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Old 11-01-2004, 10:11 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
The Democrats threw it away in the Senate when they voted right along party lines not to remove Clinton from office for committing perjury. He was guilty. Everybody knew it. His actions in lying to the grand jury and the american people were unequivocally criminal. The level of proof (a positive DNA match, along with testimony of one of the two participants, including a massive amount of verifiable detail) was high enough to get a conviction in virtually EVERY court in the country that didn't have a bias issue. If it had been anybody but President Bill Clinton, he'd have been convicted.

Nixon resigned because he knew that his party wouldn't back him when the truth came out. Clinton didn't even have THAT shred of decency in him, to resign for the good of both his party and the country.

I hope the Democrats think it was worth it to save his ass...because it sundered this country as surely as Secession in 1861 did. I truly believe that we're either going to see a dissolution of this country, or outright civil war. There's no other real option at this point. And it's going to be bloody when it comes.

Hey share that LSD don't be greedy.

If you think Clinton's lie to protect himself and his family is any worse than Bush's lie to the american people which resulted in the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent people then you sir are on crack.

If I was standing before God and he was judging me i'd much rather tell him I cheated on my wife and then lied about it then tell him I lied so that I could kill thousands of innocent people.
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Old 11-01-2004, 10:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
If you think Clinton's lie to protect himself and his family is any worse than Bush's lie to the american people which resulted in the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent people then you sir are on crack.
Which Bush lie? The "lie" that Saddam still had WMDs? He did. I've yet to see any serious rebuttal on that. They are in their bunker, still under UN seal. See http://www.foia.cia.gov/duelfer/Iraqs_WMD_Vol3.pdf , page 78, top paragraph, right hand side of the page.

Clinton lied UNDER OATH. That's a criminal act, and it doesn't really matter what it was about. He swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, he didn't, and he got busted for it.
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Old 11-01-2004, 11:23 PM   #43 (permalink)
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You think the witch-hunt by Republicans on Clinton created [EDIT] as much dissension as the Civil War?

What planet are you on Daswing?! LOL


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Last edited by Mephisto2; 11-02-2004 at 12:38 AM..
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:18 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebell
I think I'll wait and see what the actual end result is before I complain.

I will say however that I think that all parties who have a candidate on the ballot should be allowed to have an "observer".
Appeals court has "stayed" both Federal Judges orders that barred Republican
poll monitors who challenge voter's eligibility, and, the Ohio Supreme Court
ruled that one monitor from each party may be present at each polling place:
Quote:
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/state/ohio/2004-11-02-ohio-challengers_x.htm">http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/state/ohio/2004-11-02-ohio-challengers_x.htm</a>
Posted 11/2/2004 1:45 AM Updated 11/2/2004 2:31 AM

Court clears way GOP reps to challenge voters' eligibility in Ohio
CINCINNATI (AP) — A federal appeals court has cleared the way for challengers to be present at polling places throughout Ohio, ruling early Tuesday that their presence on Election Day was allowed under state law.

A three-judge panel of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 to grant emergency stays of two federal judges' orders Monday that barred voter challengers from political parties. The judges also consolidated the two appeals, which stemmed from separate lawsuits in Cincinnati and Akron.

Alphonse Gerhardstein, attorney for the plaintiffs in the Cincinnati case, said early Tuesday that he appealed the 6th Circuit decision to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The federal appeals court said that while it's in the public interest that registered voters cast ballots freely, there is also "strong public interest in permitting legitimate statutory processes to operate to preclude voting by those who are not entitled to vote."

The judges also said that smooth and effective administration of the voting laws means that the rules can't be changed in the hours immediately preceding the election.

The dissent by Judge R. Guy Cole said the citizens of Ohio have the right to vote without the "threat of suppression, intimidation or chaos sown by partisan political operatives."

Cole said that partisan challengers are seeking to target precincts that have a majority black population, and that when "the fundamental right to vote without intimidation or undue burden is pitted against the rights of those seeking to prevent voter fraud ..." the court must err on the side of voters. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
.......................Also Monday, the Ohio Supreme Court clarified that political parties are allowed one challenger apiece for each precinct.

The GOP registered about 3,500 challengers, and Democrats say they've registered thousands but won't give a specific number.

Under state law, voters may be challenged on their citizenship, age or residency. Poll workers generally would challenge someone if his or her signature didn't match the one in the poll book, or if the poll worker recognized the individual as someone who didn't belong in that precinct.

Republicans have said they plan to check names of voters against lists of absentee ballots and of people who have died recently.
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:55 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
The Democrats threw it away in the Senate when they voted right along party lines not to remove Clinton from office for committing perjury. He was guilty. Everybody knew it. His actions in lying to the grand jury and the american people were unequivocally criminal. The level of proof (a positive DNA match, along with testimony of one of the two participants, including a massive amount of verifiable detail) was high enough to get a conviction in virtually EVERY court in the country that didn't have a bias issue. If it had been anybody but President Bill Clinton, he'd have been convicted.
If it had been anybody but a democrat, Scaife would not have orchestrated
the harassment and manipulation in the first place.........
(Remember the "shove it" sound bite against Teresa H. Kerry last summer?
Just a preview of the war Scaife has planned against the Kerrys if John wins.)
Quote:
More About Pittsburgh Editor in Dustup with Heinz Kerry
<a href="http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000585871">http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000585871</a>
Heinz Kerry and McNickle had a verbal confrontation at a campaign event on Sunday night, with the wife of Sen. John Kerry disputing something McNickle said or wrote, and telling him to "shove it."

In a column on July 17, McNickle wrote: "John Kerry and John Edwards, two Johns pimping for a populism that can only perpetuate poverty, haven't a clue. Now there's a campaign theme, eh?" In the same column he observed: "Liberals and socialists (is there a difference?) probably are nodding their heads vigorously about now. 'Yeah, that's the ticket! Go, Johnny, Go!'"
Quote:
Published: August 02, 2004 12:01 AM EST
<a href="http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000590838">http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000590838</a>
NEW YORK Colin McNickle, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review staffer asked by Teresa Heinz Kerry to "shove it" last Sunday, now contends that in the aftermath of that widely-reported incident liberals "did their best to demonize not only me but the Trib." ......
........<h3>
The Tribune-Review, owned by Richard Mellon Scaife, was often accused last week of being a right-wing "rag,".......
...As editorial page editor and columnist at his newspaper, McNickle has often harshly criticized the Kerrys.</h3>
Quote:
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaifemain050299.htm">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaifemain050299.htm</a>
<h4>Scaife: Funding Father of the Right</h4>
By Robert G. Kaiser and Ira Chinoy
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, May 2, 1999; Page A1

First of two articles

One August day in 1994, while gossiping about politics over lunch on Nantucket, Richard Mellon Scaife, the Pittsburgh billionaire and patron of conservative causes, made a prediction. "We're going to get Clinton," Joan Bingham, a New York publisher present at the lunch, remembers him saying. "And you'll be much happier," he said to Bingham and another Democrat at the table, "because Al Gore will be president."

Bingham was startled at the time, but in the years since – as Clinton has struggled with an onslaught from political enemies – Scaife's assertion came to seem less and less far-fetched.

Scaife did get involved in numerous anti-Clinton activities. He gave $2.3 million to the American Spectator magazine to dig up dirt on Clinton and supported other conservative groups that harassed the president and his administration. The White House and its allies responded by fingering Scaife as the central figure in "a vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for president," as Hillary Rodham Clinton described it. James Carville, Clinton's former campaign aide and rabid defender, called Scaife "the archconservative godfather in [a] heavily funded war against the president."

But people who know him well say that although Scaife is fond of conspiracy theories of many kinds, he is incapable of managing any sort of grand conspiracy himself. And months of reporting produced no evidence of his orchestrating any effort to "get" Clinton beyond his financial support. Indeed, focusing on his role in the crusade against Clinton can obscure the 66-year-old philanthropist's real importance, which is not based on his opposition or support for any individual politicians (though he once gave Richard M. Nixon $1 million). His biggest contribution has been to help fund the creation of the modern conservative movement in America.

By compiling a computerized record of nearly all his contributions over the last four decades, The Washington Post found that Scaife and his family's charitable entities have given at least $340 million to conservative causes and institutions – about $620 million in current dollars, adjusted for inflation. The total of Scaife's giving – to conservatives as well as many other beneficiaries – exceeds $600 million, or $1.4 billion in current dollars, much more than any previous estimate. ..........

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaifemain050299b.htm">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaifemain050299b.htm</a>
It is tempting to speculate that the routinization of Scaife's role might have prompted him – or his key aide, Larry – to get involved in more adventuresome anti-Clinton activities. Their involvement in what became known as "the Arkansas Project" – an aggressive and ultimately fruitless attempt to discredit a sitting president – marked a clear departure from years of relatively anonymous philanthropy, and Scaife could not have foreseen the consequences: He became a celebrity.

The full realization of the trouble he had made for himself probably came one day last September when he appeared, under subpoena, before a federal grand jury in Fort Smith, Ark., that was investigating possible tampering with a federal witness. On that day, Scaife could have felt he was being treated like a suspect – not the status a Mellon from Pittsburgh worth perhaps a billion dollars expects. According to several associates, Scaife was furious.

The Arkansas Project was apparently cooked up largely by Larry, 63, who has worked for Scaife for 30 years. A former Marine with a deeply ideological view of the world, Larry had developed a powerful dislike for Clinton. "I noticed a change in Dick Larry – at the mention of Clinton he became almost hyperthyroid," said one prominent figure in the conservative world who knows Larry well. A second prominent conservative close to him said: "I never saw Dick Larry do anything like this before. The only thing I can figure is that Larry dislikes Clinton intensely."

As the chief administrative officer of Scaife's philanthropies for many years and the main contact for anyone seeking a grant, Larry has long been a controversial figure among conservatives. They discuss him with the same reluctance to go on the record that many demonstrate when Scaife is the subject. "Sometimes [Larry] makes you wonder if it is the Richard Scaife foundations, or the Richard Larry foundations," said one source who worked with both men.

In his written answers to questions from The Post, Scaife attributed his support for the project to his doubts that "The Washington Post and other major newspapers would fully investigate the disturbing scandals of the Clinton White House." He explained those doubts: "I am not alone in feeling that the press has a bias in favor of Democratic administrations." That is why, he continued, "I provided some money to independent journalists investigating these scandals."

The Arkansas Project itself relied on several private detectives, a former Arkansas state police officer and other unlikely schemers, including a bait shop owner in Hot Springs, Ark. The two men running the project were a lawyer and a public relations man. Scaife's role became the subject of a special federal investigation because of accusations that the money he donated ended up in the pocket of David Hale, a former Clinton associate and convicted defrauder of the Small Business Administration who had become a witness for Starr's investigation of the president.

Sources at the American Spectator say it was Larry who played an instrumental role in the project. But there is no doubt that Clinton had gotten under Scaife's skin.

Scaife's penchant for conspiracy theories – a bent of mind he has been drawn to for years, according to many associates – was stimulated by the death of Vincent W. Foster Jr., Hillary Clinton's former law partner and a deputy White House counsel. He has repeatedly called Foster's death "the Rosetta stone to the Clinton administration" (a reference to the stone found in Egypt that allowed scholars to decipher ancient hieroglyphics).

Last fall Scaife told John F. Kennedy Jr. of George magazine, "Once you solve that one mystery, you'll know everything that's going on or went on – I think there's been a massive coverup about what Bill Clinton's administration has been doing, and what he was doing when he was governor of Arkansas." And he had ominous specifics in mind: "Listen, [Clinton] can order people done away with at his will. He's got the entire federal government behind him." And: "God, there must be 60 people [associated with Bill Clinton] – who have died mysteriously."

Even before the Arkansas Project had gotten underway, Scaife personally hired a former New York Post reporter named Christopher Ruddy to write about Foster's death for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, the daily newspaper Scaife has owned since 1969. Ruddy's stories about Foster's death – most of them challenging the suicide theory, without offering an alternative explanation – began to appear in January 1995.

Scaife has funded other Clinton efforts as well: Two zealous and resourceful (and rival) public interest law firms that have pursued Clinton and his administration relentlessly, the Landmark Legal Foundation and Judicial Watch, have received more than $4 million from Scaife. Judicial Watch, which is aggressively suing several branches of the government and has questioned numerous White House officials under oath, has received $1.35 million from Scaife sources in the last two years, a large fraction of its budget.
<b>
The Fund for Living American Government (FLAG), a one-man philanthropy run by William Lehrfeld, a Washington tax lawyer who has represented Scaife in the past, gave $59,000 to Paula Jones's sexual harassment suit against Clinton. FLAG has received at least $160,000 in Scaife donations. And lawyers who belong to the conservative Federalist Society, which has enjoyed Scaife support for 15 years (at least $1.5 million), were members of a secretive group who provided important legal advice to Paula Jones and who may have pulled off the key legal maneuver in the Clinton case by connecting the Jones suit and the Starr investigation.</b>

Officers of the Scaife-supported Independent Women's Forum have appeared on many television programs as Clinton critics. William J. Bennett, author of "Death of Outrage: Bill Clinton and the Assault on American Ideals," is on the board of the Sarah Scaife Foundation, and has received Scaife support as a fellow of the Heritage Foundation and other enterprises.
<b>
One of the most publicized allegations of a tie between Scaife and Clinton's enemies was the suggestion that Scaife was trying to set up independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr in a posh deanship at Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. Starr briefly toyed with accepting the job early in 1997.

Scaife has been a generous supporter of Pepperdine, donating more than $13 million since 1962 (in personal gifts as well as foundation grants), according to the school. But Scaife and the current president of Pepperdine, David Davenport, both have said that Scaife played no role whatsoever in the offer to Starr. Scaife and Starr have said they don't know each other, and have never met.</b>

Only the Arkansas Project has caused Scaife serious trouble. The possibility that money from the project had tainted Hale, a federal witness, led to the appointment of Michael J. Shaheen, a former senior Justice Department official, as a special investigator. It was Shaheen who summoned Scaife to the Fort Smith grand jury.

Shaheen's investigation apparently is complete. Lawyers involved said they don't expect any indictments.

One result of the enterprise was to strain Scaife's relationship with Larry almost to the breaking point. "He almost fired Larry," said one friend.

The other result has been the emergence of Scaife as a public figure and punching bag for liberals.

"I'm a very private person – I think I'm essentially shy," Scaife told Kennedy last fall. But now, he acknowledged, he is recognized by passersby on the street – "thanks to CNN."
And......in April, 2004, guess who showed up in Malibu ???
Quote:
<a href="http://www.abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/040604ap_nw_starr_pepperdine.html">http://www.abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/040604ap_nw_starr_pepperdine.html</a>
Kenneth Starr Named Dean Of Pepperdine Law School
Apr. 6 (AP) — Kenneth W. Starr, who led the investigation into President Clinton's relationship with Monica Lewinsky, has been named dean of the Pepperdine University School of Law, an official said Monday.

Starr first accepted the position seven years ago but changed his mind after he was criticized for abandoning the Whitewater investigation into the Clintons' real estate dealings.

..........Starr's appointment was embroiled in controversy because of financial assistance the school got from Richard Mellon Scaife, a persistent critic of Clinton. Democrats charged that Starr had a financial and political conflict with the dean's chair. The university said that Scaife had no part in the dean selection.
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Old 11-02-2004, 01:01 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Look

Repub. or Dem. it dont matter.

I just hope that ONLY legal voters can vote.

LEGAL is the word missing too often from democratic pundits on TV.

" We want every vote counted"
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Old 11-02-2004, 08:42 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daswig
I hope the Democrats think it was worth it to save his ass...because it sundered this country as surely as Secession in 1861 did. I truly believe that we're either going to see a dissolution of this country, or outright civil war. There's no other real option at this point. And it's going to be bloody when it comes.
I hope you are wrong, but if a split does come, I don't think the gun-controlled city folks have much of a chance against the heartland. Hopefully the split will be peaceful (at least as peaceful as Russia's was recently). Probably will break up into two different countries, the free America of the heartland and the socialist America of the populous coasts.
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:00 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flstf
Hopefully the split will be peaceful (at least as peaceful as Russia's was recently). Probably will break up into two different countries, the free America of the heartland and the socialist America of the populous coasts.
Soviet Union, you surely mean. Wouldn't the socialist America of the populous coasts have immense economical advantage in the moment of this separation?
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:34 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktjabr
Soviet Union, you surely mean. Wouldn't the socialist America of the populous coasts have immense economical advantage in the moment of this separation?
Of course this is just idle speculation, probably. Yes, just like the North had it over the South in our last civil war. I just don't believe the city folks have the will to fight like the rural areas. If they do it could get bloody, but hopefully they would throw in the towell early on. Also it would take an economic collapse or great depression to bring this on, and the folks on the farm will have food, LOL.
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:35 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:

Overturning the orders of two federal judges, a three-judge panel of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 early Tuesday that the presence of Election Day challengers was allowed under state law. It granted emergency stays that will allow Republicans and Democrats one challenger per precinct each.
So amazingly the state law is upheld and the judges are not allowed to re-write it based on biased political whim.
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Old 11-02-2004, 11:52 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
So amazingly the state law is upheld and the judges are not allowed to re-write it based on biased political whim.
Yeah.....states rights upheld.....too bad the 5 SCOTUS justices ignored
that principle when they overruleed the Florida Supreme Court by interfering
with its recount order in Gore v Bush !
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:22 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Yeah.....states rights upheld.....too bad the 5 SCOTUS justices ignored
that principle when they overruleed the Florida Supreme Court by interfering
with its recount order in Gore v Bush !
Four years later and we're STILL on this??
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Old 11-02-2004, 01:12 PM   #53 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Yeah.....states rights upheld.....too bad the 5 SCOTUS justices ignored
that principle when they overruleed the Florida Supreme Court by interfering
with its recount order in Gore v Bush !
The chief justice of the Florida supreme court said they would be over ruled because he could see that the court was acting in a non-constitutional manner.

He was a democrat too.

Fancy that.
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