A soldier describes Fallujah - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Email from Dave - Nov 3, 04

Dear Dad -

As you have no doubt been watching, we have had our hands full around Fallujah. It would seem as if the final reckoning is coming. The city has been on a consistent down hill spiral since we were ordered out in April. It's siren call for extremists and criminals has only increased steadily and the instability and violence that radiates out of the town has expanded exponentially. If there is another city in the world that contains more terrorists, I would be surprised. From the last two years, I just don't see a way that we can succeed in Iraq without reducing this threat. The cost of continuing on without taking decisive action is too high to dwell on.

The enemy inside the town have come to fight and kill Americans. Nothing will sate their bloodlust and hatred other than to kill everyone of us or at least die trying. It is hard to fathom as a Westerner as rational thought would dictate that we will only be here for a relatively short blip in their history and while we are here, billions of dollars in investments will pour in and opportunity that is beyond comprehension will open up for anyone willing to work. This is not Kansas and this enemy does not think like that.

If we build a school or clinic, they destroy it. They would rather deny medical care or education for the children of the citizens who live nearby than to have any symbol of the West in general and America specifically among them. It is hard to comprehend. Frankly, we are done trying.

For eight months, we have been on our chain. The enemy has fooled itself misinterpreting our humanity and restraint for lack of will and courage. For eight months, we have watched Marines, Soldiers and Sailors maimed and killed by invisible cowards hiding behind some wall or in a canal as he detonates another IED. For eight months, we have been witness to suicidal sociopaths driving vehicles laden with explosives into crowds of Iraqis and into our own convoys.

Just last week, we lost another nine Marines killed and an equal number of wounded as the result of some ignorant extremists who was able to convince himself that killing himself and as many Americans as possible would send him to paradise where he could finally get his virgins.

Now, their own ignorance and arrogance will be their undoing. They believe that they can hold Fallujah. In fact, they have come from all over to be part of its glorious defense. I cannot describe the atmosphere that exists in the Regiment right now. Of course the men are nervous but I think they are more nervous that we will not be allowed to clean the rats nest out and instead will be forced to continue operating as is.

Its as if a window of opportunity has opened and everyone just wants to get on with it before it closes. The Marines know the enemy has massed and has temporarily decided to stay and fight. For the first time, the men feel as though we may be allowed to do what needs to be done. If the enemy wants to sit in his citadel and try to defend it against the Marine Corps and some very hard Soldiers... then the men want to execute before the enemy sobers up and flees.

It may come off as an exceptionally bellicose perspective but where the Marines live and operate is a war zone in the starkest reality. When the Marines leave the front gate on an operation or patrol, someone within direct line of sight of that gate is trying to kill them. All have lost friends and watched as the enemy hides within his sanctuary that has been allowed out of what one must assume is political necessity. The enemy has been given every advantage by our sense of morality and restraint and by a set of operational rules that we are constrained to operate under. The Marines feel like their time has come and we will finally be ordered to do what must be done and be given the latitude to do it. Even though the price will be high, there is not a man here that would chose status quo over paying the price.

Every day, the enemy takes more hostages, assassinates developing Iraqi leaders and savagely beats suspected collaborators. I will give you just one recent example that happened last week. One of our patrols was moving down a street when they saw what looked like a fight. The Marines closed with the scene. It was a family that had come to Iraq on religious pilgrimage that was taken hostage and was being taken into Fallujah. The muj stopped for some reason and the father began fighting. The Marines interdicted and captured two of the kidnappers. Two more ran and the Marines could not get a shot without fear of killing/wounding others.

Every day, insurgents from inside Fallujah drive out and wait for Iraqis that work on our bases. Once the Iraqis leave they are stopped. The lucky ones are savagely beaten. The unfortunate ones are killed. A family that had fled Fallujah in order to get away from the fighting recently tried to return. When they got to their home, they found it taken over by terrorists (very common). When the patriarch showed the muj his deed in order to prove that the house was his, they took the old man out into the street and beat him senseless in front of his family.

Summary executions are common. Think about that. Summary executions inside Fallujah happen with sobering frequency. We have been witness to the scene on a number of occasions. Three men are taken from the trunk of a car and are made to walk to a ditch where they are shot. Bodies are found in the Euphrates without heads washed downstream from Fallujah. To date we have been allowed to do nothing.

I have no idea the numbers of beheadings that have occurred in Fallujah since I have been here. I have no idea the number of hostages that have ended up in Fallujah since we have been here. I just don't know that Americans would be able to comprehend the number anyway. Unfortunately, the situation has only gotten worse. There is no hope for any type of reasoned solution with an enemy like this.

Once again, we are being asked by citizens who have fled the city to go in and take the city back. They are willing for us to literally rubble the place in order to kill the terrorists within. Don't get me wrong, there are still many inside the town that support the terrorists and we cannot expect to be thanked publicly if we do take the city. There is a sense of de ja vu with the refugees telling us where their houses are and asking us to bomb them because the muj have taken them over. We heard the same thing in April only to end up letting the people down. Some no doubt have paid with their lives. The "good" people who may ultimately buy into a peaceful and prosperous Iraq are again asking us to do what we know must be done.

The Marines understand and are eager to get on with it. The only lingering fear in them is that we will be ordered to stop again. I don't know if this is going to happen but if it happens soon, I will write you when its over,

Love,

Dave

This my friends is why we are going into Fallujah, and this is why it would be horrible to fail. I have faith that our men are far better equipped and trained and will have little problem clearing the terrorists out, but undoubtedly some will die trying. Perhaps its part of some grand strategy getting most of the rats in one nest, or perhaps its just the accident of failed diplomacy. I wish him luck.

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 11:09 PM

Whilst I'm not doubting the veracity of this letter, a source would be nice. Just to meet the high standards you call for from others, you understand.

Mr Mephisto

hammer4all · 11-07-2004, 11:29 PM

I certainly hope Dave doesn't lose his life trying to secure Fallujah.

Here are some opinions of Iraqi youth before and after the invasion for those that care:

http://www.linktv.org/streams/bridgesBaghdad.php3

Rdr4evr · 11-07-2004, 11:44 PM

I'm just curious as to why you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist's whereas the US soldiers are good men and women? The question has come up before and most likely will come up again unanswered or answered one-sidedly.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say it was the Iraqis that invaded our country because they felt Bush needs to be taken out of power. If the Americans would retaliate and fight back because they felt that their country was wrongfully invaded, would that make them terrorist and the Iraqis good men and women?

I feel that there is a double standard in this situation and that the term "terrorist" is used too loosely. Surely the very few that behead contractors and whatnot can be considered terrorist's, but again, those are few and far in between. I believe most are fighting because they feel that their country as well as religion is not the business of the Americans to worry about, and rightfully so, they will fight for their beliefs. I do not believe that should qualify them as terrorists. I could very easily label the American soldiers as terrorists for the same reason you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist.

If you feel the need to classify a group of people as terrorists, at least do so fairly.

Sty · 11-07-2004, 11:55 PM

I think it might be from here:

http://www.thegreenside.com/

host · 11-08-2004, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This my friends is why we are going into Fallujah, and this is why it would be horrible to fail. I have faith that our men are far better equipped and trained and will have little problem clearing the terrorists out, but undoubtedly some will die trying. Perhaps its part of some grand strategy getting most of the rats in one nest, or perhaps its just the accident of failed diplomacy. I wish him luck.

<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp11042004.html">....."Here's what makes me sick: the last time, Americans voted for this Hakencreuz Hillbilly because he misrepresented what he was about. This time, they knew exactly what he was about, and they voted for him anyway."</a>

Quote:

<a href="http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041012-050845-4085r.htm">http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041012-050845-4085r.htm</a>
The Los Angeles Times reported Monday that the White House has decreed that no major ground battles be fought until after the Nov. 2 U.S. election, to avoid negative political repercussions a bloody battle may entail.

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Issue Date: September 27, 2004 <a href="http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-MARINEPAPER-356833.php">http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-MARINEPAPER-356833.php</a>

Corps’ top general in Iraq criticizes handling of Fallujah

By Christian Lowe
Times staff writer

Many who fought in Fallujah may have been thinking it, but weren’t willing to say it — that Marines did not want to launch the April siege there, and once in the fight, they didn’t want to pull out before the job was done.

In a candid interview Sept. 12 with four major newspapers at his command post in Iraq, Lt. Gen. James Conway said senior coalition commanders in Iraq ordered the Marines into Fallujah against his advice and counter to the Corps’ long-term plan to quell the city’s insurgency.

Moreover, before Marines could consolidate their gains, they were ordered out, replaced by an unproven local security force cobbled together without the input of senior Marines on the ground there, said Conway, the outgoing commander of I Marine Expeditionary Force.

His comments followed those of Brig. Gen. John Kelly, who was assistant 1st Marine Division commander under Conway. Now serving as the commandant’s legislative assistant, Kelly offered a similar analysis of Fallujah during a seminar held Sept. 7 near Washington, D.C.

“We were ordered to go into Fallujah against our inclination,” Kelly said at a joint U.S. Naval Institute and Marine Corps Association forum. “That was not what we wanted to do in Fallujah. We had a different game plan. A longer game plan.”

The force of 25,000 I MEF leathernecks had arrived in Iraq and assumed responsibility for Anbar province from Army forces less than a month before the Fallujah operation began. They arrived vowing to address the insurgency problem with a “hearts-and-minds” approach. Army forces had encountered tough resistance in the city throughout their occupation, so the Corps envisioned employing a less aggressive strategy, hoping it would garner better results.

But after four private security contractors were killed and their mutilated bodies were paraded in the city streets March 31, two reinforced Marine battalions were ordered in to assault the city.

“We felt like we had a method that we wanted to apply to Fallujah — that we ought to probably let the situation settle before we appeared to be attacking out of revenge,” Conway told The Washington Post.

More than a dozen Marines were killed and scores were wounded in the resulting clashes during the nearly monthlong siege.

In April, coalition military officials had vowed not to rush into a Fallujah attack, planning instead a patient, lasting approach to countering the insurgency there.

“We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city,” said Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, then a coalition military spokesman, at a press conference just days before the operation against Fallujah was launched. “It’s going to be deliberate, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming.

A Pentagon spokesman declined comment on the Marines’ remarks. “We don’t have anything to say on that,” Army Lt. Col. Barry Venable said Sept. 17.

Conway spoke to reporters after handing over command of I MEF to Lt. Gen. John Sattler, formerly commander of Combined Joint Task Force Horn of Africa and the 2nd Marine Division. Conway’s next assignment is as director of operations for the Joint Staff at the Pentagon.

Once ordered into the fight for Fallujah, Marine commanders wanted to finish the job, but the head of coalition forces in Iraq at the time, Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, ordered the Marines out and a hastily assembled “Fallujah Brigade” — made up of former Iraqi army commanders and local militia — into the city, according to published reports on Conway’s Sept. 12 comments.

At the time, Marines had little faith in the brigade and were left feeling bitter, believing that victory was snatched from their grasp.

“We were quite happy with the progress of the attack,” Conway said. “We thought we were going to be done in a few days.”

Conway hands his successor a Fallujah still teeming with terrorists and insurgents.

The city is one of only a few so-called “no-go zones” for American forces in Iraq. The Fallujah Brigade was disbanded in early September, leaving the city arguably worse off than it was before the April assault.

U.S. aircraft have pounded the city in recent weeks, including a Sept. 10 strike on an alleged safe house run by terrorists aligned with al-Qaida affiliate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Reports indicate that another full-scale assault on the town is imminent, a job now left to Sattler.

“Would our system have been better?” Conway asked. “You’ll never know for sure. But at the time, we certainly thought so.”

Dragonlich · 11-08-2004, 01:35 AM

host, I'd say it's another example of politicians trying to be generals. It happened in Vietnam, it happened here. Of course politicians *need* to control the military, but they shouldn't launch or stop an attack against the advice from the commanders in the field, *unless* the political situation absolutely demands it. I doubt this was the case during the first attack.

I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. This time will be much more bloody than the first attack, and the next one will be even worse.

ravenradiodj · 11-08-2004, 04:14 AM

Nice digs about Islam in the letter, too.

molloby · 11-08-2004, 05:41 AM

It's a guerrilla war for god's sake, that is how guerrillas are supposed to fight, hiding and killing from as safe a vantage point as possible.

I would be very suppressed if an assault on Fallujah achieves much, they have been telegraphing it for over a month. Any sane insurgent will know not to fight a stand up fight against a better armed and equipped enemy. Most of them have probably already left the city, with a few hard-core suicide squads left to bleed the Americans as much as possible. Nothing good will come of this, Americans, Iraqi civilians and suicidal extremists will die and more resentment will be created.

Dragonlich · 11-08-2004, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molloby

Most of them have probably already left the city, with a few hard-core suicide squads left to bleed the Americans as much as possible. Nothing good will come of this, Americans, Iraqi civilians and suicidal extremists will die and more resentment will be created.

If they already left the city, that's good. You see, after the remnants are defeated, the US and Iraqi forces will be in control of the city, and the insurgents will have one less place to hide in.

Lebell · 11-08-2004, 09:17 AM

It's about time.

Hoorah!

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-08-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

I'm just curious as to why you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist's whereas the US soldiers are good men and women? The question has come up before and most likely will come up again unanswered or answered one-sidedly.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say it was the Iraqis that invaded our country because they felt Bush needs to be taken out of power. If the Americans would retaliate and fight back because they felt that their country was wrongfully invaded, would that make them terrorist and the Iraqis good men and women?

I feel that there is a double standard in this situation and that the term "terrorist" is used too loosely. Surely the very few that behead contractors and whatnot can be considered terrorist's, but again, those are few and far in between. I believe most are fighting because they feel that their country as well as religion is not the business of the Americans to worry about, and rightfully so, they will fight for their beliefs. I do not believe that should qualify them as terrorists. I could very easily label the American soldiers as terrorists for the same reason you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist.

If you feel the need to classify a group of people as terrorists, at least do so fairly.

This is a crock of shit, sorry, but it's true.

Freedom fighters who love their country don't behead their fellow country men. Terrorists do that. Freedom fighters who love their country don't drive cars loaded down with expolsive into crowds of women and children, fellow citizens of Iraq.

In a more civilized society, if these "Freedom Fighters" were serious about helping better their country, they would work through peaceful means with people in their own country and the US forces.

It's also really disturbing the amoral tone in which this post was written with. You are basically justifying the action of sociopaths and the evil they spread.

Rdr4evr · 11-08-2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Freedom fighters who love their country don't behead their fellow country men. Terrorists do that. Freedom fighters who love their country don't drive cars loaded down with expolsive into crowds of women and children, fellow citizens of Iraq.

Well, either you COMPLETELY ignored my post, or responded without reading the whole thing. If you actually look at the post, you will understand that I already labeled the extremist doing the suicide bombings and beheadings as terrorists. Not EVERYONE in Iraq fighting the American forces take part in these terrorist activities though, it is a very small percentage.

Quote:

In a more civilized society, if these "Freedom Fighters" were serious about helping better their country, they would work through peaceful means with people in their own country and the US forces.

Oh I see, so the only way to not be labeled as a terrorist is to cooperate with the US forces? Once again, put yourself in their shoes, would you cooperate with the soldiers that killed your loved ones? I said I don’t want one-sided responses.

Quote:

It's also really disturbing the amoral tone in which this post was written with. You are basically justifying the action of sociopaths and the evil they spread.

It’s more disturbing that you label the murderous actions of the US soldiers (which are terrorists in the eyes of many around the world) justified, whereas the Iraqis are evil murderers. Oh no, the US soldiers are perfect humanitarians, none of them are crazed sociopaths, they are all sane individuals looking to help Iraq to a better future. Once again, don’t respond if you can’t be objective.

Dragonlich · 11-08-2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Well, either you COMPLETELY ignored my post, or responded without reading the whole thing. If you actually look at the post, you will understand that I already labeled the extremist doing the suicide bombings and beheadings as terrorists. Not EVERYONE in Iraq fighting the American forces take part in these terrorist activities though, it is a very small percentage.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? As far as I see it, the insurgents are either terrorists from neighboring countries, ex-Ba'athists trying to regain power, fundamentalist Muslims trying to start a revolution, or common criminals trying to make a quick buck. Sure, they're not *all* terrorists, but they all have their own agenda, and they're all trying to achieve their goals with violent means, no matter how many people, including civilians, die.

Quote:

Oh I see, so the only way to not be labeled as a terrorist is to cooperate with the US forces? Once again, put yourself in their shoes, would you cooperate with the soldiers that killed your loved ones? I said I don’t want one-sided responses.

That's not what he said. He (and I) feels that the best way to help Iraq is to cooperate with the new government, and the US forces. To do anything else will only bring suffering to the people of Iraq. But of course, if the US is your great Satan, it's hard to comprehend they might not be interested in taking over your shithole of a country.

Now, if I were to live in Iraq, I know what I'd do: after decades of death and destruction, I'd want a peaceful society. That means I would NOT attack anyone suspected of cooperating with the "enemy", if that enemy is trying to rebuild my friggin' country. Furthermore, if my loved ones were killed by US soldiers, I'd be pretty damn angry; but I would be equally angry if my loved ones were murdered by Iraqi "freedom fighters"... angry enough to want to join the new Iraqi army and crush the terrorists!

So, how's that for a one-sided response?

Quote:

It’s more disturbing that you label the murderous actions of the US soldiers (which are terrorists in the eyes of many around the world) justified, whereas the Iraqis are evil murderers. Oh no, the US soldiers are perfect humanitarians, none of them are crazed sociopaths, they are all sane individuals looking to help Iraq to a better future. Once again, don’t respond if you can’t be objective.

There's a difference between what many around the world think and the real world. Nobody ever said US soldiers were perfect, so you can stop pretending anyone did. However, the majority of US soldiers are ultimately fighting to rebuild Iraq and create a safe and peaceful country. The terrorists/insurgents seem only able to destroy things and kill people, all in the name of their respective cause. I know who I support; do you?

Rdr4evr · 11-08-2004, 11:02 AM

Oh no, you are not one-sided in the least, that "shithole of a country" is filled with idiot terrorist who can't comprehend that the US are not trying to take over their country. Whenever you try to shove "democracy" down the throat of another country that obviously does not want the so called "help", you back off and mind your own and deal with all the problems in your own country. Maybe starting with the blind racism and hatred.

Quote:

I know who I support; do you?

Yes, I support those who feel murder is not necessary to achieve peace.

powerclown · 11-08-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

It's about time.

Hoorah!

A little late is better than never, I guess. If anyone can do the job, the U.S. Marines (with Iraqi Forces alongside them) can.

Thanks, Ustwo for the letter. Always good to hear from the 'Boots on the Ground'.
I'm of the opinion that the Coalition Forces aren't the Bad Guys, here, as well.

Bookman · 11-08-2004, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Oh no, you are not one-sided in the least, that "shithole of a country" is filled with idiot terrorist who can't comprehend that the US are not trying to take over their country. Whenever you try to shove "democracy" down the throat of another country that obviously does not want the so called "help", you back off and mind your own and deal with all the problems in your own country. Maybe starting with the blind racism and hatred.

Yes, I support those who feel murder is not necessary to achieve peace.

Very well said.

Who the hell do we think we are (our leaders)? Either call our efforts and offensives Imperialistic or back the hell down and get in line with the rest of the world.

Bodyhammer86 · 11-08-2004, 11:31 AM

Actually, we're not taking over their country. The sooner the Iraqi people stop fighting and take part in setting up their new government, the sooner they will not need our help, and the sooner we will be gone.

powerclown · 11-08-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookman

Very well said.

Who the hell do we think we are (our leaders)? Either call our efforts and offensives Imperialistic or back the hell down and get in line with the rest of the world.

Too simplistic of a view in my opinion. If America wasn't the current World Superpower, than somebody else would be. And the ones with all the Power might not be as benevolent to the rest of the world as America tries to be. Imagine for a second the Nazis as the World Superpower, or the religious fanatics of Iran as the World Superpower, or the Taliban as the World Superpower, or Al Qaeda as the World Superpower.

Imagine what kind of world that would be, if you can.

Bookman · 11-08-2004, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Too simplistic of a view in my opinion. If America wasn't the current World Superpower, than somebody else would be. And the ones with all the Power might not be as benevolent to the rest of the world as America tries to be. Imagine for a second the Nazis as the World Superpower, or the religious fanatics of Iran as the World Superpower, or the Taliban as the World Superpower, or Al Qaeda as the World Superpower.

Imagine what kind of world that would be, if you can.

There is a clear difference between being the super-power and being the Ruler-of-the-World.

djtestudo · 11-08-2004, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyhammer86

Actually, we're not taking over their country. The sooner the Iraqi people stop fighting and take part in setting up their new government, the sooner they will not need our help, and the sooner we will be gone.

Dingdingding...we have a winner.

molloby · 11-08-2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonlich

If they already left the city, that's good. You see, after the remnants are defeated, the US and Iraqi forces will be in control of the city, and the insurgents will have one less place to hide in.

The problem with that is that the insurgents will simply come back once the heat is back. There is no real way that the coalition forces can control the city, they simply cannot stop the insurgents moving at will.

powerclown · 11-08-2004, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookman

There is a clear difference between being the super-power and being the Ruler-of-the-World.

And that difference would be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by molloby

The problem with that is that the insurgents will simply come back once the heat is back. There is no real way that the coalition forces can control the city, they simply cannot stop the insurgents moving at will.

The Coalition Forces won't have to stop the insurgents coming back. The new and legitimate Iraqi authorities stationed in Fallujah, under the command of the Iraqi Government, will be responsible for security in the city.

Sargeman · 11-08-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

I'm just curious as to why you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist's whereas the US soldiers are good men and women? The question has come up before and most likely will come up again unanswered or answered one-sidedly.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say it was the Iraqis that invaded our country because they felt Bush needs to be taken out of power. If the Americans would retaliate and fight back because they felt that their country was wrongfully invaded, would that make them terrorist and the Iraqis good men and women?

I feel that there is a double standard in this situation and that the term "terrorist" is used too loosely. Surely the very few that behead contractors and whatnot can be considered terrorist's, but again, those are few and far in between. I believe most are fighting because they feel that their country as well as religion is not the business of the Americans to worry about, and rightfully so, they will fight for their beliefs. I do not believe that should qualify them as terrorists. I could very easily label the American soldiers as terrorists for the same reason you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist.

I would agree with you if it was shown that it was the Iraqi's that were doing the freedom fighting. But if I'm not mistaken, most of the insurgents caught or killed are foreigners, other than Iraqis? Al-Zarqawi is Jordanian or Lebanese isn't he?

Mephisto2 · 11-08-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeman

I would agree with you if it was shown that it was the Iraqi's that were doing the freedom fighting. But if I'm not mistaken, most of the insurgents caught or killed are foreigners, other than Iraqis? Al-Zarqawi is Jordanian or Lebanese isn't he?

I'm curious as to where these figures come from.

I'm not disputing them, but I do doubt statements without references.

Certainly, beyond doubt, there are lots of foreigners fighting in Iraq (and I'm not talking about Americans or Poles).
Also certain, beyond doubt, is that there are lots of Iraqis fighting in Iraq.

Common sense and statistical probability would imply that the majority of the "fighters" are therefore Iraqi.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 11-08-2004, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Also certain, beyond doubt, is that there are lots of Iraqis fighting in Iraq.

Agreed, and most are on our side. We arn't training their army cause its fun.

flstf · 11-08-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This my friends is why we are going into Fallujah, and this is why it would be horrible to fail. I have faith that our men are far better equipped and trained and will have little problem clearing the terrorists out, but undoubtedly some will die trying. Perhaps its part of some grand strategy getting most of the rats in one nest, or perhaps its just the accident of failed diplomacy. I wish him luck.

Thanks for posting this letter. I hope our men and women in Iraq know that the majority of us back in the states support them and wish them well. Hopefully after they free Fallujah from the terrorists Iraq will be closer to being able to maintain their own peace hastening our soldiers return.

martinguerre · 11-08-2004, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This my friends is why we are going into Fallujah, and this is why it would be horrible to fail. I have faith that our men are far better equipped and trained and will have little problem clearing the terrorists out, but undoubtedly some will die trying. Perhaps its part of some grand strategy getting most of the rats in one nest, or perhaps its just the accident of failed diplomacy. I wish him luck.

They'll welcome us as liberators, right?

Send in those Marines, and try to restore peace to the city...and i pray for our soliders and the civilians of the town. But that we're in this situation in the first place is testament to the powers of f$ck uppery that the Bushies have. Who would have thought that occupying Iraq could have been a dangerous thing to attempt?

daswig · 11-08-2004, 07:58 PM

We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada.

Ustwo · 11-08-2004, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada.

Whats the explosive power a whole enchilada?

martinguerre · 11-08-2004, 08:44 PM

and by biblical scale you mean:

Matthew 5:44

“But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..”

Luke 6:29

“If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.”

If that indeed is what you were talking about, yes, i'd support such Biblical solution.

If, on the otherhand, you were talking about killing the entire town, you're not the first one to propose that solution. I can't remember who said it, but it was in a German accent.

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-08-2004, 09:00 PM

Pacifism is a disease... Jesus came here for spiritual salvation, whereas the rest of us are only consciously bound to the here and now.

Two in the chest and one in the head, please.

martinguerre · 11-08-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Pacifism is a disease... Jesus came here for spiritual salvation, whereas the rest of us are only consciously bound to the here and now.

Two in the chest and one in the head, please.

Indeed, it is far better to follow prophets grounded in the here and now, able to embrace the difficult decisions that need to be made for national security.

Gosh, there are just days when you miss "Iron Joe" Stalin, or Pol Pot. *They* would know how to destroy a villiage to save it. Genocide is really the practical answer to this Iraqi question.

Mephisto2 · 11-08-2004, 09:22 PM

Martinguerre,

don't rise to this kind of trollbait.

Either posts such as those above are breathtakingly naive and/or stupid, or the posters are just trying to provoke reasonable minded people.

Eitherway, it's best to ignore them. Sometimes they go away.

Mr Mephisto

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-08-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

Indeed, it is far better to follow prophets grounded in the here and now, able to embrace the difficult decisions that need to be made for national security.

Gosh, there are just days when you miss "Iron Joe" Stalin, or Pol Pot. *They* would know how to destroy a villiage to save it. Genocide is really the practical answer to this Iraqi question.

It's easy to promote idealism and peace, but that is what is Naive.

Their is a cold hard reality out there, we are at war with a real enemy.

Whose more irrational, me for thinking their is no decent way of dealing with this, or you for thinking there is?

And who is preaching Genocide?

SLM3 · 11-08-2004, 09:39 PM

It's just so easy, isn't it? Keep bombing the "terrorists" and have an election. Voila! Democracy!

It just amazes me the lack of serious study and thought that goes into the opinions of the ones with the big guns. Trust me, it is Iraqis fighting over there. I know Iraqis that have been back since the war started and they all tell me the anger with which their neighbours are fighting. They fought the British and they'll fight the Americans.

Does anyone want to actually look at the socio-political history of Iraq in order to see why this mess was so easily predicted? Do you understand why it is IMPOSSIBLE to impose democracy in Iraq right now (or for the next several decades or so as well)? Where were the institutions? The constitutional liberalism? It's a joke to think this experiment will result in a free, democratic Iraq. But really, when did anyone of any influence care about a free, democratic Iraq?

Rdr4evr · 11-08-2004, 09:53 PM

Some of you who have such a strong hatred and anger sure do talk a big game behind your computer. If you are so passionate about murdering Iraqis or leveling their country, why don't you walk the walk? It's easy to sit at the computer and spew random hatred and non-sense, but if you truly feel the way you feel, get off your ass and go kill the Iraqis you seem to hate so strongly. Enlist in the "honorable" military and join the rest of the killers.

Bodyhammer86 · 11-08-2004, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Some of you who have such a strong hatred and anger sure do talk a big game behind your computer. If you are so passionate about murdering Iraqis or leveling their country, why don't you walk the walk? It's easy to sit at the computer and spew random hatred and non-sense, but if you truly feel the way you feel, get off your ass and go kill the Iraqis you seem to hate so strongly. Enlist in the "honorable" military and join the rest of the killers.

If you can't figure it out by now, Daswig and Ustwo were being sarcastic with the "leveling it to the ground" comments. Jesus Christ, mellow the fuck out.

Ustwo · 11-08-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyhammer86

If you can't figure it out by now, Daswig and Ustwo were being sarcastic with the "leveling it to the ground" comments. Jesus Christ, mellow the fuck out.

I'm not sure about Daswig

matthew330 · 11-08-2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Some of you who have such a strong hatred and anger sure do talk a big game behind your computer. If you are so passionate about murdering Iraqis or leveling their country, why don't you walk the walk? It's easy to sit at the computer and spew random hatred and non-sense, but if you truly feel the way you feel, get off your ass and go kill the Iraqis you seem to hate so strongly. Enlist in the "honorable" military and join the rest of the killers.

..i'm slowly becoming convinced that "The United States of Canada" is the best idea democrats have ever come up with. Someone has totally lost it....

11-07-2004, 11:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
Sty Patron Administrator Location: Tôkyô, Japan	I think it might be from here: http://www.thegreenside.com/ __________________ br, Sty I route, therefore you exist

11-08-2004, 09:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	It's about time. Hoorah! __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-08-2004, 11:31 AM	#18 (permalink)
Bodyhammer86 Insane Location: Mattoon, Il	Actually, we're not taking over their country. The sooner the Iraqi people stop fighting and take part in setting up their new government, the sooner they will not need our help, and the sooner we will be gone. __________________ Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

11-08-2004, 08:44 PM	#31 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	and by biblical scale you mean: Matthew 5:44 “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..” Luke 6:29 “If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.” If that indeed is what you were talking about, yes, i'd support such Biblical solution. If, on the otherhand, you were talking about killing the entire town, you're not the first one to propose that solution. I can't remember who said it, but it was in a German accent. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

11-08-2004, 09:00 PM	#32 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Pacifism is a disease... Jesus came here for spiritual salvation, whereas the rest of us are only consciously bound to the here and now. Two in the chest and one in the head, please. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-07-2004, 11:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Whilst I'm not doubting the veracity of this letter, a source would be nice. Just to meet the high standards you call for from others, you understand. Mr Mephisto

11-07-2004, 11:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
hammer4all Insane	I certainly hope Dave doesn't lose his life trying to secure Fallujah. Here are some opinions of Iraqi youth before and after the invasion for those that care: http://www.linktv.org/streams/bridgesBaghdad.php3

11-07-2004, 11:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	I'm just curious as to why you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist's whereas the US soldiers are good men and women? The question has come up before and most likely will come up again unanswered or answered one-sidedly. Hypothetically speaking, lets say it was the Iraqis that invaded our country because they felt Bush needs to be taken out of power. If the Americans would retaliate and fight back because they felt that their country was wrongfully invaded, would that make them terrorist and the Iraqis good men and women? I feel that there is a double standard in this situation and that the term "terrorist" is used too loosely. Surely the very few that behead contractors and whatnot can be considered terrorist's, but again, those are few and far in between. I believe most are fighting because they feel that their country as well as religion is not the business of the Americans to worry about, and rightfully so, they will fight for their beliefs. I do not believe that should qualify them as terrorists. I could very easily label the American soldiers as terrorists for the same reason you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist. If you feel the need to classify a group of people as terrorists, at least do so fairly.

11-08-2004, 01:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	host, I'd say it's another example of politicians trying to be generals. It happened in Vietnam, it happened here. Of course politicians need to control the military, but they shouldn't launch or stop an attack against the advice from the commanders in the field, unless the political situation absolutely demands it. I doubt this was the case during the first attack. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. This time will be much more bloody than the first attack, and the next one will be even worse.

11-08-2004, 04:14 AM	#8 (permalink)
ravenradiodj Crazy	Nice digs about Islam in the letter, too.

11-08-2004, 05:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
molloby Tilted Location: Sydney, Australia	It's a guerrilla war for god's sake, that is how guerrillas are supposed to fight, hiding and killing from as safe a vantage point as possible. I would be very suppressed if an assault on Fallujah achieves much, they have been telegraphing it for over a month. Any sane insurgent will know not to fight a stand up fight against a better armed and equipped enemy. Most of them have probably already left the city, with a few hard-core suicide squads left to bleed the Americans as much as possible. Nothing good will come of this, Americans, Iraqi civilians and suicidal extremists will die and more resentment will be created.

11-08-2004, 07:58 PM	#29 (permalink)
daswig Banned Location: BFE	We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada.

11-08-2004, 09:22 PM	#34 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Martinguerre, don't rise to this kind of trollbait. Either posts such as those above are breathtakingly naive and/or stupid, or the posters are just trying to provoke reasonable minded people. Eitherway, it's best to ignore them. Sometimes they go away. Mr Mephisto

11-08-2004, 09:39 PM	#36 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	It's just so easy, isn't it? Keep bombing the "terrorists" and have an election. Voila! Democracy! It just amazes me the lack of serious study and thought that goes into the opinions of the ones with the big guns. Trust me, it is Iraqis fighting over there. I know Iraqis that have been back since the war started and they all tell me the anger with which their neighbours are fighting. They fought the British and they'll fight the Americans. Does anyone want to actually look at the socio-political history of Iraq in order to see why this mess was so easily predicted? Do you understand why it is IMPOSSIBLE to impose democracy in Iraq right now (or for the next several decades or so as well)? Where were the institutions? The constitutional liberalism? It's a joke to think this experiment will result in a free, democratic Iraq. But really, when did anyone of any influence care about a free, democratic Iraq?

11-08-2004, 09:53 PM	#37 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Some of you who have such a strong hatred and anger sure do talk a big game behind your computer. If you are so passionate about murdering Iraqis or leveling their country, why don't you walk the walk? It's easy to sit at the computer and spew random hatred and non-sense, but if you truly feel the way you feel, get off your ass and go kill the Iraqis you seem to hate so strongly. Enlist in the "honorable" military and join the rest of the killers.