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sob 11-06-2004 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
I guess one could take what I said to mean that if I chose to drive on either side of the road, it wouldn't detract from my identity as an american.

Presumably, if one were to drive on either side of a road, provided one didn't harm someone else, that would fit perfectly with what I consider to be an american act.

Of course, I'm just indulging you. you made a series of logical errors to construct that analogy.

Sorry, you're just flat-out wrong. It's not my fault if you don't understand the concept of "Reductio ad absurdum."

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
maybe I should make this more clear for you, since you seem to be unable to comprehend the difference or are uneducated on this topic:

The above would be argumentum ad hominem, another logical fallacy commonly employed when the writer has been proven wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
my identity as a US citizen and any special rights afforded to me as a consequence of that status are not derived from my actions, thought, or desires. They are a consequence of my birthright. This, of course, does not apply to immigrants, who can have their citizenship stripped.

therefore, my actions, thoughts, or desires can not determine or change my status as a citizen. and in so far as this nation is constituted of its citizenry, not any other entity, their is no abstract entity that can operate externally of those citizens to lay greater claim to what is 'American.'

The above would be a "straw man" argument, another logical fallacy.

Game, set, and match.

But thanks for playing!

smooth 11-06-2004 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob
Sorry, you're just flat-out wrong. It's not my fault if you don't understand the concept of "Reductio ad absurdum."



The above would be argumentum ad hominem, another logical fallacy commonly employed when the writer has been proven wrong.



The above would be a "straw man" argument, another logical fallacy.

Game, set, and match.

But thanks for playing!

good job on googling all those--too bad you misused them.

as for the first, you needed to prove that your conclusion is false, not merely that it looks false. it simply isn't correct to impute 'american' to driving on any side of a road. so my refusal to drive on the 'correct' side does not falsify the american-ness of my driving habits.

EDIT: actually, I'll rephrase this portion to clarify where you went wrong. you seem to have, either intentionally or not, confused the issue of culture or tradtion with essence. So while we speak of an American way of driving, there isn't any essential characteristic that makes it true.

That does not hold when we speak of the unique case of US rights of citizenship--which are argued to be essential characteristics given by the creator and our constitution by birth. /edit

as for the second, I prefered to think of it as an either-or fallacy when I wrote it. but if you prefer to take it as an attack on your person, realize that it speaks less to whether I felt I had lost an argument and more whether I was exasperated with your examples.

maybe you'd care to demonstrate how the last example is a strawman?

I'm not sitting on a debate panel.

sob 11-06-2004 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0nsensical
Yes, but certainly not to take over a country that has never attacked us.

Then you should support draft registration. If you're already registered, then Stompy, whom you applaud, gets a free ride while you defend the country.

Oh--could you tell me when Bosnia attacked us? I missed it.

smooth 11-06-2004 08:05 PM

I'm sorry I had to run out and eat a piece of pizza, but I was just curious if this ironic statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob
Sorry, you're just flat-out wrong. It's not my fault if you don't understand the concept of "Reductio ad absurdum."

coupled with this assertion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob
Quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth
maybe I should make this more clear for you, since you seem to be unable to comprehend the difference or are uneducated on this topic:
The above would be argumentum ad hominem, another logical fallacy commonly employed when the writer has been proven wrong.

means you had been proven wrong?

Justsomeguy 11-06-2004 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr
Your post makes no sense, you just quoted something that I did not even say, then followed it with more non sense stating that I should not be bitter if my candidate of choice did not win the election? After that you went on and said I should move to Vietnam in a couple years? I'm sorry, but you lost me completely. Are you trying to say that I should support Bush and his destruction of America as well as other countries just because he is president? If that is what you are saying, than my answer remains as no, I will not support him like some kind of robot even though I don't agree with him.

My post was simple to understand. It's easier to bitch then to stand up and do something. Second, I meant that the way people act about politics in the United States makes me feel like I'm in high school again. Everyone overdramatizes everything. However, our current situation is not near as bad as it is in so many other countries.

Finally, I was also commenting on people that say they hope something bad happens to America so we'll wake up to what's really happening. I've seen it in many other post. In my opinion, that makes them very shitty people.

Rdr4evr 11-06-2004 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justsomeguy
My post was simple to understand. It's easier to bitch then to stand up and do something. Second, I meant that the way people act about politics in the United States makes me feel like I'm in high school again. Everyone overdramatizes everything. However, our current situation is not near as bad as it is in so many other countries.

Finally, I was also commenting on people that say they hope something bad happens to America so we'll wake up to what's really happening. I've seen it in many other post. In my opinion, that makes them very shitty people.

Actually, I never said I hope something bad happens to America, I just said if it does, don't be surprised.

CinnamonGirl 11-06-2004 09:49 PM

Y'know, I'd vote for someone who didn't run a SINGLE AD in Ohio. Yeesh. I even had one on AIM a few days before the election.

hmmm...I've heard lots of talk about Rudy and Hillary. And I wouldn't mind seeing Powell run. Other than that, no clue right now... but, hey, I have four years to research :)

n0nsensical 11-06-2004 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sob
Then you should support draft registration. If you're already registered, then Stompy, whom you applaud, gets a free ride while you defend the country.

Oh--could you tell me when Bosnia attacked us? I missed it.

This doesn't make sense. I don't support a draft under any circumstances. There are a few (very few) cases where I would vountarily join and imagine others would too.
Bosnia never attacked us. I didn't join the military in 1993 either.


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