Leave or Fight? what would you do? - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

smooth · 11-29-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

If we are talking about ancestors, several of mine were born here as well.

well, obviously I'm not talking to you then.

of course, I've seen a picture of you, and anyone can see a picture of me.

(so I don't get to pick and choose my ancestral heritage)

smooth · 11-29-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The ironic thing is there is a growing theory based on some very interesting archeological evidence that the 'first' Americans came several thousand years earlier then expected and were in turn wiped out by a second wave from Asia. Be quite ironic if true don't you think?

quite ironic...that is, if your ancestors were part of that first wave and mine part of the second.

EDIT: both you and lebell focused on the very minor point of what I was stating.

It isn't, "I was here first, you leave"

It was, "those of who came here out of religious persecution, don't tell the people who were already here to leave when they don't agree with your values"

Lebell · 11-29-2004, 01:10 PM

Actually, the point I was making is that is irrelevant whose ancestors were here first, you personally were not here "first".

Nor do I see people who came here out of religious persecution (which, btw, was not usually because they were more liberal, but because they were different than the established state religion) telling you to "leave".

What I see is people saying that if you are unhappy here and want to leave, then leave. Several more of us are saying that this is a silly thing to leave your country over.

I have not seen anyone in this thread saying, "America: love it or leave it".

sob · 11-29-2004, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

I haven´t checked this thread in a few days so I´ll just lump all my misinfomed responses together. Before elections here in Spain, Aznar was a genuinely hated individual. Some of the largest anti war demonstrations in the world took place here. I hit the streets of Barcelona with a million people. A million. 99% of the Spanish people were vehemently and vocally opposed to Aznar´s pro Bush stance!.

I'm having trouble finding anything that's correct in this post.

Since so many here question the validity of US media, here's something from the BBC:

"Spanish voters rejected the Popular Party three days after the attacks, even though it had led the opinion polls in the weeks leading up to the election."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3560561.stm

While it may be true that a majority opposed his war stance, they couldn't have been too "vehement," judging from the election results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

Here in Spain we live with an enormous islamic culture dating back as far as written records. Morrocans and Algerians are easily as prevelent, if not more so, then Mexicans and people of Latino heritage in the US. Because of this there is an understanding and respect for the culture and beliefs of these genuinely good neighbors.

This is unadulterated crap. My son lived in Madrid, and everyone he knew hated the Moroccans, in no small part due to their habit of mugging Spaniards.

They can practically wade over, but they arrive with nothing and have no qualms with forcing the locals to "donate" to them. In addition, Moroccans are well known to be a major conduit for bringing drugs into Spain.

It's also worthy of note that most of the train bombing suspects are Moroccans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

High school graduates here can pont out Iraq on a map. North Korea and Cuba also. High school grads in the states these days seem barely able to spell their own name.

And yet, many of the people posting on this thread are vociferous in their demands for an increase in the minimum wage, and government giveaways to these same losers.

pedro padilla · 11-30-2004, 08:07 PM

point by point.
1. El Pais, (leading Spanish newspaper) showed Aznar at 30 to Zapateros 70 about 2 weeks before elections. This is taking to account the fact that Spanish polls are notorious for being conducted in upper class districts. El Periodico put Aznar at 40 to 60. La Vanguardia said he was lucky if he could wrap up 40%. No, the polls did not come out in his favor. Sorry BBC is UK. This is Spain.
2. Your American son and all his American pals in Madrid do not mean shit. Didn´t they get the hint? Americans are way more hated than anyone else on this continent. Your sons 4 week Spanish fiesta probably consisted of overpriced rotgut sangria in typical tourist bars which (surprise) attract the sleaziest and most desperate kind of Morrocans. Your son? Everyone he knew hated... Yeah, I´m sure thats true. McTourist. or should I say McRacist?
3.If you can accept 2nd hand uninformed info concerning a country you personally know absolutely nothing about, you should really get pissed off at the rest of the world for being so accurately informed about the arrogant ignorance being spewed by worldly scholars such as yourself.
unadulterated crap. Yeah, That pretty much sums it up. You best school you self, fool.

Lebell · 11-30-2004, 10:18 PM

Sob and Pedro.

Cut out the sarcasm and personal comments or face a temp ban.

You guys aren't rookies and don't have the excuse of not knowing better.

^Ice_Bat^ · 11-30-2004, 10:24 PM

Here is my non-paritison answer to the question. If you are unhappy about the way the country is going get involved. No changes will ever happen if you just leave and give up altogether. That's weak in my opinion. Either party that would choose to retreat rather than stand and fight are weak. So if you are a democrat or republican who's unhappy about the way the country is going, then voice your opinion. The country needs diversity so that we can continue to grow and better suit the needs of everyone.

sob · 12-01-2004, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

point by point.
1. El Pais, (leading Spanish newspaper) showed Aznar at 30 to Zapateros 70 about 2 weeks before elections. This is taking to account the fact that Spanish polls are notorious for being conducted in upper class districts. El Periodico put Aznar at 40 to 60. La Vanguardia said he was lucky if he could wrap up 40%. No, the polls did not come out in his favor. Sorry BBC is UK. This is Spain.

Point by point:

Personally, I disregard polls once the election results are in. I don't plan on posting any quotes in Spanish, so I'll therefore be limited to English ones, even if you don't like them.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...ain.elections/

"With 99 percent of ballots counted, the opposition Socialists were ahead slightly with 34.7 percent to 33.9 percent for Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party.

It was the first time since 1991 that the Socialists won more votes than the Popular Party in local elections.

But it was only a slight gain for the opposition over 1999 results, and only a slight decline for Aznar's party, which held on to the mayor's seat in Madrid as well as control of Valencia and smaller cities and towns in central Spain."

http://www.economist.com/displayStor...ory_id=1817707

"Only 200,000 votes out of more than 23m cast separated the two main parties. The PP was a single percentage point down on its previous election showing in local and regional elections, in 1999, with 34% of the vote to the Socialists' 35%. Looking on the bright side, Mr Aznar declared that his party “now has more mayors and more local councillors than any other”. His PP not only held its old bastions but even stormed a few more, such as Burgos and Granada. It did well in Valencia. In Galicia, whose coastline was besmirched by the Prestige's oil, the PP got 41.5%, only four points less than in 1999.

The party's biggest swoop was on Madrid's city hall, where Mr Aznar's wife, Ana Botella, number three on the PP's slate, will now make her political début. The mayor-elect, the able and ambitious Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon, though not close to the prime minister, has suddenly emerged as the PP's new star.

Indeed, he is already being talked about as a possible replacement for Mr Aznar when he steps down from the top job, as promised, before the general election."

So I'm having difficulty with this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

"99% of the Spanish people were vehemently and vocally opposed to Aznar´s pro Bush stance! There was no love lost for the short little mustached fool before the March 11th attacks. Basically they reinforced the strong public opinion that it was a bad move to get involved in the first place."

Especially since his wife was elected to office! By the way, I'm not short and I don't have a mustache, but even if both were the case, I'm unaware of the effect either has on the worth of an elected official.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

2. Your American son and all his American pals in Madrid do not mean shit. Didn´t they get the hint? Americans are way more hated than anyone else on this continent. Your sons 4 week Spanish fiesta probably consisted of overpriced rotgut sangria in typical tourist bars which (surprise) attract the sleaziest and most desperate kind of Morrocans. Your son? Everyone he knew hated... Yeah, I´m sure thats true. McTourist. or should I say McRacist?

You can say anything, but other than classifying my son as an American, you're still 100% wrong.

My son learned Spanish from birth. All of his friends in Spain were Spanish, except for one American exchange student. Spaniards were unable to detect from his speech that he is American. In fact, at parties, he enjoyed it when someone he didn't know would say, after talking to him for a few minutes, "I hear there's an American here." His response was usually, "There is? Let's go find him." He was routinely accused of bullshitting when he told people he was from the US, during the year he lived there.

Additionally, while my son was in Spain, I was hosting a student from Madrid. For a year. That was helpful when I started making some very adrenaline-charged phone calls the day I turned on the news and saw the Madrid train bombing results. I guess this student (and his mother, for that matter) are also racists, because they didn't like muggers and drug dealers, either.

Since I see very little in your response other than personal attacks, I'd be interested to hear you mention how these Moroccans, who sneak into Spain with essentially nothing, are able to support themselves, since they're not citizens, and therefore can't legally be employed.

I can tell you what my son observed: (1) They sell pirated DVDs on the Metro. (2) They mug people on the Metro (my son observed one mugging, and his American friend, a rather large kid, kicked the asses of five Moroccans who tried to mug him. As luck would have it, he broke one of their jaws, so this particular one got arrested at the hospital.) (3) They sell drugs.

Okay, I'll qualify that. A LARGE NUMBER of them do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

3.If you can accept 2nd hand uninformed info concerning a country you personally know absolutely nothing about, you should really get pissed off at the rest of the world for being so accurately informed about the arrogant ignorance being spewed by worldly scholars such as yourself. unadulterated crap. Yeah, That pretty much sums it up. You best school you self, fool.

Irrelevant personal attack noted and ignored henceforth.

So to wrap this up, every news source that reported on the elections contradicts your statement about the popularity of Aznar.

If you have any information about how well-loved the Moroccans are in Spain, I'd love to see it.

If you want to stick with your other personal attacks/name calling, and assertions about my "arrogant ignorance," fire away. I don't believe they helped your case, whatever it was.

Tarl Cabot · 12-01-2004, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Sob and Pedro.

Cut out the sarcasm and personal comments or face a temp ban.

You guys aren't rookies and don't have the excuse of not knowing better.

I guess because I'm new here, I can't find either a personal comment or sarcasm in this post:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=124

To Tarl Cabot and others,

Please PM the mod if you have a question like this.

-lebell

Ustwo · 12-01-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Tuesday, November 30, 2004

Posted 10:57 by John
Former Prime Minister José María Aznar spoke for eleven hours yesterday before the Parliamentary commission investigating the March 11 bombings in Madrid. It was all televised live on TV2; I watched some of it, especially the part where he chewed up the Esquerra Republicana guy and spit him out. Aznar was devastating. He laid out the facts clean, hard, and straight, and carried out a fearsome assault on the media of communication, especially the leftist radio network SER, for at the very least irresponsibly spreading rumors between March 11 and March 14. Aznar looked extremely good, though his enemies are already smearing him personally as arrogant, stubborn, mean, and nasty. I cannot help thinking that his performance will win the PP a few points, and this couldn't come at a worse time for Zap; Aznar looked strong and professional, and Zap and the Socialists have finally worn out their honeymoon. The media are beginning to portray them as weak amateur bumblers who, in addition, aren't very smart. Miguel Ángel Moratinos, in particular, has been revealed as an extremely poor choice, and Zap probably ought to toss him over the side and get someone competent to be Foreign Minister. I never thought I would miss Ana Palacio, but Moratinos has made a believer out of me. Zap and Moratinos have managed to pull Spain out of the Washington-London axis and insert it into the Havana-Caracas axis, which even Lula is staying out of. Now you tell me whether that was smart. Or ethical. Looks to me like Zap has ditched as Spain's allies two democratically elected leaders, Bush and Blair, for two tinpot Latin American caudillos.

Here are a few excerpts from Aznar's opening statement.

On March 11, three days before the general election, Spain suffered a horrible attack by Islamic terrorism that murdered 192 people, wounded hundreds, and caused a brutal upheaval in our society. What did the government that I presided do?...The summary of the government's actions is that in 60 hours:

1. The government made sure that the citizens´lives could continue normally.
2. The government did everything it could to assure all kinds of help to the victims and their families.
3. The government began the rapid and effective investigation by the security forces of the State, which two days after the attacks led to the arrests of various of the perpetrators.
4. The government informed (the citizens) with a speed and a transparency without precedent in an investigation of this kind.
5. And the government made sure that it was possible, on Sunday March 14, to hold the general election normally, as happened.

Aznar went over the timetable of the events of the morning of March 11 after the bombs went off at three Madrid train stations just after 8 AM. Before 9 AM the Socialist Party had incorrectly attributed the attacks to ETA in a public statement. The president of the Basque Country did the same at 9:35. The minister of Interior did not attribute the attacks to ETA until a press conference at 1:30 PM, and he did so based on intelligence the government had received from the security authorities, which soon turned out to be wrong. At 4:45 PM the minister of Interior informed Aznar that the van (which turned out to be the one the Islamic terrorists had used, and was the first clue that ETA was perhaps not responsible) had been found; it was then searched, evidence was found, and this information was made public by the Minister of Interior at 8:20 PM. The government contacted opposition political parties and the media of communication before the 8:20 statement was made. Opposition political parties and communications media, especially the radio network SER, then proceeded to go nuts. In the early morning of the next day, Friday March 12, the autopsies demonstrated there had been no suicide bombers, and at 2:40 AM an unexploded bomb was found in the wreckage. Analysis of the bomb and the other contents of the backpack it was hidden in became the decisive clue that made it clear the bombings were an Al Qaeda job. Arrests of the perpetrators began. There is no evidence the government covered up anything. There is no evidence that the initial, incorrect assumption that ETA was guilty, which everyone from Carod-Rovira to Ibarretxe jumped to, was in anything but good faith. There is a great deal of evidence showing the government acted responsibly in dealing with the tragedy. The proof is that they found out who really did it within a day and made the first arrests only a day later, that society did not fall apart, that the elections went on as scheduled, that the PP lost, and that they participated in a democratic transition of power, only Spain's fourth ever in history.

Aznar again:

I maintain that opposition parties and media of communication known for their delirious obsession against the Partido Popular government lied; they fabricated a "big lie" about the government's management, they tried to destabilize it, and they had their role on a "day of reflection" (the day before the election, when all political campaigning is prohibited, so the PP could not answer back) which they used to support the organized harassment of a democratic political party, still responsible for the government of the nation at one of the most difficult moments we can remember, a few hours away from the general election.

I would like to support this statement with several facts:

First, the false information that there had been suicide bombers, which was directed at discrediting the government's management and introduce what, if it had been true, would have been a determining element in confirming Islamic perpetration of the attacks.

The government was accused of knowing about and covering up, since the morning of March 11, the contents of the van found in Alcalá. A false accusation. False then, and certified false by the testimony before this very commission.

The rumor was propagated that high-ranking police officers had resigned en masse in a protest against the government. Again, false information, which I can only understand as an attempt to destabilize the leadership and the management of the antiterrorist struggle at that moment.

The story was fabricated that the minister of Interior had seen the King and submitted for his signature a decree suspending the elections. Again, a malicious rumor aimed at creating a climate of abnormality and delegitimization of the government through libel and rumor.

It was even said that the White House was going to publicly announce Al Qaeda's responsiblity. The White House never thought of doing such a thing.

Things led to such a level of deformation that when the existence and the contents of the video claiming responsibility were announced, one radio network actually reported to its listeners that they had known about the existence of the video since that morning, but they had held up the news in order to behave responsibly. (That video was not filmed until 5 PM on the day it was found.)

Such a level of journalistic irresponsibility and unprofessionalism is unthinkable in any politically sophisticated society, as is the mass stampede of a sizable bloc of Spanish voters based on their uncritical acceptance of what they were told. Fortunately, more than 9 million Spanish voters were not swayed, but unfortunately, with the help of Osama Bin Laden, the Socialists and their allies in the press managed to hijack the election.

See, in a democracy, there are written and unwritten rules regarding what you're allowed to do in order to influence the voters. These rules may change over the years. An example is that before about 1980, in US politics, there was an unwritten rule that the press didn't interfere in politicians' private lives. By 1990 that had changed. There is still an unwritten rule that the press shouldn't interfere with politicians' children until about age 21.

One of the most important unwritten rules is that if you're a responsible informer, you don't spread rumors. You don't announce stuff on the air that you don't know for sure is true, whether you're a reporter, an opinion commentator, or a politician yourself. There is no way that the Spanish media, especially the SER, can be said to have behaved responsibly between March 11 and 14. They absolutely did not obey this unwritten rule. I doubt they know it exists.

http://iberiannotes.blogspot.com/200...ara-aznar.html

pedro padilla · 12-01-2004, 06:01 PM

1. actually if Aznar had been running it would have been close. The PP, popular party ran his succesor, Rajoy, an extremely bellicose, elitist and very uncharismatic politician. The vote in Spain was the lowest turnout since Franco died. Only 77% of the eligible voters showed up. All time low. Pathetic ain´t it.
2. Your son surely speaks better Spanish than I do but I don´t talk English too good neither. His experience in Spain, good or bad as it was, can´t really have been anything but a spanish speaking Americans brief impression. No matter where you´re from, 1 year in a foreign country is far too little time to be any sort of authority.
Generally the Morroquis that enter Europe through España do the shit work that the Spanish don´t want. Picking fruit. Washing dishes. Lots and lots of illegal plentiful construction work. Dangerous scaffolding 6 floors up. 600 bucks a month. 12 hours a day. The Arabs and Pakistanis flipped when they learned I was an American lugging buckets of cement all day. But. I didn´t have work papers either and I had to eat.
Basically they do what the latin Americans are doing in your neighborhood. Working 2 shit jobs you don´t want, living with 8 people in a 2 bdrm. apt. and sending money home to support family.
and 1. DVDs and CDs are total Chinese Mafias. They hire some Pakistanis for the streetsales but no, definately not an Arab scam.
2. I´ve seen quite a few muggings in my time in many parts of the world. Especially in America. That must mean most muggers are American.
3. They sell drugs. I know. I buy them. Best hashish in the world round here. I´d only be upset if they sold garbage. Vodka tonic for you and a joint for me. Cannibis is not a real heavy concern of most informed folk.
It´s also worthy of noting that almost all the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Yet Bush went after Iraq.
So anyway if Aznar had been running he might have won. I doubt it. It was nonetheless a pretty obvious rejection of his partys politics.
I´d be interested to see what you can show me about the general dislike of Morrocans here. Apart from your well spoken spanish son and his friends.
I think maybe you should realize that reading the UK press and analyzing the figures really does not give you any sort of understanding of a country and the mindset. Shit, sure wouldn´t work for the US would it? Te deseo mucho suerte.

sob · 12-01-2004, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

2. Your son surely speaks better Spanish than I do but I don´t talk English too good neither. His experience in Spain, good or bad as it was, can´t really have been anything but a spanish speaking Americans brief impression. No matter where you´re from, 1 year in a foreign country is far too little time to be any sort of authority.

He LOVED Spain, in spite of getting his pocket picked in Barcelona, which I believe you're near. Sent back gorgeous pictures from there.

I don't want to beat the Moroccan topic to death, but my exchange student shared his opinion. I'll just leave it by saying that when my son was coming back from a party or club on the Metro after 2 a.m., he avoided groups of Moroccans, due to what he'd witnessed. Maybe your area is better--he wasn't in the best part of Madrid, by any means.

Also, he experienced no anti-Americanism. I had told him to avoid talking politics. Most of the people he met were more interested in hearing him talk about life in southern California than in talking about Bush.

I take that back--he had an English class, and the teacher didn't like him, because the teacher's English wasn't very good. So score one for anti-Americanism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

Generally the Morroquis that enter Europe through España do the shit work that the Spanish don´t want. Picking fruit. Washing dishes. Lots and lots of illegal plentiful construction work. Dangerous scaffolding 6 floors up. 600 bucks a month. 12 hours a day. The Arabs and Pakistanis flipped when they learned I was an American lugging buckets of cement all day. But. I didn´t have work papers either and I had to eat.
Basically they do what the latin Americans are doing in your neighborhood. Working 2 shit jobs you don´t want, living with 8 people in a 2 bdrm. apt. and sending money home to support family.

He agrees with you on this. BTW, if you've seen some of my earlier posts, you might remember that I once mentioned living on the second floor of a house that had illegals living on the first floor. That's where he learned Spanish. Which was kind of funny, because due to his accent at the time he arrived, all of the Spanish kids thought he was a Mexican.

When I worked construction, I got tired of lugging buckets of cement, and managed to move up to cement finisher. Much easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

They sell drugs. I know. I buy them. Best hashish in the world round here. I´d only be upset if they sold garbage. Vodka tonic for you and a joint for me. Cannibis is not a real heavy concern of most informed folk.

I was told by a person in the know that penalties for drug use over there are stiff. Don't get caught.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

It´s also worthy of noting that almost all the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Yet Bush went after Iraq.

Another thread, another time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

I´d be interested to see what you can show me about the general dislike of Morrocans here. Apart from your well spoken spanish son and his friends.

A friend who was advising us prior to my son's trip stressed several points, among them:

1. Get a secure holder for your money and passport, because there are a lot of pickpockets (as I said, my son forgot that once too often).

2. Stay away from the Moroccans, because if you get caught with hashish, the penalties are severe. That was all it took to make me dislike Moroccans--While I have no problem with your lifestyle in regard to hash, I did not want to fly over to try to get my son out of jail.

3. Stay away from the gypsies.

4. Don't make the "okay" sign with your thumb and forefinger. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

Te deseo mucho suerte.

Muchas gracias, igualmente.

Ustwo · 12-01-2004, 08:22 PM

Quote:

- 4. Don't make the "okay" sign with your thumb and forefinger. :-)

Hehehe I made that 'mistake' once. Though I find it strange we should know they think its insulting, but are not required to know our version

MacGuyver · 12-01-2004, 08:51 PM

I've seen this article, I actually have it in my AIM profile. Canada is lookin damn good right about now. All I need's a good canadian girl to marry and then I can move to Canada!

Lebell · 12-01-2004, 10:08 PM

Thanks for redeeming the thread, fellas

pedro padilla · 12-01-2004, 10:33 PM

actually the soft drug penalties are almost nonexistent. cannabis is to a large extent decriminalized. France however is a bit nasty.

11-29-2004, 01:10 PM	#123 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Actually, the point I was making is that is irrelevant whose ancestors were here first, you personally were not here "first". Nor do I see people who came here out of religious persecution (which, btw, was not usually because they were more liberal, but because they were different than the established state religion) telling you to "leave". What I see is people saying that if you are unhappy here and want to leave, then leave. Several more of us are saying that this is a silly thing to leave your country over. I have not seen anyone in this thread saying, "America: love it or leave it". __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-30-2004, 10:18 PM	#126 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Sob and Pedro. Cut out the sarcasm and personal comments or face a temp ban. You guys aren't rookies and don't have the excuse of not knowing better. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-30-2004, 10:24 PM	#127 (permalink)
^Ice_Bat^ Insane Location: Southpark, Colorado	Here is my non-paritison answer to the question. If you are unhappy about the way the country is going get involved. No changes will ever happen if you just leave and give up altogether. That's weak in my opinion. Either party that would choose to retreat rather than stand and fight are weak. So if you are a democrat or republican who's unhappy about the way the country is going, then voice your opinion. The country needs diversity so that we can continue to grow and better suit the needs of everyone. __________________ If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic. - Jack Handy

12-01-2004, 08:51 PM	#134 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	I've seen this article, I actually have it in my AIM profile. Canada is lookin damn good right about now. All I need's a good canadian girl to marry and then I can move to Canada! __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

12-01-2004, 10:08 PM	#135 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Thanks for redeeming the thread, fellas __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-30-2004, 08:07 PM	#125 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	point by point. 1. El Pais, (leading Spanish newspaper) showed Aznar at 30 to Zapateros 70 about 2 weeks before elections. This is taking to account the fact that Spanish polls are notorious for being conducted in upper class districts. El Periodico put Aznar at 40 to 60. La Vanguardia said he was lucky if he could wrap up 40%. No, the polls did not come out in his favor. Sorry BBC is UK. This is Spain. 2. Your American son and all his American pals in Madrid do not mean shit. Didn´t they get the hint? Americans are way more hated than anyone else on this continent. Your sons 4 week Spanish fiesta probably consisted of overpriced rotgut sangria in typical tourist bars which (surprise) attract the sleaziest and most desperate kind of Morrocans. Your son? Everyone he knew hated... Yeah, I´m sure thats true. McTourist. or should I say McRacist? 3.If you can accept 2nd hand uninformed info concerning a country you personally know absolutely nothing about, you should really get pissed off at the rest of the world for being so accurately informed about the arrogant ignorance being spewed by worldly scholars such as yourself. unadulterated crap. Yeah, That pretty much sums it up. You best school you self, fool.

12-01-2004, 06:01 PM	#131 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	1. actually if Aznar had been running it would have been close. The PP, popular party ran his succesor, Rajoy, an extremely bellicose, elitist and very uncharismatic politician. The vote in Spain was the lowest turnout since Franco died. Only 77% of the eligible voters showed up. All time low. Pathetic ain´t it. 2. Your son surely speaks better Spanish than I do but I don´t talk English too good neither. His experience in Spain, good or bad as it was, can´t really have been anything but a spanish speaking Americans brief impression. No matter where you´re from, 1 year in a foreign country is far too little time to be any sort of authority. Generally the Morroquis that enter Europe through España do the shit work that the Spanish don´t want. Picking fruit. Washing dishes. Lots and lots of illegal plentiful construction work. Dangerous scaffolding 6 floors up. 600 bucks a month. 12 hours a day. The Arabs and Pakistanis flipped when they learned I was an American lugging buckets of cement all day. But. I didn´t have work papers either and I had to eat. Basically they do what the latin Americans are doing in your neighborhood. Working 2 shit jobs you don´t want, living with 8 people in a 2 bdrm. apt. and sending money home to support family. and 1. DVDs and CDs are total Chinese Mafias. They hire some Pakistanis for the streetsales but no, definately not an Arab scam. 2. I´ve seen quite a few muggings in my time in many parts of the world. Especially in America. That must mean most muggers are American. 3. They sell drugs. I know. I buy them. Best hashish in the world round here. I´d only be upset if they sold garbage. Vodka tonic for you and a joint for me. Cannibis is not a real heavy concern of most informed folk. It´s also worthy of noting that almost all the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Yet Bush went after Iraq. So anyway if Aznar had been running he might have won. I doubt it. It was nonetheless a pretty obvious rejection of his partys politics. I´d be interested to see what you can show me about the general dislike of Morrocans here. Apart from your well spoken spanish son and his friends. I think maybe you should realize that reading the UK press and analyzing the figures really does not give you any sort of understanding of a country and the mindset. Shit, sure wouldn´t work for the US would it? Te deseo mucho suerte.

12-01-2004, 10:33 PM	#136 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	actually the soft drug penalties are almost nonexistent. cannabis is to a large extent decriminalized. France however is a bit nasty.