Locobot

What makes you think I hate America?

hammer4all

It was a joke.

balderdash111

Yes, but you know that was a political ploy, right? He never intended for the bill to pass and, in fact, opposes the war. His points were to (a) get the draft issue out there, and (b) show the hypocrisy of those who support the war, but not if their own kids could get called up for it.

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Bodyhammer86

That sounds almost exactly like something Michael Moore would've said during the part of F 9/11 where he was going around trying to get the members of congress to sign their "children" up for the military.

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sprocket

Yes, it sounds like this Senator has taken the Rovian Fear Mongering 101 course. The discussion on the draft issue has become WAY overblown, and basically turned into a scare tactic to drum up anti-war support. I'm not saying its bad, but take it for what it is. The draft isnt coming back unless we find ourselves in another world war. I know alot of you are ready to beleive we are on the brink of nuclear apocolypse... but we're not there yet.

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balderdash111

I think we're on the same page but want to be sure. As I understood it, SOB cited the Rangel bill's resounding defeat as an indicator that there won't be a draft (and he/she took some glee from the fact that it was proposed by a Democrat). My point was that the Democrat in question proposed the bill, not because he supported a draft, but rather to protest the war.

Supporting a draft is poison to any politician, so you'll never find someone who supports it (publicly, anyway), so you should not look at Rangel's stunt as anything more than a stunt.

FWIW, I happen to think that the military is overstretched right now (as evidenced by the "stop loss" measures already implemented and the deep dip into the National Guard for Iraq deployments), so a draft or some major reshuffling of troop deployments (do we really need all those troops in Germany anymore?) would be necessary if there were another military conflict (whether initiated by GWB or by an opportunistic third country).

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Stompy

Actually it never mattered anyway. It was a myth, just like the "only son" clause.

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sob

Yes, my reply was tongue-in-cheek. However, I thought the 402-2 vote was worthy of note. Particularly for those who are making plans to head for Canada to avoid this supposedly imminent draft.


Yes, a "stunt" at taxpayer expense. Rangel is one of my least favorite politicians.

Although I haven't researched it, I thought that there was an announcement of a major reduction in forces stationed in Germany.

Around three or four months ago, if memory serves.

Ustwo

The sort of sad thing about the draft stunt, was that they were hoping to appeal to the base emotions of the youth vote. Fear, sloth, and cowardice. The assumption was they would not want to serve their country.

In other words, they thought the youth would act like they would.

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balderdash111

Please, please, please get off your high horse, would you?

Do you honestly think that young people don't want to go to Iraq because they are scared, lazy and chicken? Could it possibly be because they don't support the war in the first place? Do you think that if people were called to serve, they would be lazy cowards in combat (or, to be more precise, do you think there would be more lazy cowards than in any other conflict?)

Stop it, ok? Honest policy differences are one thing, but this kind of attitude is really counter-productive.

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Evil Milkman

A military conscription will probably not happen.

However, if there is a "national emergency" in which hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of Americans die here in the states (i.e. suitcase bomb, bio-warfare, etc), I could easily forsee the majority of the public supporting a draft whilst our Congress takes no blame for.

Stompy

I think it's hilarious when people call others cowards, yet they're the ones who refuse to go fight themselves

You say coward, but I'll retort with a lovely middle finger to your direction and a grin on my face full of happiness because I know my life won't be WASTED for some bullshit cause. Complain alllll you want, because it really does go in one ear and out the other.

There's a trend where people have this ego in thinking, "It's your DUTY to serve your country, you should be PROUD!" Yeah yeah, guess what? I couldn't give a fuck less! That type of moronic thinking is what gets people into deep shit to begin with. I have more important things to worry about, and trust me, the terrorist boogeymen won't affect it at all

So, if you're head is swelling with this illusionary sense of pride and patriotism for your country, then by all means, suit up and walk to the front lines with a gun. The more, the merrier!

I'll be sitting here living my life the way *I* want not giving a shit about the whiners and complainers that attempt to toss insults of "coward" or "traitor". Coward? Hah, here, let's play some russian roulette. Let me hold this gun to your stupid head. Oh, don't wanna do it? Coward

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balderdash111

FWIW, I don't think this is productive, either (obviously edited to leave just the worst of it)

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Stompy

*shrug*

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

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balderdash111

Yes, but we all have a duty to maintain civil discourse as well.

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sob

I get it--it's like this:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Stompy's Answer:

Sure hope he's interested in killing my kids and taking their lunch money so I can run away!

Democrat's answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or Oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.

Republican's Answer:

BANG!

Southern Republican's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click....(sounds of reloading).

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?

archer2371

I have said many times before, and I'll say it again. I don't think a draft will happen, but if called up, I will go serve, regardless of where it is. Not because of patriotism, not because I believe in the cause, but because I believe in the men that are fighting, and I'll be damned if some enemy puts a bullet in a soldier's head because I wasn't there to watch his back.

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hammer4all

Your analogy doesn't hold Sob. You're describing a situation in which there is an imminent threat. It is perfectly legal under international law to carry out a "pre-emptive war" if there is an imminent threat of attack.

balderdash111

Well, no.

It's actually like this:

Democrat:

BANG! Then feel badly about it later, wondering what drove that man to take such desperate action and resolving to try to figure out a way to stop others from descending that far.

(PS: I am a Democrat - at least most of the time)

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tecoyah

Please do not get anymore personal in this thread.....lest it be shut down....and time outs issued

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sob

It was a recycled joke. I was calling attention to Stompy's philosophy of letting everyone else do the heavy lifting, as opposed to what I consider a very admirable stance by Archer 2371.

If I interpret Stompy correctly, he adheres to these tenets:

1. Let everybody else fight if necessary; I'll hide and reap the benefits gained by the sacrifice, including death, of others.

2. Let everybody else work, but anybody who makes more than I do should have to give some of it to me, or to people I choose.

I'll sit back and wait for the posts telling me how wrong I am. It won't be hard to refute them.

Stompy

Like I said, in one ear and out the other.

Since you (like many others I've had to do this with) are incapable of reading, I'll quote what I said earlier in the thread, and afterwards will simply ignore your posts since (chances are) they won't hold any water anyway and will be filled with more twisting of words, ignoring of previous posts, etc, which results in me wasting my time and you being uninformed.

Now pay attention, since you failed to do so early on:

"If it was something like another Hitler that amassed this massive army and we didn't have enough manpower to fight it, then that's another story. I just don't fight trivial wars, that's all."

What benefits were gained from Vietnam? We went into that war because politicians have big egos that needed smashed. What benefits and freedoms will we personally gain from the war in Iraq? Us liberating another country is not defending against a threat in any manner. France, Spain, or Germany could've easily went in themselves if it was a problem (and they're closer to Iraq than we are!)

These wars are drastically different from something like the american revolution or Japan bombing Pearl Harbor.

And no, your analogy doesn't work for the very simple fact you have no idea who I am. You can't even correctly interpret the points I try to make, so how can you even remotely get anything else correct about me? If someone threatened my family and I happened to have a gun, the guy would be dead, plain and simple. Don't bother refuting that because which one of us is me here? You? I don't think so.

Where the fuck did this come from? I never said that or anything close to that.

It seems to me you'll have a nice time trying to twist words in such a way they weren't intended, so.. I'll just choose to ignore your posts from now on

Like I said, though... in one ear out the other. Throw "insults" around all you want ("coward"), but it means nothing to me since my head isn't swelling with with gross amounts of pride and patriotism. You're the one upset about it, not me, and guess what's gonna be done about that? Ah, not much

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tecoyah

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