soldier like a prize winning large mouth bass we can all say who cares too. Afterall these peoples are one of the same. Nothing but one of the same.

__________________
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irateplatypus

wow... i have no idea where you were trying to go with that OFKUO. it sounded like you couldn't tell who you wanted to disparage most so instead tried to hit everyone at once.

if this is true, then it's a very sad thing. first, because i believe it's evil and wrong to desecrate a dead person's body... it's even worse when the deed is done in a ghoulishly festive way and selling the pictures afterwards. truly revolting.

secondly, the last thing the israeli-palestinian situation needs is one more match to light the fuse.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

daswig

Because compared to what their opposition is doing, it's nothing.

Manx

I was thinking the same thing. They're just letting off steam, ya know. Harmless.

daswig

Now, if they were capturing them and cutting their heads off on video, that'd be a different matter....

Manx

Might scare their friends into giving up though. Something to think about, anyway.

smooth

Gotta bust some eggs to make a tasty omelette.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

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gondath

I don't see the actions of those soldiers being healthy by any definition. It promotes the idea that the Palestinians are less than human. I wonder how the soldiers would feel about Israeli bodies being played with like that. I don't see how they can feel any actions taken by the bombers or their allies justifies toying with body parts. In any event, I doubt the United States will condemn or even address the issue. This government doesn't like to criticize Israel for anything, no matter how extreme the situation. I'm glad at least one officer took a stand and told his platoon what he thought of their behavior.

host

The survivors of the holocaust who made their way to Palestine after WWII
understood that acting in ways that were similar to those of their Nazi SS
executioners would undermine their own humanity and make them indistinguishable from the monsters who nearly exterminated all of them.

It is a cause for great concern that too many people allow themselves to be
so blinded by their own righteous anger, that they forget to fully appreciate
and maintain their own legitimacy by always thinking and behaving humanely.

WillyPete

I think my comments might be more relavent to the psych rather that the political aspect, but is this much different from many serial killers taking trophies or other acts in order to dehumanise their victims?
Is this an indication of a mental survival reaction, because these people are out there being told to do for their country what some people might do for pleasure and I'm sure it doesn't come naturally to a human being.

From my experience, even a non-combat location where you know all the other troops have live ammo is very stressful. You are constantly on a high level of tension.
Is this a typical way for the mind to escape from this?

I'm not giving excuses, just asking someone who might be more qualified to answer from the psych perspective.

Dragonlich

I prefer the olde "wrap in pig skin and piss on the corpse" routine, but whatever rocks your boat, I guess.

If you thought that humans are friendly, peaceful creatures, you were sadly mistaken. In a conflict like the Israeli-Palestinian one, the enemy is dehumanized to make it easier to kill them (note: every modern army does the same during their target practice!). It is little wonder that Israeli soldiers act in this way; soldiers have done this for centuries. They've done it in WW1, they did it in WW2, they did it during the Korean and Vietnam wars, and they're doing it today. I'd say we keep our civilian morality and ethics out of a war, because it has no place there; they have their own rules and regulations, and even these may be too restrictive. After all, the object of a war is ultimately to defeat the enemy any way you can, and that includes killing, maiming and destroying in the name of your cause.

(And no, I wasn't kidding about the pig skin and pissing routine. Suicide bombers and other terrorists deserve it.)

WillyPete

Do a search for American action against Muslims in the Panama conflict. They used similar methods of washing their bullets in pigs blood before executing 'terrorists'.

seretogis

I don't see anyone condoning this type of behavior, so I think that all of the snide replies are unnecessary. Desecration of corpses is an awful disgusting thing regardless of who does it.

__________________
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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

WillyPete

War isn't just putting pieces of lead into the other side's soldiers.

There's many fronts to fight on.
Psychological, financial, espionage & counterintel, propaganda.

Here, we're looking at we consider barbaric by modern day standards, but has been a legitimate form of war for thousands of years.

Remember the mongols and their mountains of heads?
Chaka impaling his opposition and victims on stakes?
American pilots dragged through Somalian streets?

What it does is to dehumanise your enemy n the eyes of your soldiers and to generate fear in the enemy's hearts. If the enemy can be driven back or made to act indecisively by fear, then you have won a large part of the war. Although barbaric, it has it's uses.

and whoever said war was meant to be polite or honourable anyway? Your mission is to kill all those who oppose the placement of your strategic forces. That's not barbaric?

Manx

WillyPete - The other side of that coin, particularly in situations of such desperation, is to embolden your enemy with anger and enrage those you were previously not fighting.

WillyPete

True. that's why you pick the opportunity with care, otherwise you risk turning your troops into sociopaths and you lose the effect on your enemy.

If they understand that they have no chance of success and that your goal is to occupy their territory, humane treatment of their wounded, captured and civillians is paramount in reducing their will to attack you. Hearts and minds.

Honourable actions in the midst of war inspire confidence, compassion for non-combatants and allow your enemy an honourable recourse should things not go their way. It also (generally) preserves the chance of you being treated honourably and in accordance with international treaty should things not go your way.

Connolly

Well, a bunch of dumb Israelis got too into the dehuhmanization thing (happens all the time in every army - even Canada's, in Somalia, but I don't think all Canadians are evil) and pissed off the Palestinians some more. Wake me up when something new happens.

Bill O'Rights

First, let me preface this by saying that in no way am I condoning this behavior. Now, having said that, let me further say that you, I, and 99.9% of the TFP will never understand the mental duress that drives this behavior. What these soldiers are doing, in a morbid twisted sense, is releasing some of the horror that has become their daily life. You don't survive in a combat zone, for very long, without it affecting your mental makeup. Keep in mind, lest you become too judgemental, that these men aren't waking up in the morning, showering, having breakfast, hopping in their cars, going to work, and dealing with a prick for a boss all day, like you and I. They're doing an seeing things that no human should have to deal with. And that's exactly what's happening here...they're dealing with the horror, that has become their life, in the only way they know how. By the dehumanization of their adversaries. So, to sum this up, unless you are one of the very few amoungst us here, that have seen first hand, the horror of close in combat...then I wouldn't be so quick to make any judgemental proclomations.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

fibber

Corpse desecration is a religious taboo not a natural one.
Look at the Buddhist monks in parts of tibet. After having readings done from the book of the dead to help speed the soul along. They believe the body is just a useless bag of meat and dispose of it as such.

"At one point two of the attendants unwrapped one of the bodies and calmly began to cut it up. At first they sliced of pieced of flesh which they tossed to an area about fifteen or twenty feet from where they were working. A couple of huge vultures were flying high overhead, and a couple of others were perched on some rocks at some distance. Then the men began to wave their arms and made some strange haunting sounds that reminded me of wild animal or bird calls. It probably took about 15-20 minutes for the birds to come - a few dozen. In the meantime the two men charged with the job of disposing of the bodies, continued to cut up the bodies, one at-a-time. The bones were hacked or broken into smaller pieces and tossed aside. The vultures swooped down and tore off pieces of flesh or in some cases flew off with a large chunk which they could eat without being challenged. The bigger bones were broken up on the rocks with large heavy stone, and the pieces tossed easily into the feeding area. Although there seemed to be more than enough for all the birds, by nature they kept vying for the spoils. The whole affair was not harried, but rather a methodical solemn process that must have lasted for a little more than an hour. "


-fibber

oktjabr

Sure, the entire word "desecration" is religiously connotated. I dare to say that these soldiers were not tibetan monks, though.

Otherwise, I agree with Bill O'Rights - I guess this is an example of the problem with a conscription army in war.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

Seaver

Not too many muslims in Panama, I do believe you mean the Philippeans.

Suave

This kind of thing shouldn't surprise anyone. Soldiers are tools of death; people are not built into soldiers to be saviours or heros or good role models (which is not to say that they can't be). The point of making a soldier is to make someone who kills other people, and when you have someone who's full time job is to kill people, and who is involved in a long-running conflict, then this kind of crap should be expected. I'm not condoning it, but the kind of shock and horror that people express at these kinds of things always strikes me as naive.

oktjabr

I will be more worried when people won't react with shock and horror to these cases. It would mean that the civilians are also accustomed to such macabre acts.

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

Manx

I'd love to hear 99.9% of TFP use that exact same excuse to explain a Palestinian terrorist's behavior.

Who among us can ever understand the mental duress that is a product of constant oppression, failure of ones' own people to organize effectively, being walled in, having your homes demolished, having gun ships and soldiers shoot at you and your family.

And yet 99.9% of us judge them as inexcusable and reprehensible.

fibber

The old black ones?


-fibber

Force 10

edit edit edit

Mojo_PeiPei

Targetting innocents is never justifiable, ever, it is those people that do such that we deem inexcusable and reprehensible.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Manx

Playing with dead people and torturing people and shooting injured people in the head is never justifiable, ever, it is those people that do such that we deem inexcusable and reprehensible, particularly when they are supposed to be acting on our behalf.

Spare me the "you just don't know what it's like" nonsense. That's a two way street.

Apparently so.

oktjabr

I didn't realize that Israeli-American alliance was so strong you call them "your boys".

__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever."
-G.O.

Force 10

edit edit edit .....

Force 10

My bad. Mis-read. I automatically thought the story was related to American forces. The tv reports and news lately have been slandering the Americans again :-(

again, my bad.

Suave

Consider yourself worried then.

WillyPete

True, Pershing is stated as doing that.

However, as I've just found out it seems that this story is false.
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/pershing.html

sob

The terrorists themselves have said their mission is to kill anyone whom they consider an infidel. "Death to America" is one of their refrains.

They also don't have a problem with mangling/killing innocent noncombatants, including children. Being Jewish is a good enough reason to warrant being killed in gruesome fashion.

For those reasons, I have trouble feeling any sympathy for them whatsoever. As a Navy SEAL said to me, "Dealing with them is like trying to box someone who keeps kicking you in the balls."

And that's not going to change, even if someone gives the terrorists a REALLY big hug.

Manx

When someone tries to tell me that they don't "condone" someone's actions but I shouldn't judge them because I'm not in their shoes, I expect, no, I demand such obvious nonsense be applied to ALL THINGS - not just the selective few you might desire.

I don't condone or excuse in any way a terrorists' reprehensible actions. And I don't condone or excuse in any way a soldier fighting "for" me who commits reprehensible actions.

But I will most certainly point out the absolute hypocrisy of anyone who attempts to assuage the reprehensibility of either one. But most especially those actions commited by those who are tasked with representing me. And most particularly if it is done under the guise of "you just don't know what it's like".

Ustwo

Such outcry over the corpses of dead terrorists.

If only the left would outcry over the dead these poor defiled corpses killed with their suicide bombs.

When the left sides time after time with the forces of ignorance, oppression, and murder, I have to wonder the motives of the leaders and the intelligence of the followers.

They should ask themselves, how long would their views last in a Palestinian controlled area? How would tolerance for their version of free speech last? How long they would be alive? While they complain in the comfort of Western Civilization, knowing its very nature will not allow them to be harmed, no matter how warped their statements, a boy who breaks his fast on Ramadan is beaten to death, women are subjected to second class citizens, and children are taught that suicide is what is expected of them.

If the left had any honesty, they would cry out against these injustices, and fight them, not aid them.

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guthmund

I think it's important to not confuse the message with the messenger.

In my opinion, it is reprehensible when acts like this occur, regardless of which side they're on.

I understand the de-humanizing the "enemy" is a commonly accepted tactic. It doesn't mean that I have to accept it and give pardon.

I don't agree with the Palestinian mandate nor their vision. My disagreement, however, doesn't justify the use of such de-humanizing tactics on those that died to further that mandate or that vision. For that matter, my agreement with a particular mandate or vision doesn't grant acceptance of such tactics either.


While it's important, in my opinion, which is based solely on personal ideology, to oppose the terrorist and the society that bears, condones and aids such terrorists, it doesn't justify the tactics used in the news story.

"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is not an acceptable argument. It is important to stand above such atrocities and not wallow in them with the "enemy."

It's distasteful when any side uses such methods regardless of their affliation or what uniform they wear.

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