Leave or Fight? what would you do? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pedro padilla · 11-20-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprocket

This is commonly spouted by the anti-war crowd, like its a stone cold fact. How exactly is Bush sending thousands of fresh recruits to terrorist orginazations? Wheres your proof? Simply assuming thousands of terrorists are being "created" is fantasizing at best.

good point. Where´s my proof? Simply assuming thousands of terrorists are being created is the crux of the problem. Where the hell are all these terrorists? Not in Guatanamo. Not in Iraq. At least they weren´t there before. U.S. kill ´em all policy does not create loving allies out of armless orphans. No-one whos entire life and livelyhood has been destroyed by "liberators" is gonna throw flowers and kisses. Why do they hate us? gee, think about it. Bush policy is almost 100% assumption. Has been since day 1. or 11. When you assume you make an ass of u and me. Sorry, always wanted to use that phrase.

Ustwo · 11-20-2004, 04:49 PM

So anyone move yet or is just more hot air like 2000?

sprocket · 11-20-2004, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

good point. Where´s my proof? Simply assuming thousands of terrorists are being created is the crux of the problem. Where the hell are all these terrorists? Not in Guatanamo. Not in Iraq. At least they weren´t there before. U.S. kill ´em all policy does not create loving allies out of armless orphans. No-one whos entire life and livelyhood has been destroyed by "liberators" is gonna throw flowers and kisses. Why do they hate us? gee, think about it. Bush policy is almost 100% assumption. Has been since day 1. or 11. When you assume you make an ass of u and me. Sorry, always wanted to use that phrase.

Or mabye they look forward to the end of the war and the possibility of living with more freedom. Mabye they understand their leader (ie Saddam) did everything in his power for years to give america reasonable justification for war, and brought the suffering upon them. Mabye. Either way, we are still just assuming.

pedro padilla · 11-20-2004, 06:19 PM

reasonable justification? assumptions within assumptions within.... There is no justification whatsoever for the slaughter being commited under false homeland security whitewash. America is not exporting democracy. They are attempting to control mideast oil production.

aliali · 11-22-2004, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pedro padilla

I believe you´re mistaken. Bush is the biggest gift ever to radical terrorist factions. He sends them thousands of new recruits every week. The people here threw out Aznar based on a well founded belief that his extremely unpopular alliance with GW´s neocon admin. was a direct cause of the Madrid attacks. Don´t bother visiting. I really don´t think you´d like it here.

I get it now, helping to fight terrorists and free the oppressed caused the terrorists to kill a bunch of your innocent citizens and since the terrorists did that, it was the right thing to just give in. You must be right, just let the terrorists be, they only show up once in a while for a nice little mass murder. To fight them is to create them. To walk away from fighting them is just good old quality open-minded happy happy european sensibility.

Either way you argue it, you are admitting that the terrorists are deciding your elections for you. I still want to visit, why would anyone not like to visit Spain?

smooth · 11-22-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

I get it now, helping to fight terrorists and free the oppressed caused the terrorists to kill a bunch of your innocent citizens and since the terrorists did that, it was the right thing to just give in. You must be right, just let the terrorists be, they only show up once in a while for a nice little mass murder. To fight them is to create them. To walk away from fighting them is just good old quality open-minded happy happy european sensibility.

Either way you argue it, you are admitting that the terrorists are deciding your elections for you. I still want to visit, why would anyone not like to visit Spain?

"Just give in" ?

Do you know how many Spaniards have died from Al Queda attacks since the election?

aliali · 11-22-2004, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

"Just give in" ?

Do you know how many Spaniards have died from Al Queda attacks since the election?

No, I don't. Zero?

smooth · 11-22-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

No, I don't. Zero?

That's my understanding, too.

Seems like the Spanish technique was effective.

Lebell · 11-22-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

That's my understanding, too.

Seems like the Spanish technique was effective.

It will probably continue to work so long as Spain gives in to their demands, whatever those demands may be.

Of course, one of the demands for the US is to stop supporting Israel, which is to essentially say, "Sorry guys, you're on your own as far as the Arabs wanting to slaughter you all."

Of course, it would also free the Israelis to do what they want as far as the occupied territories go.

Which of course might lead some nations (like Iran) to conclude that the US wouldn't respond to an attack on Israel.

Of course, Israel might feel it necessary to respond with nukes, possibly pre-emptively if Iran had them.

So should we give in as well?

aliali · 11-23-2004, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

That's my understanding, too.

Seems like the Spanish technique was effective.

Effective at what? Emboldening them to try to impact other elections. Confirm for them that terror works and a great democracy will bend to their will. Give them a great success story they can use to recruit new members. Help them kill people in other countries. Increase their fund raising.

How many have died as a result of al queda attacks in Canada, Poland, Australia, Britain, Germany, U.S., S. Africa, Portugal, or any country other than Iraq since the Spanish attack? The claim of effectiveness demonstrates that we all don't have a real good understanding for how these people work.

I guess we can all disagree on whether the Spainish people made the correct choice in the election, but no one seems to dispute the fact that Spain gave in as a result of the terror attack. All they wanted this time was a few hundred of your innocents and an election. I'd be concerned for what they are going to ask for next.

Publius · 11-23-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

I guess we can all disagree on whether the Spainish people made the correct choice in the election, but no one seems to dispute the fact that Spain gave in as a result of the terror attack.

Hmmm well this does seem like a very bold statement then doesn’t it? Well I will be the first to admit that I really don’t know much about the internal politics of Spain prior to the bombing there, but I’m guessing neither do most of the people here either. So that being said let me play devil’s advocate here for just a moment. Could it be that the Spanish people didn’t “capitulate” to terrorist demands as some would have us believe? Seems to me that a lot of the population wasn’t very happy with their political leadership prior to the election anyway. It could just be that the bombing their simply galvanized the population in their resolve to get out the vote on election day to replace their government with one that they believed would more accurately reflect the opinion of their population instead of “capitulating” to the demands of the US. It is important to bare in mind that the war in Iraq is very unpopular globally and has already cost more then a few politicians their jobs.

And here is a question for thought, what would have happened had the US been hit at home with a similar attack just prior to the election? (Course this is all hypothetical at this point, thank God that we weren’t). Would the democrats have been able to get out the vote more or less do you suppose? Would support for an administration claiming to be keeping us safe from attacks (while the other guys wouldn’t be able to ie. Dick Cheney’s remarks) have increased or, more likely, decreased after such an event? Just something to ponder.

Willravel · 11-23-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

It will probably continue to work so long as Spain gives in to their demands, whatever those demands may be.

Of course, one of the demands for the US is to stop supporting Israel, which is to essentially say, "Sorry guys, you're on your own as far as the Arabs wanting to slaughter you all."

Of course, it would also free the Israelis to do what they want as far as the occupied territories go.

Which of course might lead some nations (like Iran) to conclude that the US wouldn't respond to an attack on Israel.

Of course, Israel might feel it necessary to respond with nukes, possibly pre-emptively if Iran had them.

So should we give in as well?

Youv'e thought this through. That's a rare quality.

We were the ones who armed the Isrealites. Well, it was the US and the UK. We paid for them to develope one of the lergest armys on the planet, and we gave them nuclear technology. We give somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 billion to Isreal every year. If we heald onto that, it could pretty much balance the budget in a few years, BTW. So what doies Isreal do in response to this wonderful support? They spy on us.

I say leave them to their own devices and tell them that if they decide to nuke, we'll blow them to kindgom come. That's americas standard stand on nuclear attacks. "You can have them, just don't use them. Actually, you're going to have to do what we say from now on", says Uncle(ar) Sam.

aliali · 11-23-2004, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius

Hmmm well this does seem like a very bold statement then doesn’t it? Well I will be the first to admit that I really don’t know much about the internal politics of Spain prior to the bombing there, but I’m guessing neither do most of the people here either. So that being said let me play devil’s advocate here for just a moment. Could it be that the Spanish people didn’t “capitulate” to terrorist demands as some would have us believe? Seems to me that a lot of the population wasn’t very happy with their political leadership prior to the election anyway. It could just be that the bombing their simply galvanized the population in their resolve to get out the vote on election day to replace their government with one that they believed would more accurately reflect the opinion of their population instead of “capitulating” to the demands of the US. It is important to bare in mind that the war in Iraq is very unpopular globally and has already cost more then a few politicians their jobs.

And here is a question for thought, what would have happened had the US been hit at home with a similar attack just prior to the election? (Course this is all hypothetical at this point, thank God that we weren’t). Would the democrats have been able to get out the vote more or less do you suppose? Would support for an administration claiming to be keeping us safe from attacks (while the other guys wouldn’t be able to ie. Dick Cheney’s remarks) have increased or, more likely, decreased after such an event? Just something to ponder.

I'm not claiming to know all that much about Spanish politics, I'm just saying no one here seems to be disputing the impact of the terrorist attack preceding the election both in intent by the terrorists and capitulation by the electorate. It is my understanding that the candidate who backed US efforts re: terrorism and Iraq (of course, not completely) was unquestionably ahead in the polls prior to the attack and lost the election because of the attack. If I am wrong, I'm sure there is someone out there who knows more about it than me.

If it is assumed that the terrorists had that type of an impact on a great democracy, I wouldn't call it a success just that there haven't been any attacks in the past few months in Spain. Bullies don't just want your lunch money once.

If it happened here in 04, my guess is that W would have won by a greater margin. The outcome may be different in a different circumstances. I'm sure Dick Cheney would have said whatever he thought would help W get re-elected if an attack happened just like he did when an attack didn't happen.

Publius · 11-23-2004, 03:38 PM

Now that you have perked my interest in this topic I decided to go do a little reading to see what I could learn and it didn’t take me very long to find evidence to confirm my suspicions. I found this article to be a good break down of the events in Spain’s elections.

Quote:

American Conservatives Misread the Spanish Election

by Ted Galen Carpenter

Seldom has mythology arisen so quickly about an event as it has with regard to the election results in Spain. Hordes of conservative pundits in the United States have rushed to condemn the unexpected defeat of the right-wing Popular Party as a vote for the appeasement of terrorism. According to the conservative conventional wisdom, Spanish voters, in an appalling act of cowardice, reacted to the terrorist bombings in Madrid by ousting the party that had loyally supported the Bush administration's war on terror, and especially the war in Iraq.

Such an interpretation profoundly misreads the election results. Although Al Qaeda may believe that the outcome vindicates a strategy of intimidation, there is no evidence that Spanish voters intended to convey a message of appeasement. Indeed, in his first news conference, the new prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, emphasized that combating terrorism would be a top priority of his government. Spain has been resolute all along in helping the United States identify and disrupt Al Qaeda cells in that country. Now that Spanish blood has been shed on Spanish soil by the terrorists, that resolve is likely to be strengthened, not weakened.

But just because the Spanish people are determined to combat radical Islamic terrorism does not mean that they have an obligation to endorse the U.S. intervention in Iraq. The election results confirm that a majority of Spaniards make a distinction between those two missions. That is not surprising, because large majorities around the world have made a similar distinction. Indeed, it is a distinction that seems to elude few people -- except for a majority of conservatives in the United States.

Public opinion surveys before, during, and after the Iraq war showed that 80 to 90 percent of Spanish voters opposed the U.S. policy. Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's government took a great risk in defying such overwhelming sentiment by supporting the U.S. war and occupation. It should not come as a surprise that, in a healthy democratic system, a political party that arrogantly ignores the public's near consensus on an important issue may go down to defeat in the next election.

True, opinion polls showed the Popular Party with a modest lead over the opposition Socialists before the Madrid bombings. That was largely because the Iraq war had faded as a salient issue for most voters. The bombings of the commuter trains again elevated the prominence of the Iraq issue. And when that happened, voters remembered their irritation with the Aznar government.

The Aznar administration compounded the Popular Party's renewed problems by prematurely and tenaciously attributing the bombings to the radical Basque separatist group ETA. When evidence continued to mount that Al Qaeda, not ETA, was probably responsible for the atrocities, a good many Spanish voters concluded that the government was manipulating the tragedy for its own political advantage. They suspected (with good reason) that Aznar and his associates were trying to blame ETA to conceal the reality that the attacks were a payback for Spain's support of Washington's Iraq policy. Not surprisingly, voters did not react well to such attempts at self-serving political deception.

Those Americans who accuse Spaniards of appeasement exhibit a lack of respect for the workings of Spain's democratic system. They implicitly assume that voters had an obligation to return the Popular Party to power, even though that party did not reflect the will of the people on a crucial issue. Critics of the election result have no right to expect such sheep-like behavior, however much it might have benefited the foreign policy of the Bush administration.

The outcome of Spain's election was a referendum on Iraq policy, not policy toward Al Qaeda. Allegations of appeasement are a despicable slur against a population that has already suffered grievously.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-24-04.html

Ustwo · 11-23-2004, 07:42 PM

Spanish Polls before attack - Aznar

After attack

Zapatero

Good enough for me.

Locobot · 11-24-2004, 08:37 AM

Spanish polls before the goverment lied to the people about the attack - Aznar

after lies

Zapatero

Good enough for me.

aliali · 11-24-2004, 08:37 AM

I believe that Mr. Carpenter knows a lot more about this than me, but this is simply an opinion piece with no factual basis for the conclusions. I'm not saying he is wrong, but I don't see the proof behind the conclusion that the change in polls was b/c of Iraq rather and al qaeda. What we know as fact is that one party was ahead in the polls and that changed after the al qaeda attack. What about Iraq changed in that short period of time? Also, I don't think allegations of appeasement are a slur. I think it probably happened in this case. You can argue about whether or not it is a bad thing--I think it is, but closing your eyes to it and making excuses because you are a more thoughtful and nuanced writer for the CATA Institute doesn't help convince me.

Publius · 11-24-2004, 12:52 PM

Well you are right there aliali, this is just an opinion piece, but then again so are all the other “reports” about the election and the effects the train bombing had upon it unless of course someone is going to poll every single Spaniard who was thinking of voting for Prime Minister Aznar before the bombing and instead voted for Zapatero afterwards to see why exactly they changed their mind.

Ustwo · 11-24-2004, 01:00 PM

So, anyone buy that ticket to socialist freedom?

silent_jay · 11-24-2004, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Now if you asked me to pick a home based on Starbucks versus Tim Horton's, I'd make a run for the border.

Nothing beats a good Timmy's 'eh MSD? I've had Starbucks up here in Ottawa and it's tricky just to get a coffee flavoured coffee. I have to tell them I want a coffee, no fancy shit, just a bloody coffee, and when I finally get it, it's terrible

Manx · 11-24-2004, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So anyone move yet or is just more hot air like 2000?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So, anyone buy that ticket to socialist freedom?

This seems to be important to you. I'm willing to accept your donation so that I can more quickly answer in the affirmative.

manx@paypal.com

aliali · 11-24-2004, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius

Well you are right there aliali, this is just an opinion piece, but then again so are all the other “reports” about the election and the effects the train bombing had upon it unless of course someone is going to poll every single Spaniard who was thinking of voting for Prime Minister Aznar before the bombing and instead voted for Zapatero afterwards to see why exactly they changed their mind.

Can't say I disagree with you and I didn't really want to get into a big argument about the Spanish elections. I like Spain. My guess is that they may have elected the right guy, but it sure looks like they reacted to the attack and voted the way al qaeda wanted them to vote. Whether or not that is true, it would be hard to convince the planners and attackers that they didn't impact the election and hard to convince them that their tactics-mass murder of innocent citizens--are not supremely effective in certain parts of the world.

sprocket · 11-24-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

This seems to be important to you. I'm willing to accept your donation so that I can more quickly answer in the affirmative.

manx@paypal.com

You have to get to the socialist country BEFORE you get the handouts.. thats how it works.

/me runs for cover!

*sorry... couldnt resist.. you just painted a big red target on your forehead

*

Manx · 11-24-2004, 10:01 PM

You're talking about government sponsorship. I'm talking about personal charitable contributions. That is what's supposed to save the world once Ustwo eliminates welfare, right?

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 02:50 PM

I haven´t checked this thread in a few days so I´ll just lump all my misinfomed responses together. Before elections here in Spain, Aznar was a genuinely hated individual. Some of the largest anti war demonstrations in the world took place here. I hit the streets of Barcelona with a million people. A million. 99% of the Spanish people were vehemently and vocally opposed to Aznar´s pro Bush stance!
There was no love lost for the short little mustached fool before the March 11th attacks. Basically they reinforced the strong public opinion that it was a bad move to get involved in the first place.
Here in Spain we live with an enormous islamic culture dating back as far as written records. Morrocans and Algerians are easily as prevelent, if not more so, then Mexicans and people of Latino heritage in the US. Because of this there is an understanding and respect for the culture and beliefs of these genuinely good neighbors. High school graduates here can pont out Iraq on a map. North Korea and Cuba also. High school grads in the states these days seem barely able to spell their own name. Education is awareness.
Preventive attack mentality has only served to create more hatred and hostility. Terrorists in Iraq? Yeah sure, there´s a whole bunch of the shitheads there now. I really doubt that they were flocking to Fallujah before.
Like Iraq? You´re gonna love Iran.

Tophat665 · 11-25-2004, 08:12 PM

Stay and Fight. **Edited - I am leaving it right there. **

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tophat665

Stay and Fight. **Edited - I am leaving it right there. **

you go and fight. If you´re not in Iraq at the moment you should probably keep it to yourself. If you are, sorry, not my fault.

Tophat665 · 11-25-2004, 08:37 PM

No no no. Stay and fight. Fight to get a better congress, a better president, better governors and legislatures. Better schools too, so that, if people do decide to vote for the kind of folks they did last election, then at least they will have good reasons, as Art tends to, and not knee jerk reactions.

Not all fighting is about guns and bombs.

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 08:40 PM

ok alright . I had you all wrong. my sentiments exactly.

Ustwo · 11-26-2004, 09:51 PM

So in other words no one is really leaving.

*Sigh*

Paq · 11-26-2004, 10:07 PM

Ustwo, paypal me a mere $15K, and i'll leave right now

Ustwo · 11-26-2004, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

Ustwo, paypal me a mere $15K, and i'll leave right now

www.helpthemleave.com

mml · 11-28-2004, 10:28 PM

First let me just state that this is only my opinion, and that I am completely convinced that while it is only my opinion, I am completely right.

If someone wants to take the opportunity to experience life in another part of the world, I have no qualms about it. There are innumerable good reasons to do so. To leave because the person you wanted to win an election did not or because a certain person did, is not one of these many reasons; at least if you truly believe in democracy. As of yet, no one can prove to me that this was a rigged election (ask the people in Ukraine about those), so like it or not George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States. To leave a country where we truly have the ability to make a difference in our government, is showing a great lack of respect for those who have worked and fought and died for us to have the power to do so. I get very frustrated when I hear people want to leave. What this country needs are people who want to get involved and work to make this an even greater country. Do we have problems? Of course we do, but walking away from them is no answer. If you don't like what is going on, if you don't like what this administration is doing then get involved. Work with community groups, talk to your representatives, write letters, Hell RUN FOR OFFICE!!! To leave the country is the only surefire way to guarantee you will not have a voice in how our country is governed. If you truly feel this is your only option, then I will join the chorus of others who have said, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." What I would prefer is that you join me and many others as members of the Loyal Opposition. Those who are proud to be Americans, but are stiving to change the direction this nation is headed and to shine light on the errors, misjudgements and any wrongdoings of this administration and conversly support this administration when it makes good decisions. America should never be about throwing in the towel, it should be about picking yourself up off the floor and getting back into the fight.

smooth · 11-28-2004, 11:17 PM

It strikes me as strangely ironic to hear all this talk about who's country this is from right wing, mainly christian oriented people.

As I understand your cultural history, you came to *my* country because *your* country was too conservative for your ancestors' tastes. Now that *your* countries are firmly liberal in your views, why not go back?

I mean, it's just strange that people landed here, killed my ancestors, and then make all these wierd claims that I shouldn't let the door hit me in the ass as I'm leaving "their" country.

Just a reminder: just because you took something over doesn't make it yours--never was. funny how I have to go to your ancestors' country to get away from your ideas and social conditions.

/signed by a real American.

Lebell · 11-29-2004, 07:49 AM

The last time I checked, the only requirement to be a real American was to be born here, which I believe we both were.

If we are talking about ancestors, several of mine were born here as well.

If we are talking about when our ancestors got here, it is a matter of degrees, with your ancestors getting here a few thousand years before my ancestors, which in terms of the age of this planet and how long life has been here, is a blink of the eye.

roachboy · 11-29-2004, 08:11 AM

this pollyanna talk about picking yourself up and getting back into "the fight" seems absurd. it presupposes as operational precisely the set of relations to the states that most of the folk who are considering leaving have found undermined by the act of collective self-immolation that was this past election.

i think that even a far right militant would understand that if you are going to leave it requires some planning to do it, each step of which is another opportunity to think through the decision. i suspect you will be seeing people leaving over the next couple of years. that anyone would imagine that it is possible to simply pack up your toys and leave in a week or so operates with a view of what is entailed that derives more from sitcoms like "sex in the city" (in which everyone wears 2000 dollar outfits every day) than it does the world in which people actually have to make a living.

but whatever--this thread has been more about the right deploying ugly little variants of their particular way of resenting those who oppose them politically than it was talking about what might really be at stake for folk who are thinking of leaving.

miyamotomusashi · 11-29-2004, 08:40 AM

Would I leave (the united states of) america? Not yet
I live in MA. My Famly and I hate bush and the right wing. If I had no job and famly attachments I would leave. There are many places I would like to go and Canada is far closer to my view of a good Gov't then USA is. If a draft is started, or if bush gets any more asertive about the constitution I will atempt to leave the country.
Though if secession...

Averett · 11-29-2004, 08:48 AM

I just want to point out that it's really fucking hard leaving this country for Canada. There's endless waits and paperwork and money involved.

That being said, if anyone wants to donate to me moving to Canada I'd be more than willing to take your money

Ustwo · 11-29-2004, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mml

First let me just state that this is only my opinion, and that I am completely convinced that while it is only my opinion, I am completely right.

If someone wants to take the opportunity to experience life in another part of the world, I have no qualms about it. There are innumerable good reasons to do so. To leave because the person you wanted to win an election did not or because a certain person did, is not one of these many reasons; at least if you truly believe in democracy. As of yet, no one can prove to me that this was a rigged election (ask the people in Ukraine about those), so like it or not George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States. To leave a country where we truly have the ability to make a difference in our government, is showing a great lack of respect for those who have worked and fought and died for us to have the power to do so. I get very frustrated when I hear people want to leave. What this country needs are people who want to get involved and work to make this an even greater country. Do we have problems? Of course we do, but walking away from them is no answer. If you don't like what is going on, if you don't like what this administration is doing then get involved. Work with community groups, talk to your representatives, write letters, Hell RUN FOR OFFICE!!! To leave the country is the only surefire way to guarantee you will not have a voice in how our country is governed. If you truly feel this is your only option, then I will join the chorus of others who have said, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." What I would prefer is that you join me and many others as members of the Loyal Opposition. Those who are proud to be Americans, but are stiving to change the direction this nation is headed and to shine light on the errors, misjudgements and any wrongdoings of this administration and conversly support this administration when it makes good decisions. America should never be about throwing in the towel, it should be about picking yourself up off the floor and getting back into the fight.

You know MML for the first time ever, and without any hesitation, I wholey 100% agree with you, and could not have said it better myself.

Ustwo · 11-29-2004, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

It strikes me as strangely ironic to hear all this talk about who's country this is from right wing, mainly christian oriented people.

As I understand your cultural history, you came to *my* country because *your* country was too conservative for your ancestors' tastes. Now that *your* countries are firmly liberal in your views, why not go back?

I mean, it's just strange that people landed here, killed my ancestors, and then make all these wierd claims that I shouldn't let the door hit me in the ass as I'm leaving "their" country.

Just a reminder: just because you took something over doesn't make it yours--never was. funny how I have to go to your ancestors' country to get away from your ideas and social conditions.

/signed by a real American.

The ironic thing is there is a growing theory based on some very interesting archeological evidence that the 'first' Americans came several thousand years earlier then expected and were in turn wiped out by a second wave from Asia. Be quite ironic if true don't you think?

11-20-2004, 04:49 PM	#82 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So anyone move yet or is just more hot air like 2000? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-23-2004, 07:42 PM	#95 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Spanish Polls before attack - Aznar After attack Zapatero Good enough for me. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-24-2004, 01:00 PM	#99 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So, anyone buy that ticket to socialist freedom? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-25-2004, 08:12 PM	#106 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Stay and Fight. Edited - I am leaving it right there. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

11-25-2004, 08:37 PM	#108 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	No no no. Stay and fight. Fight to get a better congress, a better president, better governors and legislatures. Better schools too, so that, if people do decide to vote for the kind of folks they did last election, then at least they will have good reasons, as Art tends to, and not knee jerk reactions. Not all fighting is about guns and bombs. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

11-20-2004, 06:19 PM	#84 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	reasonable justification? assumptions within assumptions within.... There is no justification whatsoever for the slaughter being commited under false homeland security whitewash. America is not exporting democracy. They are attempting to control mideast oil production.

11-24-2004, 08:37 AM	#96 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Spanish polls before the goverment lied to the people about the attack - Aznar after lies Zapatero Good enough for me.

11-24-2004, 08:37 AM	#97 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	I believe that Mr. Carpenter knows a lot more about this than me, but this is simply an opinion piece with no factual basis for the conclusions. I'm not saying he is wrong, but I don't see the proof behind the conclusion that the change in polls was b/c of Iraq rather and al qaeda. What we know as fact is that one party was ahead in the polls and that changed after the al qaeda attack. What about Iraq changed in that short period of time? Also, I don't think allegations of appeasement are a slur. I think it probably happened in this case. You can argue about whether or not it is a bad thing--I think it is, but closing your eyes to it and making excuses because you are a more thoughtful and nuanced writer for the CATA Institute doesn't help convince me.

11-24-2004, 12:52 PM	#98 (permalink)
Publius Crazy Location: Never Never Land	Well you are right there aliali, this is just an opinion piece, but then again so are all the other “reports” about the election and the effects the train bombing had upon it unless of course someone is going to poll every single Spaniard who was thinking of voting for Prime Minister Aznar before the bombing and instead voted for Zapatero afterwards to see why exactly they changed their mind.

11-24-2004, 10:01 PM	#104 (permalink)
Manx Loser	You're talking about government sponsorship. I'm talking about personal charitable contributions. That is what's supposed to save the world once Ustwo eliminates welfare, right?

11-25-2004, 02:50 PM	#105 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	I haven´t checked this thread in a few days so I´ll just lump all my misinfomed responses together. Before elections here in Spain, Aznar was a genuinely hated individual. Some of the largest anti war demonstrations in the world took place here. I hit the streets of Barcelona with a million people. A million. 99% of the Spanish people were vehemently and vocally opposed to Aznar´s pro Bush stance! There was no love lost for the short little mustached fool before the March 11th attacks. Basically they reinforced the strong public opinion that it was a bad move to get involved in the first place. Here in Spain we live with an enormous islamic culture dating back as far as written records. Morrocans and Algerians are easily as prevelent, if not more so, then Mexicans and people of Latino heritage in the US. Because of this there is an understanding and respect for the culture and beliefs of these genuinely good neighbors. High school graduates here can pont out Iraq on a map. North Korea and Cuba also. High school grads in the states these days seem barely able to spell their own name. Education is awareness. Preventive attack mentality has only served to create more hatred and hostility. Terrorists in Iraq? Yeah sure, there´s a whole bunch of the shitheads there now. I really doubt that they were flocking to Fallujah before. Like Iraq? You´re gonna love Iran.

11-25-2004, 08:40 PM	#109 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	ok alright . I had you all wrong. my sentiments exactly.

11-26-2004, 09:51 PM	#110 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So in other words no one is really leaving. Sigh __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-26-2004, 10:07 PM	#111 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	Ustwo, paypal me a mere $15K, and i'll leave right now __________________ Live. Chris

11-28-2004, 10:28 PM	#113 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	First let me just state that this is only my opinion, and that I am completely convinced that while it is only my opinion, I am completely right. If someone wants to take the opportunity to experience life in another part of the world, I have no qualms about it. There are innumerable good reasons to do so. To leave because the person you wanted to win an election did not or because a certain person did, is not one of these many reasons; at least if you truly believe in democracy. As of yet, no one can prove to me that this was a rigged election (ask the people in Ukraine about those), so like it or not George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States. To leave a country where we truly have the ability to make a difference in our government, is showing a great lack of respect for those who have worked and fought and died for us to have the power to do so. I get very frustrated when I hear people want to leave. What this country needs are people who want to get involved and work to make this an even greater country. Do we have problems? Of course we do, but walking away from them is no answer. If you don't like what is going on, if you don't like what this administration is doing then get involved. Work with community groups, talk to your representatives, write letters, Hell RUN FOR OFFICE!!! To leave the country is the only surefire way to guarantee you will not have a voice in how our country is governed. If you truly feel this is your only option, then I will join the chorus of others who have said, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." What I would prefer is that you join me and many others as members of the Loyal Opposition. Those who are proud to be Americans, but are stiving to change the direction this nation is headed and to shine light on the errors, misjudgements and any wrongdoings of this administration and conversly support this administration when it makes good decisions. America should never be about throwing in the towel, it should be about picking yourself up off the floor and getting back into the fight. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

11-28-2004, 11:17 PM	#114 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	It strikes me as strangely ironic to hear all this talk about who's country this is from right wing, mainly christian oriented people. As I understand your cultural history, you came to my country because your country was too conservative for your ancestors' tastes. Now that your countries are firmly liberal in your views, why not go back? I mean, it's just strange that people landed here, killed my ancestors, and then make all these wierd claims that I shouldn't let the door hit me in the ass as I'm leaving "their" country. Just a reminder: just because you took something over doesn't make it yours--never was. funny how I have to go to your ancestors' country to get away from your ideas and social conditions. /signed by a real American. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

11-29-2004, 07:49 AM	#115 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	The last time I checked, the only requirement to be a real American was to be born here, which I believe we both were. If we are talking about ancestors, several of mine were born here as well. If we are talking about when our ancestors got here, it is a matter of degrees, with your ancestors getting here a few thousand years before my ancestors, which in terms of the age of this planet and how long life has been here, is a blink of the eye. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-29-2004, 08:11 AM	#116 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this pollyanna talk about picking yourself up and getting back into "the fight" seems absurd. it presupposes as operational precisely the set of relations to the states that most of the folk who are considering leaving have found undermined by the act of collective self-immolation that was this past election. i think that even a far right militant would understand that if you are going to leave it requires some planning to do it, each step of which is another opportunity to think through the decision. i suspect you will be seeing people leaving over the next couple of years. that anyone would imagine that it is possible to simply pack up your toys and leave in a week or so operates with a view of what is entailed that derives more from sitcoms like "sex in the city" (in which everyone wears 2000 dollar outfits every day) than it does the world in which people actually have to make a living. but whatever--this thread has been more about the right deploying ugly little variants of their particular way of resenting those who oppose them politically than it was talking about what might really be at stake for folk who are thinking of leaving. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-29-2004, 08:40 AM	#117 (permalink)
miyamotomusashi Upright Location: MA, USA	Would I leave (the united states of) america? Not yet I live in MA. My Famly and I hate bush and the right wing. If I had no job and famly attachments I would leave. There are many places I would like to go and Canada is far closer to my view of a good Gov't then USA is. If a draft is started, or if bush gets any more asertive about the constitution I will atempt to leave the country. Though if secession...

11-29-2004, 08:48 AM	#118 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	I just want to point out that it's really fucking hard leaving this country for Canada. There's endless waits and paperwork and money involved. That being said, if anyone wants to donate to me moving to Canada I'd be more than willing to take your money __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.