Manx

I think the issue here is a confusion, primarily on the part of the conservative, over what is a liberal "ideal".

Evolution is not a liberal concept.
Non-discrimination to minorities is not a liberal concept.
Seperation of church and state is not a liberal concept.
A woman's right to control her body is not a liberal concept.

But these are some of the many things that liberals fight for when they are legislated out of existence.

Justsomeguy

In no way is segregation laws a legitimate defense of gay marriage. I'm sorry, but it just isn't so.

filtherton

Comparing the struggle against oppression to the struggle to oppress is only accurate in that both are struggles to exert a will on the population at large. Beyond that, any meaningful comparison is lost and you slip into the realm of moral relativism(conservatives can use it when it suits their purpose) where fighting for your rights are bad because in doing so you deny your oppressors their right to oppress you. It matters little whether one side is acting in a way counter to the spirit of our nation's constitution. Martin luther king had no right to complain about the oppression of blacks, after all, he was attempting to oppress whites by denying them their god given right to treat all minorities like trash.

Fucking give me a break.

Generally when you make an assertion you back it up with some sort of logic or rationale.

Halx

I dont get you at all.

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Ustwo

Which of your rights, that you have currently are in jepordy?

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Manx

The claim was made that there is a conflict between core beliefs between liberals/humanists/secularists and fundamentalists.

This is only true if evolution is nothing more than a core belief. If the concept of non-discrimination is nothing more than a core belief.

But neither of those concepts or others like them, are core beliefs. Evolution is not a belief like creationism is a belief. Evolution is. Creationism is a concept derived from "the word of God".

It is not an equally valid/equally invalid belief system vs. belief system. It is the way things are vs. the way someone wants to perceive things (and wants others to perceive things).

tecoyah

Given the above statement.....is it not simply your "belief" that evolution simply is. As perception is much like a belief in God , in that it cannot be shown to another, merely explained in a language that is not capable of fully getting the reality across.
Mind you....I am playing the devils advocate here, as I actually agree with most of what was said.

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Justsomeguy

Why does it require logic? It's a false analogy. We're talking natural rights vs. privledges.

But, lets just consider it as a right.
Logic for you:

All United States Citizens have the right to be married.
A gay man is a United States citizen.
A gay man has the right to be married.

Yes, that is a true statement if marriage is a right and it's parallel with civil rights laws.

No human should be a slave to another man.
A black man is a human.
A black man should not be a slave to another man.

Personally, I think the government is more justified than eliminating marriage than eliminating the abolition of slavery. Maybe you don't?

I've always wondered that if the argument for gay marriage is that the government has no right to dictate private behavior, then why are they not trying to just get legal recognition of marriage to be eliminated?

Halx

All of those which clash with the christian view of life, and more importantly, all of those which I do no have yet, but am fighting for.

The common arguement is "that could never happen" - but I see it differently. Life is spent in the progression toward an end. Whatever end you progress toward is essentially your 'goal'. You may never reach it, but your world will begin to take on characteristics of your goal as you progress.

The Conservative Christian way of life is a sheltered, controlled march through our living days. Anti-gays. Anti-abortion. Anti-euthanasia. Anti-drugs. Anti-sex. Anti-deviance. Regardless of if they ever succeed in having their ultimate Christian government, the progression toward it is enough to make me puke.

I'm trying to propose a progression in the other direction, towards a goal where more and more freedoms are given to people so that they may live their own lives how they please without Big Brother breathing down their neck.

As a little aside, I find it ironic that you will find more Christian republicans in areas of spread out residences, where they essentially do have the freedom to do whatever they wish without the authority of the government scrutinizing them. However, in densely populated areas where authority can more easily be asserted, you will find more liberals. Well, perhaps it's not ironic, but an example of struggle.

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ARTelevision

Manx, if you are asking for my opinion. There is nothing that has been enumerated here that is not simply a core belief. As I indicated, there exists a struggle over core beliefs - nothing more, nothing less.

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Ustwo

Halx you are having after election over reaction.

If all 59 million Bush voters were conservative Christian, you might be right, but they arn't. If Bush attempted to set things back to 1850 he would lose both congress and the senate in 2006, making him impotent.

Defining marriage as male+female only MAY well happen, but because it is a majority issue more then a political one. Even people who would not vote Bush still voted for the marriage amendments.

In 2008 you will still be making porn if you want.

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former newt

seems to me that the biggest discussion here is over too much religion in government.

let me just post some of my feelings about this (quoted from my posts in another forum)

Halx

You just managed to ignore everything I said.

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Manx

You are correct. I overstated. I did not understand Halx's comment. The post he responded to was simply pointing out that evolution is not a liberal concept, it is a scientific concept. That it is questioned so emphatically by many variations of social conservatives does not place it on one side of political polarization.

OFKU0

If you think your freedoms are being eroded in America due to George Bush's policies, think how some of the rest of the world feels because of his tendencies to 'do the right thing.' Actually at times some Americans must get really pissed off since he spends more time running other countries than his own. Kind of like the guy at work who doesn't do his job but has all the time in the world telling you how to do yours.

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Ustwo

If you want to change society, then take it to 'the people' and get them to side with those changes. Thats why we have elections. If you expect judges to do it for you, you are in the wrong political system.

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DelayedReaction

Fifty years ago "the people" thought it was okay for blacks to be treated as second class citizens. Today gays have taken their place. It wasn't right back then, and it isn't right now.

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pan6467

Actually you are wrong, with the Supreme Court being final say short of an amendment, judges and lawsuits are the only way for true change to happen. Especially when you have such nasty partisan political games that the only change that will happen is set to thumb it's nose at the "losing" side.

But I'm willing to see what happens within the next 2 years. And I hope I am wrong but I see the GOP trying to take this country backward in almost every aspect. And the Libertarians who voted for Bush and Conservatives who believe in less government need to be ashamed for supporting a man that quite possibly will be making laws on morals left and right.

Of course by setting extremely high fines and changing the laws so fast companies don't have time to adjust, it would be one way to make up for lower taxes.... and you may force some of those "liberal" broadcasting companies to go bankrupt.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Locobot

The Christian Right owns the Republican party. Anyone who opposes their agenda but voted republican is a tool and deserves to have their rights stripped away.

Halx

It's obvious that 'the people' are easily mislead nowadays. And by the way, you guys are here as part of my society, so I'm going to start with you. I'm probably barking up the wrong tree though, because you've managed to sidestep my material completely to this point. Do YOU want to have the responsibility of being the start of a better way of life for everyone? Or are you content to side with the party that pleases your needs and not your neighbors'?

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cbr9racr

morals aren't bad....and not all freedoms are good. Somewhere there's a balance.

tecoyah

My feelings on this:

Breath this paid for line
Make me see your imagined path
As this road is drawn by writers quill
Fabricated belief is propogandas’ birth
Oh, how you feel my countrys’ ache
A crowd at a time
Tell us plans of future times
Knowing full well, what is the chance
Proclaim your love and show ill will
For such fortitude as needed for my earth
Is beyond your reach to take
And this indeed, is crime

Fail me, as you will
I am but one, amongst this mass
But in the end all will fail
If yours is set to pass

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha