OFKU0

Quite a poignant picture.

If the war in Iraq was a just war, then that picture would be in bad taste. Since it is a war of lies and vengance though, those who feel the picture is disrespectful shouldn't blame and pin responsibility of those deaths on Michael Moore but rather the man with who sent them there, George W Bush.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

almostaugust

Yeah, sad picture.

I wonder how many murals you could make with all the nameless Iraq's killed in this conflict. I dont think its in bad taste either. People losing their life is a serious issue. This war is a serious issue.

D Rice

It is a picture of U.S. soilders who have made the ultimate sacrafice to thier country. By having their pictures on his website is negating the honor they should have for being willing to die for what thier country beleives. Moore is a fat bastard who has probably gained 50 pounds because he is pissed his bullshit and twisted facts didn't make Bush lose the election.

Coppertop

I don't think it is disrespectful. Perhaps this helps keep the human nature of the deaths palpable, which is a good thing. These are people who have died, not faceless bodies in uniform. We must never forget that.

As Stalin said: "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." And he ought to know.

And for all of you who claim that every one of these soldiers died for what they believed in: shame on you. Shame on you for disregarding the individuality of every one of those soldiers. You don't know them or what they felt about being in Iraq.

pan6467

I think if the purpose of this picture is to change people's opinion of the war it won't. It's divisive and hate filled. IMO!!!! I feel a better picture one that gets the point across much more meaningful, less hate filled and more apt to get righty's and centrist's eyes woul have been to have pictures of fat wallets, halliburton, oil wells, WMD's x'd out, and so on.

There has been far too much divisiveness in this country. We can peacefully and respectfully protest this war without shit like this that makes the vast majority hate and vote us Dems out even more.Noone listens to hate, noone will vote hate... give fact but give them with compassion and realize these men were people.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Manx

I'm not clear where you got that impression. Quite a few people listen and vote based on hate. You only need to look at the 11 anti-gay marriage initiatives that passed resoundingly.

Appealing to hatred is a highly motivating tactic.

flstf

To use the portraits of grieving families loved ones this way is despicable. Whether or not they agreed with the cause, they all made the ultimate sacrifice in service of their country and deserve our respect.

Shame on the artist for using their portraits for political propaganda. The party that endorses this disrespect will not convince many folks to their cause.

OFKU0

I understand and respect your opinion and certainly don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone but,...in a similar sense, minus any portraits, George Bush used the families and the images of the twin towers falling through out his arguement for war as a precurser to war in Iraq when Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. That too could be considered political propaganda at the expense of innocent victims.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Coppertop

Amen. That was far worse in my view. Bush can be tied to the deaths in Iraq whereas Sadaam cannot be tied to the deaths on 9-11.

Bodyhammer86

Revenge has been served

__________________
Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

rukkyg

pan6467

I'm sorry I meant hate talk of the war. I truly appologize felt I had implied it and said it and when i looked over the post I didn't.

I don't believe you can talk hate of a war we are in and win an election fr President.... and perhaps even Senator (depending on the state). Not right now at least, and as much as people talk about the 60's I don't think then. So this picture alienates more people from the Dems. Because the Dems. have aligned themselves willfully to MM. So in some people's minds when he does something like this picture, those moderates figure the Dem party no longer relates it is too far left and vote GOP.

What is sad is we have no Dems that came out against MM this election season and told him to "f-off and leave the party alone". Instead a couple ELECTED Dems that said .... "this is no longer my party, they no longer speak for me. The rest of the Dem party bent over backwards pleasing MM and making up excuses for the exodus of longtime elected Dems. And never sat dowbn and thought, "we just maybe pushing people too far left and they are leaving us. Perhaps we need to get our priorities straight and decide whether we try our best to serve ALL THE PEOPLE or just do whackjobs for special interest groups and Hollywood.

So yeah art is art and always has a statement and sometimes it is distasteful, and sometimes it serves a purpose and sometimes the purpose it is trying to get across is so inspired by negativity the message comes out too negative and the reaction is not what the intention was wanting to bring about.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

rukkyg

If my comment was unnecessary, so was this one. @#(&$@(#$@#*)@

Dwayne

Ok, Micheal Moore is an activist. He uses his fame to speak out against what he thinks is wrong. I dont think it is right for anyone to exploit dead people with out the permission of imiddiate relatives, however I fine this image less offensive than when Bush exploited 9/11.

sob

I'm going to post my response to a different person.

sob

Okay, here's a scenario. Note that it's not a personal attack, but a hypothetical:

Let's say a family member of yours died in a car wreck. Let's further say that the cause of the wreck was alcohol-related. Doesn't have to be your relative who was drinking.

Would you be okay with a picture of your bloody relative, lying in the road, being posted widely as an admonishment not to drink and drive? After all, manx says it's okay. To quote him, "Art does not need to make you feel good. Art simply exists to make you feel.

And based on the passion of your response to this art, it seems it has been very successful."




Except for the 51% who voted for Bush.

cthulu23

I guess that you can add Mothers Against Drunk Driving to the "outrageous" list, as they constantly post billboards of persons killed by drunk drivers.

Manx

I don't know if you were addressing this question to me - I believe not as you deemed it acceptable to answer it on my behalf.

I would _certainly_ be "okay" with a picture of my relative (not necessarily a bloody, lying in the road picture of my relative) being used as an admonishment to not drink and drive. In fact, if someone else didn't create such a statement, I would do it myself.

But you are clearly making some assumptions about the word "okay". Is it "okay" that whomever created the Bush/Dead Soldiers montage did so? Is it "okay" to whom? The soldiers families? Maybe. Maybe not. Is it "okay" to you? I don't care. Is it "okay" to me? Sure.

Something being "okay" is very different from something being illegal. There may be legal ramifications in using someone's likeness without either their permission or the permission of the family. But the legality of the action is very distinct from the subjective consideration of whether it is "okay".

My statement on art is entirely applicable. And I would add that art does not have to be "okay" to anyone at all. Maybe it is illegal art, maybe it is not. Regardless - it was effective art.

sob

I don't recall using the word "outrageous." Can you point that out for me?

I also won't dwell on the fact that the point of my message seems to have been missed.

However, do you think MADD does so with the knowledge that some of the families of the deceased disagree with the message promoted by the use of the pictures?

sob

No, I QUOTED you. There's a difference.

And here I thought it was the REPUBLICANS who were supposed to be devoid of sensitivity and tolerance for the feelings of others.

Then again, it was Clinton who "loathed the military." I see that he represented his party accurately.

You're right about the "art" being effective, too--Bush got more votes than any presidential candidate in history.

jonjon42

The feeling I got from MM's post and the picture is similar to the feel I have whenever I visit the Vietnamn memorial in DC. It's sad to see the name and face of those that died. It makes it more personal, they are no longer just a statistic. MM I believe is trying to remind people of that. My feelings on Moore are convoluted, for I do like and believe in some of the things he does, yet he does go a bit over the top.

the picture itself is a powerful statement. Since I don't know where the artist or artists got these photos from (from families or media or other) I can't say whether he crossed the line by using the likeness of these people despite the wishes of the families.

__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

Coppertop

This might almost work if the pictures of the soldiers were pictures of their dead bodies lying in the streets and deserts of Iraq. They weren't, so this example is pointless. The pictures look to be "official" type photographs taken of the soldiers while not at war and probably here in the States.

Were you to change your picture of a "bloody relative, lying in the road" to say a school photo or other such thing you would make a more compelling argument. As it is you're merely trying to incite emotive responses from people. You failed.

Prince

Be honest; you don't even know what communism is about, do you? You are blissfully unaware of what it stands for or how it is structured, where it originates from and from whom.

You are simply happy to use it as a derogatory word to associate with anyone that you do not consider to agree with whatever you personally feel America should represent.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

cthulu23

I wasn't using the quotes as a direct attribution to you, rather, I was using them to signify that I don't agree with the emotional thrust. Perhaps that is confusing, so I'll try another signifier in the future.

How do you know that the families of the deceased disagree with the picture? Some may hate it, but all we have so far are assumptions.

sprocket

Just my IMHO, but I feel the picture would be most poignant if it had the real culprit responsible for those deaths in the image instead of GWB.... Saddam Hussein.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

cthulu23

Sure, why not. Let's forget that the majority of casualties have come after Saddam fell from power. It's always easy to blame the bogeyman.

sob

Good, because I don't like being inaccurately quoted.


I live in a town where US Special Forces are trained. One personal friend of mine ran Operation K-Bar in Afghanistan. Another received a Purple Heart in Baghdad recently. A third is the head of the Special Warfare School here, and he makes a point of personally delivering the news of the death of men in his command to the families.

Having discussed the matter with him, I'm comfortable in saying that many military families (and I'd venture to say MOST active duty service members) think we're doing the right thing in Iraq, even though they have their complaints, and would prefer not to be there. My conversations with him also make me confident in stating that many of the families resent (or would resent, if they became aware of it) the use of pictures of their deceased relative in anti-war statements.

I'd say they probably feel about like Elizabeth Edwards would if someone told her she deserves cancer, because her husband got rich unjustly suing physicians.

Got a problem with that? Is it time to parse the word "okay" again?

cthulu23

As I said, it wouldn't surprise me if some families hated it. I'm still waiting for an example, though.

It's funny that you should mention that....

Where the hell did that come from? I "parse" strings for a living, but I don't believe that we've ever worked together.

smooth

you based all that assumption on what you gathered from 3 people?!

not to mention your acquantances most likely share similar ideas as you. yet, it doesn't seem odd to you in the least that they would reinforce something you believed a priori.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

sob

You need names? I recommend Google.



Perhaps you could let us in on the humor.



From one of today's posts. Did you read any?

sob

Three well-informed people in a position to know, since the last one in particular works WITH the subject group. If you question the validity of his opinion, I'd be very interested to know your basis for doing so.

No, it seems odd that you disagree with my opinion, since it appears that you don't know anyone in the subject group, or anyone who knows many of its members.

cthulu23

I recommend backing your argument up. You did bring it up after all.

One of the more trollish of our fellow posters has already made a somewhat similar statement.

I've read many, some quite nonsensical. Specificity can be helpful.

smooth

you should ascertain more information before you spout off an ignorant opinion--especially when you claim to speak for someone else. I am a member of a very large military family. In fact, every male member of my family stretching from my grandfather (and his brothers) down to my brother (that goes down through father), my uncle's family, my grandmother's (her father) sister's descendents (her husband, three sons, and their sons) are and have been in every branch of the military. All the male members of my mother's side of the family were in multiple branches, too. That includes her father, her step-father, and her 2 brothers.

In short, I could sit here and list over 70 people in my blood family in the military.

I grew up in North County, San Diego. And lived out my teenage life in Point Loma. In case you don't know the military concentration in San Diego allow me to inform you that your 3 friends' opinions don't impress me with their breadth of knowledge as to how military families feel about what's going on in Iraq.

and I'm not going to give you a lesson on validity--I paid good money for my lessons.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

filtherton

oooh snap!


Whether this image is disrespectful or not is a matter of opinion. What i find questionable is the desire by some to express outrage on behalf of other people. If you aren't a member of a family of a fallen soldier, than you have no basis to be offended. How real is your outrage if you're outraged at the idea that someone else might be outraged? You're just posturing, maybe because getting all offended about something makes you feel important, i don't know.

host

Your indignation is misplaced. The Bush photomosaic was created in response
to the Bush administration's penchant for "playing politics with the dead", first
by suppressing all images of American war casualties and then by the
double standard employed in an attempt to justify their cheap exploitation
of the image of the remains of a 9/11 victim in a Bush campaign video.

Moore had nothing to do with the creation of this Bush photomosaic. Like
many other websites, Moore provided a prominent web address where this
photo compilation could be easily located and viewed.
Here are the comments of the man who created the Bush photomosaic:<a href="http://amleft.blogspot.com/archives/2004_04_01_amleft_archive.html#10813433295590473">http://amleft.blogspot.com/archives/2004_04_01_amleft_archive.html#10813433295590473</a>
<center><center><img src="http://me.to/svr015.gif">

Here is the news story and photo of the truly offensive, self interested display of the remains of a "war on terror" causalty:
<center><center><img src="http://me.to/svr009.gif">

sob

Another straw man argument--if you can't do better than this, don't expect a reply in the future. For the record, the subject group was FAMILIES OF SERVICE MEMBERS KILLED IN IRAQ, NOT JUST MILITARY MEMBERS.

And, just so we're clear, I was IN the military, so even if your argument were valid, if we're going on numbers, I know hundreds of present and former military members.

But again, numbers weren't the point. The POINT was that SOME families of deceased servicemen don't appreciate photos of their loved one posted on Michael Moore's website to promote his warped opinions.


Well, how about that! We're neighbors!

I live in Coronado, California. Say the word, and I'll set up a meeting with the Rear Admiral in charge of the Naval Special Warfare School. He's the one I mentioned earlier.

I'll let you explain to him your opinion that it's not improper for Michael Moore to misuse their loved ones' photos. Don't forget--he travels to the family members to give them the bad news. He also takes it very personally when one of his teammates dies.

Better yet, let's have dinner at McP's, the local SEAL bar. I'll make sure your opinions are distributed widely throughout the establishment.

Yeah, I'd heard Wal-Mart's receipts are up.

almostaugust

To those who are offended by the mural, are you also offended by Bush's use of 9/11 footage (including coffins) for his own political ends?

__________________
'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'

smooth

actually, the only point you made that I was responding to with my credentials was this:



Yeah, let's set up a meeting and I'll repeat the only opinion I offered in this thread:


If he has a problem with me questioning whether you can speak in this forum for all members in Iraq or their family members based on just speaking to a few people, I'd be shocked.


I don't know anything about Wal-Mart, but you sure like to spout off some stupid shit and call people on logical errors.

Thinking about it, maybe we need to meet up if not for the fact that I can help fix your problem for you. PM me your contact info.

as for not repyling, why wait? I'm tired of your thread sniping anyway.


EDIT: when did I say this you fucking tool:

"I'll let you explain to him your opinion that it's not improper for Michael Moore to misuse their loved ones' photos."


...talk about logical fallacies, how about trying to read first!

Second edit:

if a mod or member takes exception at my last comment, before you temp ban me or anything consider how inflammatory it is to have some dude spouting off on an anonymous forum that he, and he alone, has ownership of how families of service people in Iraq or the people themselves feel or should feel based on his lunches with an Admiral in one of the cushiest places in San Diego. Fuck that and fuck anyone who wants to tell me how I should feel about my family members who have laid their lives on the line, who have given their lives for this country, and are currently risking their lives for this country.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

host

Read my post above, or read the story at this link......Michael Moore did NOT
create the Bush photomosaic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=74993">http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=74993</a>

But.....the Bush re-election campaign did create the video that uses the
image of a 9/11 victim's remains, draped in an American flag as they are
carried out of the WTC rubble by a recovery team.....and.....Bush approved
the campaign ad.....and Bush reelection campaign spokespeople defended the
use of the images in the ad, and refused to retract the ad when they
were questinoned about their double standard, and their judgment.

sob

Your post doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you wouldn't embarrass yourself, and me for bringing you. When he backs me up, are you going to call him a "fucking tool" also?

Looks like someone is a little piqued about having their ass handed to them after pretending to be such an expert on the military.

And you make it so EASY to point out logical errors!


After reading this post, I decline.


Hmmm. I can see why you call yourself "smooth."

You know, I was cautioned by a moderator for telling someone I doubted that anyone had much use for him. It will be interesting to see if our moderator has a problem with your above statement.

However, never fear. I've already saved it, and I'll remind you of it from time to time. That's the good thing about the web--it's hard to hide what you've said before.

Ask John Kerry how harmful that can be.

Don't worry. If they temp ban you, you can always get a job writing for a greeting card company.