Ground assault on Faluja commences - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

US ground forces drive into Fallujah
November 8, 2004 - 12:04PM

US forces have stormed into western districts of Fallujah, seizing the main city hospital and securing two key bridges over the Euphrates River in what appeared to be the first stage of the long-expected assault on the insurgent stronghold.

An AC-130 gunship raked the city with 40mm cannon fire as explosions from US artillery lit up the night sky. Intermittent artillery fire blasted southern neighbourhoods of Fallujah, and orange fireballs from high explosive airbursts could be seen above the rooftops.

US officials said the toughest fight was yet to come - when American forces enter the main part of the city on the east bank of the river, including the Jolan neighbourhood where insurgent defences are believed the strongest.

The initial attacks on Fallujah began just hours after the Iraqi government declared 60 days of emergency rule throughout most of the country yesterday as militants dramatically escalated attacks, killing at least 30 people, including two Americans.

In Fallujah, Dr Salih al-Issawi, the head of the city's main hospital, said he had asked US officers to allow doctors and ambulances to go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded but they refused. There was no confirmation from the Americans.

"The American troops takeover of the hospital was not right because they thought that they would halt medical assistance to the resistance," he said by telephone to a reporter inside the city.

"But they did not realise that the hospital does not belong to anybody, especially the resistance."

AFP journalists embedded with the military said silver flashes lit up the skies over Fallujah in the latest aerial bombardment.

At least eight people were wounded in the strikes, according to medical sources.

"We have admitted eight wounded in our establishment,'' said one Fallujah doctor, who asked his name not be used. He added they had appealed for foreign aid as they had insufficient resources to handle the wounded.

The eastern and western outskirts of the city came under intense fire from 8pm yesterday to 1am today (0400-0900 AEST today), AFP journalists said.

North-west of the city in the town of Karma, US artillery batteries shelled suspected insurgent positions with support from tanks and helicopters, an AFP photographer said.

AP/Reuters/AFP

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Sad...81272661.html#

And from earlier today...

Quote:

Mission Falluja: the final assault
November 8, 2004

Thousands of US troops were poised last night to storm the insurgent-held city of Falluja as UN chiefs and rebels scrambled to cut a peace deal amid fears innocents would be slaughtered.

More than 10,000 US Marines were camped on the outskirts of the city ready for the order to attack the estimated 1200 militant followers of the terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein.

In an effort to soften the rebels, the US pounded the city at the weekend with some the heaviest air and mortar attacks Iraq has seen in six months. However, the strikes destroyed a hospital and a medical warehouse and killed at least two people and wounded several more.

The UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan, has warned coalition leaders that an assault on Falluja "would be very disruptive of Iraq's political transition".

Most of the city's 300,000 inhabitants have already fled, and after the weekend barrage, many more streamed out. No one knows how many civilians are still in the city, but it is believed that those left are either diehard supporters of the insurgents or too old or sick to leave.

Many of the marines circling Falluja have no major combat experience and commanders are pinning their hopes on training and superior firepower.

"About 95 per cent of my men have no major combat experience and many have none at all," said Sergeant Michael Edwards, a tank company master gunner.

CNN reported on Saturday that an Iraqi military commander deserted US forces hours after he received a full briefing on the attack plans but US commanders said the strike would go ahead.

Experts have warned that militants are spilling out of the city, past coalition troops and into an area near Baghdad known as "the triangle of death".

Eight-hundred and fifty British Black Watch soldiers have moved into the area to free up US troops for the assault. The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend.

Insurgents stepped up their assaults on coalition forces on Saturday with attacks in Baghdad, the rebel-held city of Ramadi and Samarra, where they killed about 37 people.

Yesterday rebels executed 21 policemen in Haditha, a small town just outside Falluja, in an armed raid on a police station.

Police also bore the brunt of the rebels' wrath in Samarra, with insurgents attacking four police stations, one of which was rammed by a suicide car bomber. Three other car bombs were also set off in the city. Police said the onslaught killed 34 people - 19 police officers, four security officers and 11 civilians - and wounded 43 people.

In a bid to avert the Falluja assault, a number of Sunni Muslim leaders have drafted a plan to reinstate law and order in Falluja peacefully and reduce insurgency in Iraq.

The leaders, who have been enthusiastic backers of violent resistance in Iraq since the US-led invasion 18 months ago, said they would withdraw their support for violence if Iraq's interim government reassured them that Sunnis would be represented in the national elections in January.

They also want US forces to remain confined to bases in the month before voting.

They have hinted the plan may be open to negotiation. The US embassy in Baghdad offered no reaction to the proposal, but US and Iraqi officials indicated it was unlikely to avert the assault on Falluja.

Coalition leaders have angrily dismissed Mr Annan's warning, which was contained in private letters sent to them last week. Iraq's interim Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, said the comments were confused and unclear.

Support for the insurgents inside Falluja has remained strong but many former residents have accused them of ruling the city through fear.

"Roughly a quarter to a third of the people in Falluja support the [Iraqi] Government, but they're afraid to say anything," said a Western diplomat who refused to be named.

Reuters, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Sad...781250203.html

I've highlighted portions I think are noteworthy.

I guess the desertion of an Iraqi who has first-hand knowledge of the assault plans is not a good thing.

Hopefully it won't turn out to be a massacre; either of civilians or US/Iraqi forces.

And now my own, non-partisan, question.

How on Earth can this battle be won? I don't want a political answer. I'm just at a loss as to how this kind of resistance can be overcome without wholesale death and destruction being inflicted upon the Iraqi people. And even then, that's not a real victory.

What do you think about the suggested compromise that would allow the Sunni's carefully guaranteed freedom to contest the poll in January? Would the US allow that and, if not, why not? Fear of another Iran? But if it was democratic, would that not be hypocracy?

Mr Mephisto

Manx · 11-07-2004, 06:22 PM

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this:

Quote:

"About 95 per cent of my men have no major combat experience and many have none at all," said Sergeant Michael Edwards, a tank company master gunner.

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this:

How much combat experiance do you think our guys had when the war started?

They did pretty good.

Manx · 11-07-2004, 06:37 PM

But now a lot of our guys have combat experience.

I spoke with a guy who returned from Iraq and he wanted to go back. His wife wouldn't let him. He told me they've been pulling out all the experience and replacing it with fresh off the boat. He was pissed.

If a lack of combat experience somehow equates to a greater ability to achieve objectives, then maybe I'm wrong.

powerclown · 11-07-2004, 06:43 PM

This is going to be absolutely fascinating, and I hope it is covered as much as humanly possible. The application of state-of-the-art intelligence and technology in an extremely volatile, difficult and dangerous urban military application. Marine Commanders have had months to plan this; it will be most interesting to see how things now actually unfold on the battlefield. This Fallujah campaign will no doubt serve as a prototype (win or lose) for modern urban warfare for years to come.

As far as taking the hospital first, I understand it is "so that workers there could attend to casualties without facing intimidation by insurgents, and to end its use as a source of anti-U.S. propaganda, as well as prevent insurgent medical care" under the assertion that "...In the past, hospital officials had said U.S. airstrikes killed only innocent civilians, a claim that the U.S. military disputed." Makes sense.

Quote:

Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent, the top enlisted Marine in Iraq, told troops the coming battle of Fallujah would be "no different" than the historic fights at Inchon in Korea, the flag-raising victory at Iwo Jima, or the bloody assault to dislodge North Vietnamese from the ancient citadel of Hue they seized in the 1968 Tet Offensive.

"You're all in the process of making history," Kent told a crowd of some 2,500 Marines. "This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt, if we do get the word, that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done - kick some butt."

"We're going to start at one end of the city, and we're not going to stop until we get to the other," said Lt. Col. Pete Newell, a battalion commander from the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division. "If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."

VitaminH · 11-07-2004, 07:18 PM

Well it's been building for awhile, guess it was bound to happen sometime. My video game warped mind doesn't see a way to take the city without first leveling it, but I'm no general, unless of course they have Tommy Vercetti, he seems pretty good at single handedly taking over a city

In all seriousness though, it makes me sad to know a lot more people may die before this is over.

seretogis · 11-07-2004, 07:25 PM

I'm not one to pray, but I wish our men and women in the armed forces luck and success in Fellujah.

MikeyChalupa · 11-07-2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

...

Experts have warned that militants are spilling out of the city, past coalition troops and into an area near Baghdad known as "the triangle of death".

Eight-hundred and fifty British Black Watch soldiers have moved into the area to free up US troops for the assault. The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend.

Insurgents stepped up their assaults on coalition forces on Saturday with attacks in Baghdad, the rebel-held city of Ramadi and Samarra, where they killed about 37 people.

Yesterday rebels executed 21 policemen in Haditha, a small town just outside Falluja, in an armed raid on a police station.

Police also bore the brunt of the rebels' wrath in Samarra, with insurgents attacking four police stations, one of which was rammed by a suicide car bomber. Three other car bombs were also set off in the city. Police said the onslaught killed 34 people - 19 police officers, four security officers and 11 civilians - and wounded 43 people.

...

No highlights here? Why?

These are murderers, fanatical zealots who kill innocents every day. Now it's time to put down the insurgency. Best of luck to my brothers and sisters on the ground, hopefully their stories of heroism in combat won't get buried behind the partisan garbage this war generates daily.

-Mikey

fuzyfuzer · 11-07-2004, 07:49 PM

this had to happen sooner rather than later because we wnat a stable i raq as soon as posible. without that stability our economy is suffering this war was about oil and that is what our economy is based on. you have to give one to your side to be president and thats what bush did hopefully we can start to take some real control there.

MSD · 11-07-2004, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

I'm not one to pray, but I wish our men and women in the armed forces luck and success in Fellujah.

That's about all I can say. I don't think there's anything else I can do or say.

Mobo123 · 11-07-2004, 08:21 PM

You didnt expect bush or whoever really runs this country to do this BEFORE the election, did you?

roachboy · 11-07-2004, 08:26 PM

this is clearly a post-election move.
i am not optimistic about how this will play out since it looks like a general retaliatory move rather than a precision one.
i do not watch this with any fascination.
i hope for minimal deaths all the way around.

j8ear · 11-07-2004, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

this is clearly a post-election move.
i am not optimistic about how this will play out since it looks like a general retaliatory move rather than a precision one.
i do not watch this with any fascination.
i hope for minimal deaths all the way around.

Definately a post election move, I agree. It seems like the decisions of a wise and rational commander-in-chief, all things considered. (not that Bush is that, just that the decision to wait till after the election is sound).

I don't follow what you mean by "general retaliatory move rather then a precision one." Both can easily co-exist and one doesn't negate or even require the other?

I also hope for minimal deaths, but realistically understand that minimal is more likely for the US and massive is probably what's in store for the insurgency.

-bear

btw Roachboy...fwiw, I've been meaning to compliment you as your wriiting style, vocabulary, and passion in your posts is extremely captivating. I rarely agree with your position, but certainly read your opinions with interest. You're a diamond in the rough!

irateplatypus · 11-07-2004, 09:48 PM

wow... sounds like we're gearing up again.

as always, i pray for my brothers and sisters in arms and their families who wonder if they'll see them again.

the new iraqi soldiers are also on my mind. they're in the difficult position of laying siege to a city in their own country. it must be hard for them to stay steadfast and resolute... yet the stability of the country and it's future are on their shoulders. i pray that they have the courage to win decisively and maintain the discipline necessary to avoiding more divisions w/their fellow iraqi countrymen down the road.

martinguerre · 11-07-2004, 10:06 PM

the loss of iraqi lives is simply staggering. i simply cannot see an end to the bloodshed...and perhaps that is a sin of inactive imagination, but i fear what we have unleashed is a genocide.

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeyChalupa

No highlights here? Why?

These are murderers, fanatical zealots who kill innocents every day. Now it's time to put down the insurgency. Best of luck to my brothers and sisters on the ground, hopefully their stories of heroism in combat won't get buried behind the partisan garbage this war generates daily.

-Mikey

No highlights there because I didn't highlight them.

Are you trying to imply I was biased in my opinion of what was noteworthy? Do we really have to go down this route again?

SIGH

Mr Mephisto

Locobot · 11-07-2004, 10:11 PM

Richard Clarke predicted this offensive months ago on the Daily Show, turns out he was right. Of course that also means that any Iraqi insurgent has seen this coming for months as well. Obviously the insurgents will flee or hide during this offensive and strike again once the pressure is off "The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend." duh ever heard of guerilla warfare? Apparently our generals have not.

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locobot

Richard Clarke predicted this offensive months ago on the Daily Show, turns out he was right. Of course that also means that any Iraqi insurgent has seen this coming for months as well. Obviously the insurgents will flee or hide during this offensive and strike again once the pressure is off "The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend." duh ever heard of guerilla warfare? Apparently our generals have not.

Since there were negotiations for months, this doesn't take a great brain to figure out.

I'll trust the generals more than you.

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 11:11 PM

Taking a city that is defended, house by house, is nigh near impossible.

Just ask the Israelis.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Taking a city that is defended, house by house, is nigh near impossible.

Just ask the Israelis.

Mr Mephisto

Wanna bet?

KirStang · 11-07-2004, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Wanna bet?

I think Mr. Mephisto has a good point. I'll admit that i don't know too much about military engagements, but take a look at Somalia and Stalingrad, both were as tough as nails to conquer.

guy44 · 11-07-2004, 11:25 PM

Ustwo, this is not a war nor a battle fought by the generals (not that I have infinite faith in them, either). This is a war created and fought by Bush and his neocons. Generals were ridiculed when they asked for more troops; soon enough, the Bushies were pushing a backdoor draft to supply them with enough men. The attack on Fallujah could have taken place over a long period of time. It waited until now because Bush put what he felt was the best plan of attack in Iraq on hold until after the election for no reason other than to futher his personal desire to be reelected.

Not that I think that the attack on Fallujah is good policy (it is quite the opposite), but Bush did. And he held off until it would help his reelection chances the most. In the mean time, soldiers and civilians were dying in droves every day.

What a guy, that Bush.

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Wanna bet?

Yes. Yes I do.

I also suggest you ask the Russians and the inhabitants of Grozny.

Of course, it all depends upon your definition of "victory". If you believe whole-sale destruction, high casualties for Allied troops, unknown but doubtlessly very high civilian casualties and a complete PR disaster are acceptable in your idea of victory, then you may continue to disagree.

But of course, if you believe that, why not simply carpet bomb the entire city?

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Of course, it all depends upon your definition of "victory". If you believe whole-sale destruction, high casualties for Allied troops, unknown but doubtlessly very high civilian casualties and a complete PR disaster are acceptable in your idea of victory, then you may continue to disagree.

Don't worry, no matter what the outcome the press will do their best to make it a complete PR disaster.

Mephisto2 · 11-08-2004, 01:52 AM

Hah... Well, I guess that's a fair comment.

But isn't the press in a fair and open society meant to criticize the government and/or expose and report topics of interest? That's what we were always told when growing up. Another reason why Fox News is both lauded and laughed at (depening upon where you stand on the issue of independent media), as it so obviously does not follow an independent line.

Mr Mephisto

Bodyhammer86 · 11-08-2004, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Another reason why Fox News is both lauded and laughed at (depening upon where you stand on the issue of independent media), as it so obviously does not follow an independent line.

Please, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, C-Span, or USA Today aren't exactly what I'd consider "indepedent" media either.

Stompy · 11-08-2004, 08:20 AM

I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but why is this battle so important (more so than any other in the past?)

So we win the battle in this next round of heavy advancement, then what? I know it's an enemy stronghold (or as some like to call it "terrorist" stronghold), but aside from that.. what's the big deal here?

Is taking this city supposed to suppress most of the random attacks over the country or something?

powerclown · 11-08-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but why is this battle so important (more so than any other in the past?)

So we win the battle in this next round of heavy advancement, then what? I know it's an enemy stronghold (or as some like to call it "terrorist" stronghold), but aside from that.. what's the big deal here?

Is taking this city supposed to suppress most of the random attacks over the country or something?

Fallujah is the ideological, spiritual, financial, strategic and physical center of the insurgency in Iraq. The city itself is run by insurgents, meaning it is out of the control of Prime Minister Allawi and the Interim Govt. The theory is that, when Fallujah (and a few other cities overrun by insurgents) goes, so goes the insurgency, so goes the intimidation/killing of potential voters. And with the insurgency gone (or diminished), elections in January will be more of a possibility.

roachboy · 11-08-2004, 09:48 AM

powerclown:
i wonder whether what you say in no. 28 reflects the same kind of wishful thinking that you saw in the algerian war and again in vietnam: what the adversary is, at some level, centralized, that it has a command structure that is symmetrical with that of the national army, that it has a head that can be cut off. do you think that this characterization is accurate with reference to american strategy here?
do you think that strategy sits on an accurate assessment of the opposition in iraq?

i am not an expert on military strategy, but it does not seem accurate, given the diffuse character of the insurgency, physically, tactically, in iraq.

it is because i am skeptical about this that i wonder whether the attack is a general response (this is what happens if you fuck with us) rather than t specific one (this operation will incapacitate a particular insrugent organization or series of them)--i cann see this going either way. if the former, i expect the actual battle will be about brutality because it is the brutality itself that is sending the real message. if the latter, then things might go otherwise.

powerclown · 11-08-2004, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

do you think that strategy sits on an accurate assessment of the opposition in iraq?

I do, yes. Its been 6 months that the Coalition has had to gather intelligence and satellite recon, so I believe the situation is well understood by all parties involved. Its a simple strategy: wrest control out of the hands of the insurgents, deny them their sanctuary, destroy their command & control structure (which is believed to be based in Fallujah), put the town back under the authority of the Iraqi Government, stop civilian intimidation and allow for popular election. What is unfortunate is that this should have been done back during the War in 2003; its just going to make things that much harder and bloodier now, as the insurgents have had time to dig in and fortify their defenses.

Hi-Resolution Map of Fallujah (3.7mb)

The Operation is now fully underway.

In April, Coalition Forces tried to take Fallujah from the SE. This time they are entering from the NW, based on a peninsula lying West of the Euphrates. Two bridges (one of them the same bridge where insurgents had strung up the mutilated US contractors) and a hospital have been secured; the most dangerous sector of Fallujah is considered the Jolan District in the NW quarter of the city, which might explain the new incursion point. The Campaign will be in three phases: Phase I: Shaping the Battlespace, Phase II: Ground Assault, Phase III: Exploitation, Pursuit, Reconstruction.

British forces of the Black Watch have moved to positions east of the Euphrates, at the request of US military commanders, in order to "stop reinforcements moving north and block the way of insurgents leaving the city."

Quote:

The Black Watch will be serving as a blocking force, so that it can clean up any insurgents who flee to the east of the city of Fallujah. US air power will hit them on the roads and the Black Watch will stop those that make it through. The US will leave an escape point for the insurgents, provided that they have a strong level of trust in Marine/USAF air assets and the Black Watch to then destroy them. The Black Watch will be the anvil to the MEF's hammer.

Mephisto2 · 11-08-2004, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyhammer86

Please, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, C-Span, or USA Today aren't exactly what I'd consider "indepedent" media either.

SIGH

Well, firstly I never said they were.
Secondly, Fox is universally acknowledged as being more partisan than others.
Thirdly, Fox is used as an example of a biased network.

I couldn't care less about arguing the CNN vs Fox nonesense anymore (I got so tired of it in the run up to the election), but I was simply using Fox as a perfectly appropriate example of a skewed news network.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 11-08-2004, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

SIGH

Well, firstly I never said they were.
Secondly, Fox is universally acknowledged as being more partisan than others.

Only amoung the liberal circles. When it comes to the average person ALL networks are considered equally biased.

Quote:

At the same time, those who dismiss Fox as propaganda may be shocked that the other networks are viewed by voters in essentially the same light.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Broadcast%20Bias.htm

In fact Fox is viewed as LESS biased then some. Also note this report was done before CBS tried to win one for Kerry.

roachboy · 11-08-2004, 05:06 PM

at some point, you might try looking at actual studies of netowrk biais, ustwo, instead of simply repeating the conventional "wisdom" that circultes in right circles about how you are o so persecuted.

thanks for the information, powerclown: when i have a bit more time, i'll check around and have a look at your map as well.

Ustwo · 11-24-2004, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Taking a city that is defended, house by house, is nigh near impossible.

Just ask the Israelis.

Mr Mephisto

Oh Mr. Mephisto...... what is nigh near impossible again?

trickyy · 11-25-2004, 01:00 AM

ha ha, true it's over but did it help?

next target is the triangle of death, which was called the sunni triangle until two days ago? i do hope they get it all ship shape-ish for the election. i guess i'm kind of skeptical but i would really like a success over there. 5 bil a month is starting to hurt.

Rekna · 11-25-2004, 08:52 AM

The fight is over now but whether or not it was successful is yet to be said. We will see if the resistance lives on or not. The big problem is while we were assulting Falluja we lost control of every other major city.

roachboy · 11-25-2004, 09:49 AM

looks like i might have been closer to right than i thought, eh?
fallujah was predicated on the illusion that there was a centralized, single movement runing the show. there isnt.
there have been a number of articles appearing in the non american press concerning protests by various countries/ngos of american "excessive force" in fallujah--which pushes interpretation of it toward a show of brute force, like amsterdam in 1940, then toward the precision operation it was marketed as being for domestic consumption.

funny, isnt it?

Ustwo · 11-25-2004, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

The fight is over now but whether or not it was successful is yet to be said. We will see if the resistance lives on or not. The big problem is while we were assulting Falluja we lost control of every other major city.

Overstatement of the year award.

pedro padilla · 11-25-2004, 05:24 PM

yeah we really won their hearts and minds. Showed them the beauty of American style democracy. Any day now they´ll start throwing those flowers.

moosenose · 11-25-2004, 06:58 PM

Look on the positive side. There are now 1200 dead bad guys. No matter how you slice it, that's a good thing.

11-07-2004, 07:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
VitaminH An embarrassment to myself and those around me... Location: Pants	Well it's been building for awhile, guess it was bound to happen sometime. My video game warped mind doesn't see a way to take the city without first leveling it, but I'm no general, unless of course they have Tommy Vercetti, he seems pretty good at single handedly taking over a city In all seriousness though, it makes me sad to know a lot more people may die before this is over. __________________ "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte

11-07-2004, 07:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	I'm not one to pray, but I wish our men and women in the armed forces luck and success in Fellujah. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

11-07-2004, 07:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
fuzyfuzer Insane Location: st. louis	this had to happen sooner rather than later because we wnat a stable i raq as soon as posible. without that stability our economy is suffering this war was about oil and that is what our economy is based on. you have to give one to your side to be president and thats what bush did hopefully we can start to take some real control there. __________________ "The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited" "Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

11-07-2004, 08:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this is clearly a post-election move. i am not optimistic about how this will play out since it looks like a general retaliatory move rather than a precision one. i do not watch this with any fascination. i hope for minimal deaths all the way around. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-07-2004, 09:48 PM	#14 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	wow... sounds like we're gearing up again. as always, i pray for my brothers and sisters in arms and their families who wonder if they'll see them again. the new iraqi soldiers are also on my mind. they're in the difficult position of laying siege to a city in their own country. it must be hard for them to stay steadfast and resolute... yet the stability of the country and it's future are on their shoulders. i pray that they have the courage to win decisively and maintain the discipline necessary to avoiding more divisions w/their fellow iraqi countrymen down the road. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-07-2004, 06:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Manx Loser	But now a lot of our guys have combat experience. I spoke with a guy who returned from Iraq and he wanted to go back. His wife wouldn't let him. He told me they've been pulling out all the experience and replacing it with fresh off the boat. He was pissed. If a lack of combat experience somehow equates to a greater ability to achieve objectives, then maybe I'm wrong.

11-07-2004, 08:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	You didnt expect bush or whoever really runs this country to do this BEFORE the election, did you?

11-07-2004, 10:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	the loss of iraqi lives is simply staggering. i simply cannot see an end to the bloodshed...and perhaps that is a sin of inactive imagination, but i fear what we have unleashed is a genocide. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

11-07-2004, 10:11 PM	#17 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	Richard Clarke predicted this offensive months ago on the Daily Show, turns out he was right. Of course that also means that any Iraqi insurgent has seen this coming for months as well. Obviously the insurgents will flee or hide during this offensive and strike again once the pressure is off "The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend." duh ever heard of guerilla warfare? Apparently our generals have not.

11-07-2004, 11:11 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Taking a city that is defended, house by house, is nigh near impossible. Just ask the Israelis. Mr Mephisto

11-07-2004, 11:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	Ustwo, this is not a war nor a battle fought by the generals (not that I have infinite faith in them, either). This is a war created and fought by Bush and his neocons. Generals were ridiculed when they asked for more troops; soon enough, the Bushies were pushing a backdoor draft to supply them with enough men. The attack on Fallujah could have taken place over a long period of time. It waited until now because Bush put what he felt was the best plan of attack in Iraq on hold until after the election for no reason other than to futher his personal desire to be reelected. Not that I think that the attack on Fallujah is good policy (it is quite the opposite), but Bush did. And he held off until it would help his reelection chances the most. In the mean time, soldiers and civilians were dying in droves every day. What a guy, that Bush. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

11-08-2004, 01:52 AM	#25 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Hah... Well, I guess that's a fair comment. But isn't the press in a fair and open society meant to criticize the government and/or expose and report topics of interest? That's what we were always told when growing up. Another reason why Fox News is both lauded and laughed at (depening upon where you stand on the issue of independent media), as it so obviously does not follow an independent line. Mr Mephisto

11-08-2004, 08:20 AM	#27 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but why is this battle so important (more so than any other in the past?) So we win the battle in this next round of heavy advancement, then what? I know it's an enemy stronghold (or as some like to call it "terrorist" stronghold), but aside from that.. what's the big deal here? Is taking this city supposed to suppress most of the random attacks over the country or something? __________________ I love lamp.

11-08-2004, 09:48 AM	#29 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	powerclown: i wonder whether what you say in no. 28 reflects the same kind of wishful thinking that you saw in the algerian war and again in vietnam: what the adversary is, at some level, centralized, that it has a command structure that is symmetrical with that of the national army, that it has a head that can be cut off. do you think that this characterization is accurate with reference to american strategy here? do you think that strategy sits on an accurate assessment of the opposition in iraq? i am not an expert on military strategy, but it does not seem accurate, given the diffuse character of the insurgency, physically, tactically, in iraq. it is because i am skeptical about this that i wonder whether the attack is a general response (this is what happens if you fuck with us) rather than t specific one (this operation will incapacitate a particular insrugent organization or series of them)--i cann see this going either way. if the former, i expect the actual battle will be about brutality because it is the brutality itself that is sending the real message. if the latter, then things might go otherwise. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-08-2004, 05:06 PM	#33 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	at some point, you might try looking at actual studies of netowrk biais, ustwo, instead of simply repeating the conventional "wisdom" that circultes in right circles about how you are o so persecuted. thanks for the information, powerclown: when i have a bit more time, i'll check around and have a look at your map as well. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-25-2004, 01:00 AM	#35 (permalink)
trickyy ►	ha ha, true it's over but did it help? next target is the triangle of death, which was called the sunni triangle until two days ago? i do hope they get it all ship shape-ish for the election. i guess i'm kind of skeptical but i would really like a success over there. 5 bil a month is starting to hurt.

11-25-2004, 08:52 AM	#36 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	The fight is over now but whether or not it was successful is yet to be said. We will see if the resistance lives on or not. The big problem is while we were assulting Falluja we lost control of every other major city.

11-25-2004, 09:49 AM	#37 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	looks like i might have been closer to right than i thought, eh? fallujah was predicated on the illusion that there was a centralized, single movement runing the show. there isnt. there have been a number of articles appearing in the non american press concerning protests by various countries/ngos of american "excessive force" in fallujah--which pushes interpretation of it toward a show of brute force, like amsterdam in 1940, then toward the precision operation it was marketed as being for domestic consumption. funny, isnt it? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-25-2004, 05:24 PM	#39 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	yeah we really won their hearts and minds. Showed them the beauty of American style democracy. Any day now they´ll start throwing those flowers.

11-25-2004, 06:58 PM	#40 (permalink)
moosenose Banned	Look on the positive side. There are now 1200 dead bad guys. No matter how you slice it, that's a good thing.