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Manx	11-12-2004 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow

While I do agree with you on several points, and find your whole question intriguing, I must at least clarify a couple of your points. Soldiers have every right to disobey an order from a superior officer that violates the UCMJ, Geneva or whatever, as killing a child would, but I was not strictly speaking of illegal actions, only sanctioned actions, in which soldiers are expected to carry out their assignment.
I would also again state that I believe that carrying out orders is not the same as supporting them. Generally it is my understanding that except in extreme cases (again, we're talking about violations here, most likely) it is those who give the orders who are held most responsible. I don't necessarily like this idea, but frankly when given all of the variables of a combat arean, I can't think of a better solution.

I am very specifically speaking about actions which would fall within the UCMJ, Geneva or whatever - i.e., commonly accepted actions. Most certainly, soldiers who break those rules would be even more responsible.

There are degrees of responsibility. First and foremost, I hold the people that have decided to take our military to war as the most responsible. And then down through the chain of command. I simply do not stop placing responsibility on someone simply because they have been given an order. Any soldier who has killed a foreigner in the past 2 years (atleast) shares a portion of the responsibility for the immoral process of this war. Even the soldier that strongly disagrees with the war, but convinces himself to stay in order to support his fellow soldiers shares responsibility - he is an enabler. In my mind, the only honorable soldier is one who refuses to fight or administer. And the medics, even though they are technically enabling.

Quote:

As I said, I believe that we should never have engaged in this war in this manner, but it is not really as cut and dried as saying that we have no business being there so everything we do there is morally bankrupt.

I mentioned that it would be a seperate debate (one that has been repeated ad infinitum) to talk about the specifics of the morality of this war. But essentially I disagree - I fully believe there were avenues open to us which would have achieved our goal without the necessity of war. And instead it was decided that war was the path we would take, this is the definition of reprehensible.

joeshoe

11-13-2004 12:05 AM

I've met people who really dislike the military, both as an institution and what they perceive the people to be. I consider them misguided, and personally have great respect for the military.

Seaver

11-13-2004 11:34 AM

First off I would like to apologize for breaking the rules earlier in this thread. No, I'm not apologizing for what I said, but I apologize for breaking the rules.

I feel I must explain what happened just that day. I was eating lunch in uniform when some bastard threw fish at me. Mind you we were having inspection that day, so the uniform HAD to look its best. Luckily it missed, he came over and tried to get me to pick a fight with him, yet I couldnt lift a finger to him because of yes, the higher standard we are held to.

So I made that post when I was still pissed off from it. I went out to go running to calm down, and when I came back my account was blocked for 24 hours. It was wrong of me to attack him personally like that, but I felt he did just that to me.

roachboy

11-13-2004 11:52 AM

threw a fish at you?
a fish?
geez.

there are fuckwits everywhere.

routing this astonishing observation through the topic of the thread, the set of people who oppose this war is not equivalent to the set of fuckwits.

for myself, when i see someone in uniform i usually figure that the situation is not one in which i would start talking about the politics of the war. if i do talk with someone in uniform, and if they are heading to iraq, i usually wish them luck in not getting killed there or something like that.
if i ran into the head of the joint chiefs of staff in a tavern, it might go otherwise.
but that does not seem likely.
because at least he occupies a position where he could be held to account for the politics that inform the war in itself.
the folk who are getting sent there are getting sent there.

a fish?
jesus.
sorry you had to put up with that.

Seaver

11-13-2004 02:23 PM

Well to be technical it was some fish. He was eating some sort of fish sandwitch or something. Either way it doesnt change anything... and he either didnt cook it right, or left it too long in the fridge I could tell from the smell. But thanks, I know anti-war =! anti-military, but it's just hard to not lump everyone into that category immediately.

Rdr4evr

11-13-2004 02:35 PM

Nevermind........

Tarl Cabot

11-14-2004 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psyday

I find it funny that someone with your attitudes has a picture of a raider under their name and their location as -raider nation-. There is just something about football, the most violent team in the game, and peaceniks that go together, right?

I'd been wondering that myself--why someone with his perspective would support the dirtiest-playing team in the NFL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psyday

I'd die for your right to say what your opinion is, as I am sure you wouldn't for mine.

Psyday scores up the middle!!

I liked the rest of the post, too.

Tarl Cabot

11-14-2004 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

Executing instructions to implement a point of view that you do not agree with is analogous to supporting the point of view.

In that case, thanks for pointing out that the UN supported Saddam's point of view.

Tarl Cabot

11-14-2004 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

You mean he murdered some poor defenseless fish?????

I find that reaching for a cell phone and pretending to call the cops usually gets rid of dickheads like that.

It's a lot easier than filling out the paperwork if you follow your first instinct.

Tarl Cabot

11-14-2004 07:49 AM

Maybe this would be better posted as a new thread than here, but here goes:

In Desert Storm I, some military members (I believe they were SEALS) were inside Iraq doing recon. Concealed in a spiderhole. Before a major engagement.

Some little Iraqi kid came by, lifted the top, and saw two or three foreign soldiers inside.

Ethical dilemma:

Does the soldier

1. Kill the kid,
2. Try to capture the kid and keep him/her quiet
3. Let the kid go, knowing full well that the kid will tell its parents, and the result may be the torture/death of the American and his friends, as well as enabling the Iraqis to foil the assault. This, in turn, may result in the deaths of many more Americans.

I know how things went down, but for those who don't, it may be an interesting dilemma to ponder.

tecoyah

11-14-2004 08:02 AM

I think I saw this episode of JAG as well.

Bill O'Rights

11-14-2004 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I was eating lunch in uniform when some bastard threw fish at me.

Rest assured, seaver, that this ass will cry and wail the loudest, for intervention, if and when, his rights and freedoms are ever abridged.

Tarl Cabot

11-14-2004 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I think I saw this episode of JAG as well.

JAG may well have used it, but the incident I'm describing actually occurred.

How did it turn out on TV?

Rdr4evr

11-14-2004 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

routing this astonishing observation through the topic of the thread, the set of people who oppose this war is not equivalent to the set of fuckwits.

So are you saying one that opposes the military is a "fuckwit"?

Seaver

11-14-2004 05:15 PM

Quote:

So are you saying one that opposes the military is a "fuckwit"?

Sounds like it... but who am I but a heartless, warmongering, blood-lusting bastard to you?

SecretMethod70

11-14-2004 05:22 PM

Last warning before the thread is closed

Ustwo

11-14-2004 07:44 PM

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf

God bless and keep kicking ass.

smooth

11-14-2004 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

So are you saying one that opposes the military is a "fuckwit"?

I read it to mean that people who toss fish (or just rude/belligerent people, in general) on others are fuckwits.

The dude seaver described was acting like an idiot, irrespective of his political stance or how he feels about miitary people. Of course, maybe there was more to the story.

Rdr4evr

11-14-2004 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

I read it to mean that people who toss fish (or just rude/belligerent people, in general) on others are fuckwits.

You are most likely correct, but what led me to believe otherwise was the fact that he stated during his "observation" of this specific thread, he noticed "the set of people who oppose the war is not equivalent to the fuckwits." It appeared to me that he was referring to the few that are not exactly fond of the military (including myself) as opposed to the few that are for the military but not for the war. I could be completely wrong though.

martinguerre

11-14-2004 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf

God bless and keep kicking ass.

These are people's homes being cut in to pieces with gunfire and mortars. Widespread destruction costs innocent lives.

God bless and keep kicking ass? Sounds like a jihadist God to me.

Ustwo

11-14-2004 10:00 PM

Quote:

FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. Marines have found beheading chambers, bomb-making factories and even one Iraqi hostage as they swept through Fallujah — turning up hard evidence of the city’s role in the insurgent campaign to drive American forces from Iraq.

Marines on Sunday showed off what they called a bomb-making factory, where insurgents prepared roadside explosives and car bombs that have killed hundreds of Iraqi civilians and U.S. troops.

Wires, cell phones, Motorola handheld radios and a Plastic foam box packed with C4 plastic explosives sat in the dark building down an alley, along with three balaclava-style masks reading: “There is only one god, Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.”

“It’s all significant because this is not the kind of stuff an average household has,” said Lt. Kevin Kimner, 25, of Cincinnati assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines. “This is better than Radio Shack.”

So far U.S. troops have only found two hostages, one Iraqi and one Syrian. Marines last week found the Iraqi in a room with a black banner bearing the logo of one of Iraq’s extremist groups. He was chained to the wall, shackled hand and foot in front of a video camera. The floor was covered with blood.

The rescued Syrian was the driver for two French journalists, Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot, missing since August. The journalists have not been found, but France maintains they are still alive.

A Marine officer said he found signs that at least one foreign hostage was beheaded in that room. The Marine, who spoke on condition of anonymity, did not give details.

The Iraqi hostage, who had been beaten on the back with steel cables, said his tormentors were Syrian and that he thought he was in Syria until the Marines found him, the Marine said. Other militants came and went, but “The Syrians were always in charge,” the Marine said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...eping_fallujah

Quote:

In the south of the city, where insurgents regrouped over the weekend, the butchered body of a blonde-haired Caucasian woman was found Sunday lying on a street.

“It is a female ... missing all four appendages, with a slashed throat and disemboweled, she has been dead for a while but only in this location for a day or two,” said a Navy Corps hospital apprentice who had inspected the body.

Two foreign women have been abducted in Iraq and remain missing: Teresa Borcz, 54, a Pole, has blonde hair, and British aid worker Margaret Hassan, 59, has chestnut-coloured hair.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...1114190347&e=2

As I said God bless and keep kicking ass.

smooth

11-14-2004 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

I don't personally know roachboy, and maybe stepped out of line in speaking for him, but my impression is that any opinion based on rational thought processes would not be lumped into a pejorative category.

Your penchant for the most violent team in the NFL (which, BTW, was ruthlessly STOMPED by us a few weeks ago! muwahahahaahahah! :p) aside, you don't seem to want to engage in violent behavior yourself (like throwing weird shit on people, for example)--being morally opposed to it, and all.

Rdr4evr

11-14-2004 11:25 PM

A Bolt fan, eh? You have just declared yourself my enemy. ;)

smooth

11-14-2004 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

A Bolt fan, eh? You have just declared yourself my enemy. ;)

Actually, my wife is the fan :o

I can't relate to organized sports, but I can't resist a good ass-kicking (and since I'm a native, it's nice that my team is finally on the kicking side!), either. So she watches the games with my friends and fills me in on the "important details", hahah.

So here's a funny story:

I've been trying to find an older Padres cap to match a few shirts I have and I go down to Lids to find one today on the advice from one of my sports-nut friends. So I wander into the store and find my way over to the baseball section. This cute worker comes over and asks me what I need. I try to describe the colors I'm looking for when she stops me and explains that they are out of most of their Padres stock and won't get anymore for a while. Why not? It turns out it isn't baseball season anymore...hmm, who knew?! My wife speaks up over my shoulder, "he's into fashion more than sports."

hahaha. oh well, the good news is that I then had two hotties doing their damndest to find me a "suitable" alternative that wouldn't clash with my shirt :thumbsup:

similar situation while I decided to get a Bolt jersey--I relish irony, and the powder blue is stunning--as the girls were explaining which number I should or should not get. Evidently 21 is good.

Rdr4evr

11-15-2004 12:05 AM

We will have a re-match come Sunday and hopefully will return the favor, providing scary Kerry doesn't completely blow it with his trademark INT’s.

#21 is LaDainian Tomlinson, damn fine player, wouldn't mind having him on the silver and black. Bastard ran over us for 250 yards last season -sigh- and our defense hasn’t gotten any better since, although we held him under a 100 last game, hopefully we will shut him out this week as well. We need to put some pressure on Brees too the way he has been lighting up the scoreboard.

We shall see Sunday afternoon. We are both coming off bye weeks as well which should be interesting.

/threadjack

roachboy

11-15-2004 07:00 AM

for what it is worth, because i oppose the war in iraq i felt kinda embarrassed that some idiot would throw a fish (i know i know, but i like this version a little better) on seaver out of opposition to the war. it was a kind of curious apology.
it turns out that i left out a word:

the set of people who oppose the war is not equivalent to the set of fuckwits

Seer666

09-09-2005 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

"and Rdr4evr go fuck yourself"

Typical response I would expect from a miltary individual....I'm not surprised in the least.

::Shakes head:: Sad man, so very sad. You know, there is a word for all encompasing point of views like that. It's "bigot". While "and Rdr4evr go fuck yourself" may not be the most eligent way of putting it, it is very functional and efficent. Hum, you know it IS very military.

Seer666

09-09-2005 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

I can fault anyone for blindly following a command of their superior or boss. If I work at an accounting firm and my boss instructs me to cheat on a clients taxes, I would be at fault if I carried out that instruction. Soldiers have the ability to determine if they support the overall actions of the people at the top giving them commands. If a soldier feels it is immoral to continue the actions as outlined by those at the top, the soldier has a responsibility to disobey those orders.

Simply because they are in the military does not preclude them the ability or requirement to judge the actions of their country. They are not robots, even as much as they are trained to be. They remain human, and if they forsake their humanity for their country, they are at fault.

Personally, I find fault in killing innocent people for the political machinations of the President and the Defense Secretary. I find it inexcusable for a soldier to accept the killing of innocents (or even the guilty if there are other avenues towards defense) for those political machinations. Therefore, I find fault with the soldiers fighting this war. Do I consider them baby murderers? No. That's a loaded description. I'm certain they feel they are doing the right thing, even while I know they are not. Their intentions are admirable, even as their actions, on behalf of the President, are deplorable. They are simply misguided - in every sense of the word.

We don't "blindly" follow orders. We follow LEAGAL orders. there is a differnce. and I am with you 100% in killing innocent people. Which is why we go after the terrrorist fucktards who seem to think blowing up women and children is good fun. there have been civillian casuilties in this war, and it is a very sad thing. But do really think that our boys are trying to gun down civilians? No, everyt ime it happens that person has to live with it, and I know for a fact that it eats them up inside. But that is the risk of this type of war. As I said before, I don't think we really should have one over there in the first place, but now that we are, we have to make damn sure we win it. And I fail to see where trying to kill the bad guy before he kills you is "misguided".

Seer666

09-09-2005 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadwiz

So, would you be morally opposed to sending our military into a country to put an end to countless human rights violations? How about torture? How about genocide?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

That was not a simple yes or no question.

Um, yeah, that's a simple yes or no.

Anything else the follows yes or no might be a long drawn out debate, but that was a yes or no....

Seer666

09-09-2005 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

The information I read stated the soldiers felt their orders were wrong, and subsequently refused to abide by them, based on the fact that they didn't have enough/proper equipment.

Got a link to that one? If it's the one I'm thinking it was, they felt their orders were "wrong" because without the equipment they were demanding, the job COULD NOT be done. Basicly, it was one of them conversation that happnes every damn day in the miitary "Do this" "I need this to do it" "We don't have that" "Then it's not getting done" "Ok, we'll get you soe of this" "Ok, then I'll get it done". No moral issues here. just physical limitations.

Seaver

09-09-2005 05:53 PM

nevermind..

Seer666

09-13-2005 08:12 AM

Wow. Looking at this a few days later, I just want to say sorry for the spam/thread jack.This is why TFP and sleep deprivation are a bad thing...

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