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Old 11-20-2004, 02:59 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
Until I realize that they are nothing but excuses to justify the negation of social welfare policies.

I have to say: I couldn't care less how hard your dad had it, how hard you had it or how difficult it is to walk 10 miles to school up hill, both ways.

There are countless instances of people not having opportunities to achieve this magically-easy success of which you speak. When you come from an environment which has been downtrodden for decades and subjected to inferior standards of "equality" for centuries, it is not a simple matter of waiting until most of the bastards that did the oppressing have died off to eliminate the mentality from those that do the oppressing and those that are subjected to the oppressing. There is no amount of hard work that is as easy as you would like to believe that is going to change a mentality of a child raised in an environment of shit, itself born from an environment of shit, and again from an environment of shit. As hard as you want me to believe your sob story was, there are thousands of families that have it 100 times harder. It is no longer a case of "yeah yeah, your mom is a crack whore and who the hell knows who your pop is? but all you need to do is ignore that meaningless problem and study hard and you'll achieve the grand American dream". It's NONSENSE. You can't switch off the effects of these types of environments. Money has to be spent to weaken the corrosive influence they have on our entire society.
What you're talking about is theft. You couch it in terms of "social welfare", but stealing is what you're talking about. You play the race card beautifully, without even mentioning race. Unfortunately, it's still crap. For your reading pleasure:

Quote:
Men are so constituted that they derive their conviction of their own possibilities largely from the estimate formed of them by others. If nothing is expected of a people, that people will find it difficult to contradict that expectation.
Quote:
Everybody has asked the question, and they learned to ask it early of the Abolitionists, "What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! If you see him on his way to school, let him alone -- don't disturb him. If you see him going to the dinner table at a hotel, let him go! If you see him going to the ballot-box, let him alone, -- don't disturb him! If you see him going into a workshop, just let him alone, -- your interference is doing him a positive injury....Let him fall if he cannot stand alone! If the Negro cannot live by the line of eternal justice,...the fault will not be yours; it will be his who made the Negro, and established that line for his government. Let him live or die by that. If you will only untie his hands, and give him a chance, I think he will live...
Your position completely contradicts this position.

Quote:
And lastly - rich people did not automatically work hard to become rich. It takes money to make money. It takes cronyism to make money. It takes greed and deception to make money. Honest, hard work is not the most important qualifier for achieving success - by any measure. It is far easier to cheat than it is to produce something beneficial.
If you truly believe this, I feel very, very sorry for you.
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Old 11-20-2004, 06:45 AM   #82 (permalink)
sob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
What you're talking about is theft. You couch it in terms of "social welfare", but stealing is what you're talking about. You play the race card beautifully, without even mentioning race. Unfortunately, it's still crap..
Although it's obvious you need no illustrations, I'm sending you this one anyway.
Perhaps you will find it useful in dealing with people who are determined to spend your money.

"A Republican and a Democrat were walking down the street when they came
to a homeless person. The Republican gave the homeless person his
business card and told him to come to his business for a job. He then
took twenty dollars out of his pocket and gave it to the homeless person."

"The Democrat was very impressed, and when they came to another homeless
person, he decided to help. He walked over to the homeless person and
gave him directions to the welfare office. He then reached into the
Republican's pocket and gave the homeless person fifty dollars."

"Now you understand the difference between Republicans and
Democrats."
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Old 11-20-2004, 06:57 AM   #83 (permalink)
sob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smooth
I don't see the point in discussing things with you because you twist and distort what I say and try to pinpoint logical fallacies in my posts, so far unsuccessfully except in your mind. Only in that space are you making sense to the people following your replies to my posts.
I will be happy to point out your deliberate misstatements if I see the slightest interest expressed by someone else in this thread. I've already saved them, though, so it won't do any good to go back and edit them.

But it's rather off-topic to document the things like your confusion/contradictions about where you've lived.
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Old 11-20-2004, 08:10 AM   #84 (permalink)
sob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
Yes. From the mentality of a person who believes that social services are nothing more than theft, that is exactly what I would expect you to get out of my post.
Would you expect this, too?

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/pages/...asp?story=2228

Most Charitable States Coincide with Voting Patterns
Wednesday, November 17, 2004

By Sam Kastensmidt


Each year, the Catalogue for Philanthropy determined the nation’s most charitable states. To determine which states are most charitable, the organization used 2002 federal income tax returns. The results show a clear correlation with the 2004 Presidential election.

The Methodology

The Catalogue’s generosity index is computed by the following equation:

The state’s average income ranking / the state’s average charitable contribution ranking

The Order of Most Charitable States

1) Mississippi – Bush
2) Arkansas – Bush
3) Oklahoma – Bush
4) Louisiana – Bush
5) Alabama – Bush
6) Tennessee – Bush
7) South Dakota – Bush
8) Utah – Bush
9) South Carolina – Bush
10) Idaho – Bush
11) Wyoming – Bush
12) Texas – Bush
13) West Virginia – Bush
14) Nebraska – Bush
15) North Dakota – Bush
16) North Carolina – Bush
17) Kansas – Bush
18) Florida – Bush
19) Georgia – Bush
20) Kentucky – Bush
21) Montana – Bush
22) Missouri – Bush
23) New Mexico – Bush
24) Alaska – Bush
25) Indiana – Bush
26) New York – Kerry
27) Iowa – Bush
28) Ohio – Bush
29) California – Kerry
30) Maryland – Kerry
31) Illinois – Kerry
32) Maine – Kerry
33) Delaware – Kerry
34) Washington – Kerry
35) Vermont – Kerry
36) Oregon – Kerry
37) Hawaii – Kerry
38) Virginia – Bush
39) Arizona – Bush
40) Nevada – Bush
41) Pennsylvania – Kerry
42) Michigan - Kerry
43) Colorado – Bush
44) Connecticut – Kerry
45) Minnesota – Kerry
46) Wisconsin – Kerry
47) New Jersey – Kerry
48) Rhode Island – Kerry
49) Massachusetts – Kerry
50) New Hampshire – Kerry

It would look more favorable to the Kerry camp if a way were devised to report how much of OTHER people's money the Kerry crew likes to "donate."
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Old 11-20-2004, 08:37 AM   #85 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Sweden
I haven´t read throught the whole thread but:
-Isn´t the relative poverty line defined at the lowest 20% earners in a country, therefore you will always have 20% poor people.
-You can´t increase wages unless you increase efficiency, if you force raised wages for a larger group of people these(the raises not the people) will be eaten away by a raise in living costs.

Short and sweet: Nobody is forced to work a low-income job but most often it´s better than all other alternatives avalible to you. I myself work a low-wage job and I recognise the whining fom my co-workers that we are payed to poorly and work too much and I can tell you that considering what we do (working as a train conductor) we are payed way to much and I´m pulling of studing economics at a university at the same time so I guess we aren´t working to much either.
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Old 11-20-2004, 09:38 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
Please quote where I said you've been bailed out all of your life. I said no such thing. You had family that you could turn to for help if you got your shit together.
From post 66 YOUR words Daswig:
Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
"I'm glad you have parents with money. It must be nice to have a cushion to bail you out when you keep failing. I didn't have that luxury, so I had to make sure I didn't fail."

Think you just proven yourself a liar in regards to your attack on me.

Either way this thread for me is done, not once did I get a solid answer to how to chnage things from the opposition, all they do is point fingers, throw blame and attack personally.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Last edited by pan6467; 11-20-2004 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 11-20-2004, 10:03 AM   #87 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Either way this thread for me is done, not once did I get a solid answer to how to chnage things from the opposition, all they do is point fingers, throw blame and attack personally.
Maybe if you ask the wrong question you don´t get the right answers. You made a statement and asked for justification, opposition thought your statement was wrong and therefore felt they didn´t need to justify it but intead pointed out the wrongs.
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Old 11-20-2004, 11:19 AM   #88 (permalink)
sob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Either way this thread for me is done, not once did I get a solid answer to how to chnage things from the opposition, all they do is point fingers, throw blame and attack personally.

What was your solution again? Oh, yes, it was was a rewording of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Now that you're spending less time on the computer, maybe you should consider a second job.

Wait, that solved the problems of two people you disagree with!

On second thought, you should just engage in dishonest business practices. By his own admission, that works for Manx. He didn't care to hear about people who improved their lives by, for example, hard work.
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Old 11-20-2004, 11:31 AM   #89 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
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ENOUGH

Here we go again.

Please keep the debate civil....no personal attacks.
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Old 11-20-2004, 11:59 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
From post 66 YOUR words Daswig:


Think you just proven yourself a liar in regards to your attack on me.

Either way this thread for me is done, not once did I get a solid answer to how to chnage things from the opposition, all they do is point fingers, throw blame and attack personally.

I hate to do this to you and get into parsing words, but you said:
Quote:
I brought out the fact that you stepped over the line and personally attacked me with no knowledge of my life by saying since I had rich parents I was bailed out all my life.
I didn't say you were "bailed out all your life", I said, as you quoted: "I'm glad you have parents with money. It must be nice to have a cushion to bail you out when you keep failing." You're misreading what I said. Please try again, but with carefully reading what I actually wrote, and what you say I actually wrote. If you're intellectually honest, you'll see that they are two different things. And I'll accept your apology for calling me a liar whenever you wish to tender it.
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:06 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Location: Right here
You're not going to get an apology.

In fact, if you look directly above your post, you'll notice that a moderator said in polite terms as possible to quite childishly bickering with people attempting to have what began as a mature discussion.
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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:17 PM   #92 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
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3.....2......1...........

Daswig/Smooth....The future of this thread is in your hands. Act as Adults, get on track, and keep the thread open. Continue as you are and watch the results.
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:23 PM   #93 (permalink)
comfortably numb...
 
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Super Moderator
Location: upstate
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah
Daswig/Smooth....The future of this thread is in your hands. Act as Adults, get on track, and keep the thread open. Continue as you are and watch the results.
and i've got his back...
__________________
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- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
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Old 11-20-2004, 01:00 PM   #94 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nad Adam
I haven´t read throught the whole thread but:
-Isn´t the relative poverty line defined at the lowest 20% earners in a country, therefore you will always have 20% poor people.
-You can´t increase wages unless you increase efficiency, if you force raised wages for a larger group of people these(the raises not the people) will be eaten away by a raise in living costs.

Short and sweet: Nobody is forced to work a low-income job but most often it´s better than all other alternatives avalible to you. I myself work a low-wage job and I recognise the whining fom my co-workers that we are payed to poorly and work too much and I can tell you that considering what we do (working as a train conductor) we are payed way to much and I´m pulling of studing economics at a university at the same time so I guess we aren´t working to much either.
The bottom 20% is referred to as the lowest quintile.

Relative poverty is defined as making less than half the median wage.

If the value of the dollar isn't constant, why would one have to increase productivity just to keep earning the same approximate wage over time?
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
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Old 11-20-2004, 01:13 PM   #95 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sob
Would you expect this, too?
Of course I would. Misrepresentation and off-topic responses are required in order for your opinion to have any weight.
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Old 11-20-2004, 01:16 PM   #96 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
What you're talking about is theft. You couch it in terms of "social welfare", but stealing is what you're talking about. You play the race card beautifully, without even mentioning race. Unfortunately, it's still crap. For your reading pleasure:

Your position completely contradicts this position.
How about if I ignore your attempt to paint me as a racist simply because you fail to grasp the affects of ongoing generational oppression upon large groups of people.
Quote:
If you truly believe this, I feel very, very sorry for you.
I'll also go ahead and ignore your misplaced sense of pity simply because you are so desperate to believe in the honesty of man when ALL evidence demonstrates there is no honesty in capitalism.

Last edited by Manx; 11-20-2004 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:00 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Location: BFE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
How about if I ignore your attempt to paint me as a racist simply because you fail to grasp the affects of ongoing generational oppression upon large groups of people.
I'll also go ahead and ignore your misplaced sense of pity simply because you are so desperate to believe in the honesty of man when ALL evidence demonstrates there is no honesty in capitalism.

And there's honesty in Communism or whatever system you're advocating??? Tell that to the folks that died in the Gulags. As for my failure to "grasp the affects (sic) of ongoing generational oppression upon large groups of people", well, hate to tell you this, but I'll take the guy who said this:
Quote:
"What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! If you see him on his way to school, let him alone -- don't disturb him. If you see him going to the dinner table at a hotel, let him go! If you see him going to the ballot-box, let him alone, -- don't disturb him! If you see him going into a workshop, just let him alone, -- your interference is doing him a positive injury....Let him fall if he cannot stand alone! If the Negro cannot live by the line of eternal justice,...the fault will not be yours; it will be his who made the Negro, and established that line for his government. Let him live or die by that.
over your opinion on race relations any day. History has judged him, and it was 4.0s all the way.
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:41 PM   #98 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
And there's honesty in Communism or whatever system you're advocating??? Tell that to the folks that died in the Gulags.
There is no honesty in man. And most certainly not in capitalism. But nice attempt at deflecting yet again.
Quote:
As for my failure to "grasp the affects (sic) of ongoing generational oppression upon large groups of people", well, hate to tell you this, but I'll take the guy who said this:
over your opinion on race relations any day. History has judged him, and it was 4.0s all the way.
Nonsense. Your continued efforts to discount generational oppression on the psyche by ignoring it completely are entirely without basis. Your delusion of equality is founded on nothing whatsoever.
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:50 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
Of course I would. Misrepresentation and off-topic responses are required in order for your opinion to have any weight.
Speaking of misrepresentations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
There are countless instances of people not having opportunities to achieve this magically-easy success of which you speak.
I'm not sure whether this was directed to Daswig or sob, but the above is a blatant misrepresentation of what they said.

Their point was that they invested HARD work to overcome difficulties.

I guess your philosophy of being dishonest is quite a bit easier.

Oh, I understood the point about the charitable states, too. Perhaps this post will put it in context for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilow
My initial reaction to this post was--don't look at me, the people have spoken in the last election, they don't want a "society" where everyone can at least have "luxurys" like food and basic health care. I truely amazes me that some of the "red" states were convinced to vote clearly against their economic interests. I feel that it is the second biggest ruse that the Republicans purpetrated (after convincing much of the public that they are moderate). Most of the "red" states are not economic powerhouses, they probably have the highest percentage of people living below the "poverty line" and yet they vote for someone who has never truely spoken to their needs (a tiny bit of campaign lip service for a sound bite doesn't really count).
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:55 PM   #100 (permalink)
Loser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarl Cabot
Their point was that they invested HARD work to overcome difficulties.
I understood very well what their point was - they did "hard" work, which is actually easy because "anyone can do it" to be successful.

That is most certainly a misrepresentation on their part.

It's nonsense.
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Old 11-20-2004, 03:00 PM   #101 (permalink)
sob
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx
I understood very well what their point was - they did "hard" work, which is actually easy because "anyone can do it" to be successful.

That is most certainly a misrepresentation on their part.

It's nonsense.
You have a very active imagination.

I'll apologize if Daswig says that hard work is easy.

I know I didn't.
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Old 11-20-2004, 03:11 PM   #102 (permalink)
Loser
 
Then you wouldn't expect everyone to be able to accomplish it.

Which is it? Hard work which not everyone can do on their own or "Hard" work which is easy enough for everyone to do on their own?
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Old 11-20-2004, 03:12 PM   #103 (permalink)
Lennonite Priest
 
pan6467's Avatar
 
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by sob
What was your solution again? Oh, yes, it was was a rewording of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Now that you're spending less time on the computer, maybe you should consider a second job.

Wait, that solved the problems of two people you disagree with!

On second thought, you should just engage in dishonest business practices. By his own admission, that works for Manx. He didn't care to hear about people who improved their lives by, for example, hard work.
Don't know how my solutions were a rewording of anything. You must truly not have read what I wrote. And just made assumptions.

I do believe in hard work, but at the wages paid and people struggling to make a living, you don't get truly hard work you don't inspire advancement, you get resentment and a "Let's stick it to the man" attitude. Have worked enough of those jobs to see it. High turnover, low morale and uncaring work ethics.

Pay a man an honest wage allow him to feel like he is achieving something and he works harder has more loyalty and does what it takes to help the company. Pay a man a barely liveable wage treat him like dirt and you get someone looking for a reason to leave, to sue (look how many wage lawsuits Wal*Mart has been having) and anger.

In other words you get what you pay for, in merchandise and in employees.

But I do have to admire the way you make personal attacks instead of addressing the issue and staying on it with your solutions. You teach me how not to debate issues and how to deflect everything onto my opponent while not offering anything of substance, but trying to make me feel far suprerior.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
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Old 11-20-2004, 03:19 PM   #104 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
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Closed...

I am....at Times....Disheartened
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