republican thugs will not be allowed to harass voters at the polls in ohio - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Scipio · 11-01-2004, 10:02 AM

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/10069015.htm

Note: Registration required, but I have posted it in its entirety. For those pesky websites, I highly recommend http://www.bugmenot.com

Quote:

Two federal judges deny voter challenges at polls

TERRY KINNEY

Associated Press

CINCINNATI - Two federal judges on Monday barred political party representatives from challenging voters at polling places throughout Ohio. State Republicans planned to appeal.

An order by U.S. District Judge Susan Dlott of Cincinnati found that the application of Ohio's statute allowing challengers at polling places was unconstitutional.

U.S. District Judge John Adams of Akron said poll workers are the ones to determine if voters are eligible.

"In light of these extraordinary circumstances, and the contentious nature of the imminent election, the court cannot and must not turn a blind eye to the substantial likelihood that significant harm will result not only to voters, but also to the voting process itself, if appointed challengers are permitted at the polls," Adams said.

The ruling says people appointed as challengers cannot be at the polls for the sole purpose of challenging voters' qualifications.

Republicans said Adams' ruling would allow them to still be in the polling places. In that case, challengers would plan "to observe, to be vigilant, to take notes," Weaver said.

But Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell's office sent a memo to county election boards Monday telling them to bar all challengers from polling places, based on the two rulings. Adams' office refused to clarify the ruling.

Dlott said the presence of challengers inexperienced in the electoral process questioning voters about their eligibility would impede voting.

Mark Weaver, lawyer for the Ohio Republican Party, said the party would appeal Dlott's ruling to the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati. If the appeals court agrees to keep challengers out of the polls, the party was prepared to appeal Adams' ruling.

"The law is clearly in our favor," Weaver said. "The 6th Circuit has already had to correct some of the bad decisions made by district court judges and we think they'll do it again."

Dlott ruled on a lawsuit by a black Cincinnati couple who said Republican plans to deploy challengers to largely black precincts in Hamilton County was meant to intimidate and block black voters.

In Akron, the Summit County Democratic Party sued the state to try to block the witnesses, claiming the law allowing registration challenges is unconstitutional because it does not give a disqualified voter a chance to appeal in time to cast a ballot.

Republicans wanted to put challengers in polling places because of concerns about fraud with hundreds of thousands of newly registered voters in a state President Bush and Sen. John Kerry both say they need to win.

Dlott said in her order that the evidence "does not indicate that the presence of additional challengers would serve Ohio's interest in preventing voter fraud better than would the system of election judges."

The rulings apply to all 88 counties, said Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Blackwell.

If the challengers appointed by political parties, issue campaigns and candidates are barred from polling places Tuesday, the only people under state law who could then issue challenges would be four election officials at each precinct, who are divided between political parties, or another voter.

Andy Padrutt, executive director of the Democratic Party in Summit County, said Adam's ruling was a victory.

The Republican challenges would cause "havoc and chaos in the polls on Election Day," Padrutt said. "It would really serve no purpose. All it would do is disenfranchise voters without recourse."

In a separate case last week, Dlott had temporarily halted election board hearings on challenges. The state GOP had challenged 35,000 registrations because mail to those addresses came back undelivered. Democrats said the GOP was trying to keep poor and minorities, who move more often, from voting, and was targeting new voters registered by political groups supporting Kerry.

I'm always surprised at the number of Republicans who are unaware that their party is doing this in several swing states. Although they have a legitimate concern in that a small number of people might vote unlawfully, their "efforts" will do little to solve that problem, and they will create even greater problems for everyone else who wants to vote. Anybody familiar with politics in general and with Karl Rove in particular will tell you that it's the slowdown they're after. Their goal is to decrease turnout, and I'm relieved that the courts have stood up for what's right.

Lebell · 11-01-2004, 10:06 AM

Is it really any worse than the Democrats suing to keep Nader off the ballot and challenging the signitures on his petitions?

This is the other side of the same coin.

alansmithee · 11-01-2004, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Is it really any worse than the Democrats suing to keep Nader off the ballot and challenging the signitures on his petitions?

This is the other side of the same coin.

I've always thought this as well. The Democrats are always saying they want everyone's vote to count. Apparently that is only if that is a vote for a Democrat candidate. Also, there have been documented cases of Democrats hassling Bush voters at polling places.

Personally, I don't even know if I care who wins at this point. They both suck, so let's pick one and get this stupid election over with. It seems more a joke than anything else.

Seaver · 11-01-2004, 10:57 AM

No kidding... this would really help those thousands of people who live and are registered Flordia who were found to also be registered to vote in Ohio. Or those unknown thousands who have criminal records and it's illegal to vote who managed to in 2000

No we cant have people who challenge others to uphold the law.

guy44 · 11-01-2004, 11:03 AM

Please. This prevents the intentional harassment of voters at polls for nothing more than the fact that they are living in traditionally democratic districts. The Republicans were forcing each person to essentially stand impromptu trial as they line up to vote, placing the burden of proof on their right to vote entirely on them.

This is essentially a reprise of Republican efforts in the 1960s to disenfranchise black voters in "Operation Eagle Eye."

daswig · 11-01-2004, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

Please. This prevents the intentional harassment of voters at polls for nothing more than the fact that they are living in traditionally democratic districts. The Republicans were forcing each person to essentially stand impromptu trial as they line up to vote, placing the burden of proof on their right to vote entirely on them.
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Dammit, you're right. People shouldn't be made to undergo the indignity of showing their ID and voter card to poll workers. Think of all the dead people and felons such a requirement would disenfranchise!!!

flstf · 11-01-2004, 11:12 AM

What the heck is the big deal here? If someone other than the election officials approaches you at the polls, just tell them to get lost. What enforcement powers would these citizens have? Can they keep you from voting, let them challange away.

guy44 · 11-01-2004, 11:48 AM

Um, daswig - you are already forced to show your ID and voter registration card when you vote. Republicans aren't enforcing that. They ARE individually challenging the legality of the registrations of each person, in order to slow down the line and disenfranchise as many traditionally democratic voters as humanly possible.

In certain states, flstf, people have the right to challenge voter's registrations at the polls. This is why it is a big deal - these Republican thugs CAN slow things down and cannot just be brushed off. At least, that is how it used to be before this decision.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 12:26 PM

Should democrats also be banned from contesting military ballots? It looks like some of us are only happy if Republican efforts to contest certain votes are barred.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

Um, daswig - you are already forced to show your ID and voter registration card when you vote.

Not here...here, you give them your name, they check their record, then you give them your address, and if it's correct, you are registered, and you haven't yet voted, you vote.

I can't remember the last time I saw my voter registration card....

pan6467 · 11-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Some of you truly need to be educated on what this was really in Ohio.

What these "republican" challengers were going to be allowed to do.

Here's the deal.

I go in and SHOW my ID and get my ballot. The GOP challengers then could look at my name and what I am registered as and decide I was not valid. (EVEN THOUGH I HAD SHOWN MY ID AND PROVEN I WAS WHO I AM AND AT THE RIGHT PRECINCT).

Now the GOP challenges my name (they can do so for ANY REASON), when I turn in my ballot it is taken, my name put on it and put into a pile. Then the person in charge of that precinct goes down the challenged list and decides with 2 witnesses 1 from each party and decides whose ballot is legit and whose isn't.

Those voters that were in doubt or had their ballots discarded through this process, WOULD NEVER KNOW THEIR VOTE WAS NOT COUNTED AS THE CHALLENGES REMAIN TOTALLY PRIVATE.

That's basically the gist. You can read the whole article in Friday's Plain Dealer.

Sorry, but to me that's fixing an election. The Dems were not allowed to do it, why just the GOP?????? Talk about election fixing bullshit.

So some of you GOP'ers who think this was funny and truly believe that Ohio should do this think what you would do if this happened where you lived and it was the Dems. being able to challenge.

This is just one of the many voter's issues that the GOP government in Columbus has sponsered and tried to get through. But even on the challengers issues Secretary of State Ken Blackwell (R) and other state GOP'ers were against. And Blackwell is the man that threw out 1000's of registrations simply because they were on the wrong paper. (And ooo btw he changed the paper requirement AFTER recieving the registrations.)

dksuddeth · 11-01-2004, 01:24 PM

The DNC and the RNC should be dismembered, disbanded, banned, outlawed, and finally put before the inquisition. Maybe THEN, we could get on with making the country greater.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

The DNC and the RNC should be dismembered, disbanded, banned, outlawed, and finally put before the inquisition. Maybe THEN, we could get on with making the country greater.

If we did that, then my Rabid Gerbil Party(tm) would reign supreme!!!

There's only one party I'd really support, but they too keep picking BAD candidates. I'm almost ready to vote for anarchy.

Redlemon · 11-01-2004, 01:33 PM

Thanks for the first-person report, pan6467. Do you have a link to that Plain Dealer writeup? And, I couldn't quite tell from your writeup; is your vote going to be counted or not?

Scipio · 11-01-2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Is it really any worse than the Democrats suing to keep Nader off the ballot and challenging the signitures on his petitions?

This is the other side of the same coin.

It certainly is different. Challenging the signatures on a completed petition doesn't impede a one day (and unrepeatable) process and prevent people who want to sign the petition legally from doing so. Petitions for all sorts of things are ALWAYS challenged. Petitions never have a 100% signature validity rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

Should democrats also be banned from contesting military ballots? It looks like some of us are only happy if Republican efforts to contest certain votes are barred.

Again, my gripe with the Republican efforts is not that I want illegal voters to put my guy in office. The essential problem with having republican party bosses looking over voters shoulders on election day is that it will slow down and inhibit the ability of legal voters to cast their vote.

Remember, the Republicans are doing this to decrease turnout, not to weed out the unlawful votes.

Finally, I challenge someone to find an instance of Democrats doing anything like this. Challenging petitions doesn't count. I'm talking about having people go to the polls and challenge voters with the intention of slowing down the process and decreasing turnout. I won't put up with arguments of "well your side does it too" until I see some evidence.

tspikes51 · 11-01-2004, 02:53 PM

For every Republican dick, there is a Democrat asshole.

flstf · 11-01-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Now the GOP challenges my name (they can do so for ANY REASON), when I turn in my ballot it is taken, my name put on it and put into a pile. Then the person in charge of that precinct goes down the challenged list and decides with 2 witnesses 1 from each party and decides whose ballot is legit and whose isn't.

I still don't understand what the big deal is. What are the chances your ballot will be tossed if you are legit? Let them challenge all they want.
Now I would be upset if they actually were tossing out valid votes.

Ustwo · 11-01-2004, 03:33 PM

Heaven forbid anyone challanges democrat voter fraud.

roachboy · 11-01-2004, 03:38 PM

please, ustwo: that is really beneath contempt.

Lebell · 11-01-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scipio

Finally, I challenge someone to find an instance of Democrats doing anything like this. Challenging petitions doesn't count. I'm talking about having people go to the polls and challenge voters with the intention of slowing down the process and decreasing turnout. I won't put up with arguments of "well your side does it too" until I see some evidence.

So is your argument that it is objectionable because the Republicans do it worse than the Democrats?

In any event, there have been well documented cases of voter fraud and ballot box stuffing by the democrats, a major example being the Zombies for Daley campaign in Chicago.

If you don't think the Democrats are as bad, then your eyes are intentionally closed.

pan6467 · 11-01-2004, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redlemon

Thanks for the first-person report, pan6467. Do you have a link to that Plain Dealer writeup? And, I couldn't quite tell from your writeup; is your vote going to be counted or not?

According to reports once challenged it is then up to the officials to determine your eligibility if they cannot your vote will not count.

For the article try http:www.cleveland.com

If you can't get it (since the PD is very choosy about what they put o/l) I can scan and send you the article, just let me know. I didn't want to scan and put on here as it is a very long article.

As for Nader not being on the ballot, it was brought about by GOP Sec. of State Blackwell. He questioned the authenticity of some registrations in Akron (HEAVY DEM. yet would not challenge any near Cincy.) It was Blackwell a GOP that chose to challenge Nader not the Dems.

Also, Blackwell refused to challenge ANY signatures on the petition regarding gay marriage even AFTER people claimed that they had gotten GOP thank yous and never signed the petition.

There is also the fact as i have repeatedly told on here that I recieved numerous GOP voter registration cards to mail in. Of the 5 only 2 had my name already on them.... the other 3 I could have made up names, addresses and used. Yet, they did not challenge any of these even though there were more GOP replies than the Dem. AFL/CIO that were challenged.

No, Ohio is very corrupt in heavy favor of the GOP.

If anyone cares to call me on it I will provide the newspaper articles dates, and pages. And if you truly want me top do all the work I'll scan them for you and mail them to ya.

Irishsean · 11-01-2004, 05:30 PM

Yay! The truth comes out, now the democrat thugs will have no competition! I swear to god, the majority of people that believe this "the other party are evil" bullshit are nothing but tools. Both parties are evil, manipulative whining babies who want nothing more than 4 years of candy and regular diaper changings. The sooner we can add more parties to the ballot with a chance of winning, the better.

Hwed · 11-01-2004, 05:33 PM

Yay! The dead can vote! This is important, because Democrats know better than you who should be president, and they should get more votes than they're entitled to, and to hell with the democratic process.

irateplatypus · 11-01-2004, 05:39 PM

fox news just reported 5 minutes ago that republican representatives will be allowed to supervise polling places.

tspikes51 · 11-01-2004, 05:50 PM

So if repubs can do it, demos can do it too. Fox is just Republican. Stop bitching. People who claim that one party cheats and another doesn't is just looking for something to complain about.

roachboy · 11-01-2004, 05:55 PM

how exactly is the american system is not a farce?

pan6467 · 11-01-2004, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tspikes51

So if repubs can do it, demos can do it too. Fox is just Republican. Stop bitching. People who claim that one party cheats and another doesn't is just looking for something to complain about.

Wrong answer in Ohio the only challengers that were ALLOWED to be at polling places were Republicans Dems are not allowed to have more than 2 people there (the 2 that by law have to work there, with the 2 GOP.) That's what the hoopla was about they weren't allowing Dems to have challengers.

How fair is that in supposed free and fair elections? To allow someone the right to stand there and challenge your vote and you have no idea so that you cannot even justify who you are?

Why don't we just do away with the charade of a vote and give Ohio outright to Bush?

And those of you who think this is whining ...... what you do? Because trust me if it works in Ohio it's coming to the rest of the country.

I just find it pathetic and a sad statement of where the USA is headed when our country has become so divided that one side feels this is an ok thing to do. It's supposed to be secret ballot anyway. For God's sake is there not one GOP person on this board that sees the hypocrasy of the party that claims to want less government and yet is treating Ohio like we're fucking some 3rd world nation?

Sad people very sad.

guy44 · 11-01-2004, 06:12 PM

The point isn't whether or not Democrats can do it as well as Republicans. The point is that it contributes to the breakdown of the election system and is completely amoral. Also, only Republicans do this because it is a stalling tactic: the goal isn't really to throw these votes out, or have certain people banned from voting. The goal is to slow down the lines at polling places to such an extent that voters who tend Democratic will give up and not vote because it takes too long. Since Republican voters tend to be wealthier and less likely to have to get back to work, get back to tend to kids who don't have a babysitter, etc., Democrats find this tactic relatively useless. That is the real point.

wnker85 · 11-01-2004, 06:15 PM

I do not see how this slows the process down and keeps people from voting.

It seems that everyone votes, and those that look fishy are looked at a lot closer and then it is decided if they are legit or not. No big deal. The system works.

I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to make sure my vote was legit. Because i know that I can vote. The only problem here is if you shouldn't be voting.

Mephisto2 · 11-01-2004, 06:46 PM

What do you mean "I do not see how this slows the process down"?

If there is a long long line, and each person is being challenged, then by definition the process has been slowed down.

What's there not to see?!

Mr Mephisto

pan6467 · 11-01-2004, 07:37 PM

It's not just the slow down, which I don't think will be that great. To me it's the afct that your ballot can be considered invalid without any true discrepancies, at the opposing party's discretion and you have no right or knowledge that your vote was taken away.

Using GOP representatives means that pretty much GOP areas will be the ones watched, so I guess if they have to that's better than ALL precincts.

tspikes51 · 11-01-2004, 08:38 PM

The Democrats have the right to do it too, not that it's right anyway, but it's still equal. Your vote WILL NOT be "blocked" or discounted legally by any party. That's just what you are led to believe. I'm kind of tired of hearing all the conspiracy theories surrounding this election, and I know that they will only intensify if Bush wins. I'm in a no-win situation here.

Lebell · 11-01-2004, 08:39 PM

I think I'll wait and see what the actual end result is before I complain.

I will say however that I think that all parties who have a candidate on the ballot should be allowed to have an "observer".

Scipio · 11-01-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

So is your argument that it is objectionable because the Republicans do it worse than the Democrats?

In any event, there have been well documented cases of voter fraud and ballot box stuffing by the democrats, a major example being the Zombies for Daley campaign in Chicago.

If you don't think the Democrats are as bad, then your eyes are intentionally closed.

Actually, my eyes are quite open, and I'm not seeing any Democratic voter fraud going on. My argument is that the Republicans are doing something un-American, and that nobody has shown me anything done by Democrats that can compare.

I googled for Zombies for Daley, and couldn't find anything. Perhaps you could direct me to some actual information about all the voter fraud my party is doing, cause I'd sure like to know about it.

Granted, it's not like Republican voter fraud, where you can read about it in most major newspapers, CNN, and the like.

Lebell · 11-01-2004, 08:52 PM

This was second from the top of a Google on "Chicago Daley Voter Fraud"

http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-6.htm

Seemed to give a nice overview of some famous Dem election frauds, certainly on par of worse than this.

Scipio · 11-01-2004, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

This was second from the top of a Google on "Chicago Daley Voter Fraud"

http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-6.htm

Seemed to give a nice overview of some famous Dem election frauds, certainly on par of worse than this.

Thanks for the link. However, it doesn't change my assertions about this election. The things that the Republicans are trying to do in Ohio simply aren't comparable to whatever it is the Democrats are doing. I suppose it's logical to assume that people in my party are bending the rules in some places, but like I said, nothing like what the Republicans seem to be doing on a national scale.

Besides, there's a moral issue here. Just because my side is doing, uh, something doesn't mean that what the Republicans are doing is ok.

pan6467 · 11-01-2004, 09:36 PM

I just think it pathetic that people think this is ok. I mean it's bullshit. There are people in this thread who claim there is too much government in things and yet they seem to be ok with this. And there are others who say don't worry about it.

Makes no sense. I mean we have both sides with lawyers ready to challenge the election. We have people ready to go postal against the other party. When and where does it end?

Every single one of the professors I deal with (GOP AND Dem) say this is the worst they have ever seen this country split. And we're talking Profs that were around during the 60's and they say that the 60's were nothing compared to this. What is frightening is we see it and know that this country is on the verge of SERIOUS political problems and noone wants to do anything but demand their side to be right.

I admit I am partisan and I am worried about Bush being reelected, but I am more worried about the outcome of this election. I seriously think we could see some riots and hostilities from the side that loses.

Both sides have set this election up so that no matter who wins and by what margin there is going to be problems. Both sides are ready to scream election fraud, the election was fixed and blah blah blah.

Whatever happened to doing what is best for the country and trying to keep it together? The partisanship has got to be controlled and compromises need to be reached, or we are going to have civil war or a massive loss of freedoms to prevent one.

Aw well you'll attack me and say I'm full of crap like you always do when I try to say we need to end partisan politics by saying I am too onesided and can't be taken seriously and nothing will be achieved because instead of looking for ways to compromise and bring the nation back together you'd rather be right and fuck anyone who disagrees with your opinions. You'd rather do what's best in your opinion and for yourself than what is best for the nation.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Whatever happened to doing what is best for the country and trying to keep it together? The partisanship has got to be controlled and compromises need to be reached, or we are going to have civil war or a massive loss of freedoms to prevent one.

The Democrats threw it away in the Senate when they voted right along party lines not to remove Clinton from office for committing perjury. He was guilty. Everybody knew it. His actions in lying to the grand jury and the american people were unequivocally criminal. The level of proof (a positive DNA match, along with testimony of one of the two participants, including a massive amount of verifiable detail) was high enough to get a conviction in virtually EVERY court in the country that didn't have a bias issue. If it had been anybody but President Bill Clinton, he'd have been convicted.

Nixon resigned because he knew that his party wouldn't back him when the truth came out. Clinton didn't even have THAT shred of decency in him, to resign for the good of both his party and the country.

I hope the Democrats think it was worth it to save his ass...because it sundered this country as surely as Secession in 1861 did. I truly believe that we're either going to see a dissolution of this country, or outright civil war. There's no other real option at this point. And it's going to be bloody when it comes.

Ustwo · 11-01-2004, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

I hope the Democrats think it was worth it to save his ass...because it sundered this country as surely as Secession in 1861 did. I truly believe that we're either going to see a dissolution of this country, or outright civil war. There's no other real option at this point. And it's going to be bloody when it comes.

I've had the same thoughts for a long time, though my time frame was 50 years before it comes to blood.

Socialism in the US will have to fail first.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I've had the same thoughts for a long time, though my time frame was 50 years before it comes to blood.

Socialism in the US will have to fail first.

I dunno...the vibe I'm getting is "we've got to act now, before we're in the gulag." And socialism in the US has ALREADY failed.

11-01-2004, 10:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Is it really any worse than the Democrats suing to keep Nader off the ballot and challenging the signitures on his petitions? This is the other side of the same coin. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-01-2004, 11:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	Please. This prevents the intentional harassment of voters at polls for nothing more than the fact that they are living in traditionally democratic districts. The Republicans were forcing each person to essentially stand impromptu trial as they line up to vote, placing the burden of proof on their right to vote entirely on them. This is essentially a reprise of Republican efforts in the 1960s to disenfranchise black voters in "Operation Eagle Eye." __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

11-01-2004, 11:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	Um, daswig - you are already forced to show your ID and voter registration card when you vote. Republicans aren't enforcing that. They ARE individually challenging the legality of the registrations of each person, in order to slow down the line and disenfranchise as many traditionally democratic voters as humanly possible. In certain states, flstf, people have the right to challenge voter's registrations at the polls. This is why it is a big deal - these Republican thugs CAN slow things down and cannot just be brushed off. At least, that is how it used to be before this decision. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

11-01-2004, 01:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Some of you truly need to be educated on what this was really in Ohio. What these "republican" challengers were going to be allowed to do. Here's the deal. I go in and SHOW my ID and get my ballot. The GOP challengers then could look at my name and what I am registered as and decide I was not valid. (EVEN THOUGH I HAD SHOWN MY ID AND PROVEN I WAS WHO I AM AND AT THE RIGHT PRECINCT). Now the GOP challenges my name (they can do so for ANY REASON), when I turn in my ballot it is taken, my name put on it and put into a pile. Then the person in charge of that precinct goes down the challenged list and decides with 2 witnesses 1 from each party and decides whose ballot is legit and whose isn't. Those voters that were in doubt or had their ballots discarded through this process, WOULD NEVER KNOW THEIR VOTE WAS NOT COUNTED AS THE CHALLENGES REMAIN TOTALLY PRIVATE. That's basically the gist. You can read the whole article in Friday's Plain Dealer. Sorry, but to me that's fixing an election. The Dems were not allowed to do it, why just the GOP?????? Talk about election fixing bullshit. So some of you GOP'ers who think this was funny and truly believe that Ohio should do this think what you would do if this happened where you lived and it was the Dems. being able to challenge. This is just one of the many voter's issues that the GOP government in Columbus has sponsered and tried to get through. But even on the challengers issues Secretary of State Ken Blackwell (R) and other state GOP'ers were against. And Blackwell is the man that threw out 1000's of registrations simply because they were on the wrong paper. (And ooo btw he changed the paper requirement AFTER recieving the registrations.) __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 11-01-2004 at 01:27 PM..

11-01-2004, 02:53 PM	#16 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	For every Republican dick, there is a Democrat asshole. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

11-01-2004, 10:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	No kidding... this would really help those thousands of people who live and are registered Flordia who were found to also be registered to vote in Ohio. Or those unknown thousands who have criminal records and it's illegal to vote who managed to in 2000 No we cant have people who challenge others to uphold the law.

11-01-2004, 11:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	What the heck is the big deal here? If someone other than the election officials approaches you at the polls, just tell them to get lost. What enforcement powers would these citizens have? Can they keep you from voting, let them challange away.

11-01-2004, 12:26 PM	#9 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	Should democrats also be banned from contesting military ballots? It looks like some of us are only happy if Republican efforts to contest certain votes are barred.

11-01-2004, 01:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	The DNC and the RNC should be dismembered, disbanded, banned, outlawed, and finally put before the inquisition. Maybe THEN, we could get on with making the country greater.

11-01-2004, 01:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	Thanks for the first-person report, pan6467. Do you have a link to that Plain Dealer writeup? And, I couldn't quite tell from your writeup; is your vote going to be counted or not?

11-01-2004, 03:33 PM	#18 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Heaven forbid anyone challanges democrat voter fraud. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-01-2004, 03:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	please, ustwo: that is really beneath contempt. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-01-2004, 05:30 PM	#22 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	Yay! The truth comes out, now the democrat thugs will have no competition! I swear to god, the majority of people that believe this "the other party are evil" bullshit are nothing but tools. Both parties are evil, manipulative whining babies who want nothing more than 4 years of candy and regular diaper changings. The sooner we can add more parties to the ballot with a chance of winning, the better. __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky

11-01-2004, 05:33 PM	#23 (permalink)
Hwed Tilted	Yay! The dead can vote! This is important, because Democrats know better than you who should be president, and they should get more votes than they're entitled to, and to hell with the democratic process.

11-01-2004, 05:39 PM	#24 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	fox news just reported 5 minutes ago that republican representatives will be allowed to supervise polling places. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-01-2004, 05:50 PM	#25 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	So if repubs can do it, demos can do it too. Fox is just Republican. Stop bitching. People who claim that one party cheats and another doesn't is just looking for something to complain about. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

11-01-2004, 05:55 PM	#26 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how exactly is the american system is not a farce? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-01-2004, 06:12 PM	#28 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	The point isn't whether or not Democrats can do it as well as Republicans. The point is that it contributes to the breakdown of the election system and is completely amoral. Also, only Republicans do this because it is a stalling tactic: the goal isn't really to throw these votes out, or have certain people banned from voting. The goal is to slow down the lines at polling places to such an extent that voters who tend Democratic will give up and not vote because it takes too long. Since Republican voters tend to be wealthier and less likely to have to get back to work, get back to tend to kids who don't have a babysitter, etc., Democrats find this tactic relatively useless. That is the real point. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

11-01-2004, 06:15 PM	#29 (permalink)
wnker85 Registered User	I do not see how this slows the process down and keeps people from voting. It seems that everyone votes, and those that look fishy are looked at a lot closer and then it is decided if they are legit or not. No big deal. The system works. I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to make sure my vote was legit. Because i know that I can vote. The only problem here is if you shouldn't be voting.

11-01-2004, 06:46 PM	#30 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	What do you mean "I do not see how this slows the process down"? If there is a long long line, and each person is being challenged, then by definition the process has been slowed down. What's there not to see?! Mr Mephisto

11-01-2004, 07:37 PM	#31 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	It's not just the slow down, which I don't think will be that great. To me it's the afct that your ballot can be considered invalid without any true discrepancies, at the opposing party's discretion and you have no right or knowledge that your vote was taken away. Using GOP representatives means that pretty much GOP areas will be the ones watched, so I guess if they have to that's better than ALL precincts. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

11-01-2004, 08:38 PM	#32 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	The Democrats have the right to do it too, not that it's right anyway, but it's still equal. Your vote WILL NOT be "blocked" or discounted legally by any party. That's just what you are led to believe. I'm kind of tired of hearing all the conspiracy theories surrounding this election, and I know that they will only intensify if Bush wins. I'm in a no-win situation here. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

11-01-2004, 08:39 PM	#33 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I think I'll wait and see what the actual end result is before I complain. I will say however that I think that all parties who have a candidate on the ballot should be allowed to have an "observer". __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-01-2004, 08:52 PM	#35 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	This was second from the top of a Google on "Chicago Daley Voter Fraud" http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-6.htm Seemed to give a nice overview of some famous Dem election frauds, certainly on par of worse than this. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-01-2004, 09:36 PM	#37 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I just think it pathetic that people think this is ok. I mean it's bullshit. There are people in this thread who claim there is too much government in things and yet they seem to be ok with this. And there are others who say don't worry about it. Makes no sense. I mean we have both sides with lawyers ready to challenge the election. We have people ready to go postal against the other party. When and where does it end? Every single one of the professors I deal with (GOP AND Dem) say this is the worst they have ever seen this country split. And we're talking Profs that were around during the 60's and they say that the 60's were nothing compared to this. What is frightening is we see it and know that this country is on the verge of SERIOUS political problems and noone wants to do anything but demand their side to be right. I admit I am partisan and I am worried about Bush being reelected, but I am more worried about the outcome of this election. I seriously think we could see some riots and hostilities from the side that loses. Both sides have set this election up so that no matter who wins and by what margin there is going to be problems. Both sides are ready to scream election fraud, the election was fixed and blah blah blah. Whatever happened to doing what is best for the country and trying to keep it together? The partisanship has got to be controlled and compromises need to be reached, or we are going to have civil war or a massive loss of freedoms to prevent one. Aw well you'll attack me and say I'm full of crap like you always do when I try to say we need to end partisan politics by saying I am too onesided and can't be taken seriously and nothing will be achieved because instead of looking for ways to compromise and bring the nation back together you'd rather be right and fuck anyone who disagrees with your opinions. You'd rather do what's best in your opinion and for yourself than what is best for the nation. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 11-01-2004 at 09:41 PM..