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Greatest American
The BBC ran a very entertaining and educational series a couple of years ago with a view to identifying the Greatest Briton of all time. You can check the show's website here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/program...tbritons.shtml
In an attempt to get away from the factional bickering on this board as the election draws nearer, I was wondering if people would be interested in a thread that discussed the Greatest American of all time. Chances are politicians will make up a high number of nominations, so I'm posting this thread on this board. However, don't let that stop you from suggesting industrialists, military men (or women), scientists etc. Personally, I feel there shall be some easy choices for the top 5 at least. These will probably include Abraham Lincoln Thomas Edison Ulysses S Grant Dwight D Eisenhower Thomas Jefferson John F Kennedy and so on. My nomination is Abraham Lincoln, probably the best President the US has ever had. The reasons should be obvious, but I shall list some of the more notable. - He was a great leader during the countries most dangerous time. - He was a politician who accepted he did not represent all Americans, but reached out to try to "save the Union." - He alone (until US Grant) understood the gravity of the Civil War and what it would take to win it. - He emancipated the slaves. - He wrote some of the most moving, and still relevant, speeches in American political history. - He was the master of the pithy remark. Some interesting reading can be found at the following sites: http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html (I find it surprising that Lynne Cheney's bio is linked off Lincoln's! But let's not get off topic) http://www.historyplace.com/lincoln/ http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln.html http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton/Lincoln2.html Who would you nominate and why? And if you disagree with my suggestion, please give reasons. Here's hoping for a non-partisan, interesting thread in these stressful times... Mr Mephisto |
Lincoln, yeah - the greatest President, by far. He's essentially mythological at this point.
Other great American's: Benjamin Franklin, the greatest politician. Grand Master Flash Ted Williams The pizza cook at Brothers Pizza just outside Philly. Though he may be an Italian national. Tom Waits Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X The guy that first started distributing Ketel One vodka maybe not in that order ... |
Ahh... but you've got to pick one and give some reasons.
That's half the fun and is educational for the rest of us. :) Mr Mephisto |
The pizza cook at Brothers Pizza just ouside Philly.
Man he could throw down some damn good pizza. For real, this guy was no joke. |
Babe Ruth. He was the greatest American of his time, and probably all time. His story is legend and his myth is bigger than anyone in American culture. People who do great things are said to have completed a Ruthian feat. Nobody has ever been as ubiquitously followed in the U.S. Perhaps a different definition of "great" has to be used for him, but I think he counts.
I also think, in a more traditional way, FDR needs to be mentioned. |
Interesting stat about Babe Ruth - He hit more homeruns in one year than any other team, all players combined. And he did this twice.
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The Greatest American of all time was a baseball player?!
Well, I can't say I expected that nomination. :) Spoiler: I wonder how long before someone nominates Bush? We need reasons people! Please let them. Mr Mephisto |
The answer is quite clear:
http://www.leenite.org/jonisland/graphics/jon~leno.jpg above all others there is only Lovitz I would say Mark Twain-Samuel Clemmons but I'm too tired to defend that choice at the moment. |
in addition to mark twain:
nathaniel west dalton trumbo orson welles thomas pynchon djuna barnes gertrude stein the greatest americans are those who oppose everything about america. in the main, you do not hear much about them |
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i hear variations of this from my most liberal aquaintainces. at best i feel the sentiment is hackneyed, at worst damaging. Abraham Lincoln - easily my top choice for the reasons listed above Honorable Mention: Dwight D. Eisenhower George Washington Thomas Jefferson Nathan Hale Ronald Reagan Thomas Paine Frederick Douglas Teddy Roosevelt John Glenn |
Canada (the CBC) is actually running a progam that mirrors the BBC one from a few years ago. http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/standings/
I know not many Americans will know who's who on this list, with the one noteable exception of Gretzky, but it's a motherfuckin' tragedy that Don Cherry is even listed. Anyway, you can now go back to your greatest American thread, I'm going to start a new thread in the Canada Forum. |
Do you people realize that Abraham Lincoln never cared about freeing the slaves?
I would say that the greatest American is one who risks his/her life to give us the freedoms that we take for granted on a daily basis. I also have a lot of respect for guys like Malcolm X who were willing to sacrifice themselves to advance their cause. Who hear has read his "Ballot Or The Bullet" speech? It's too bad that he was a racist for most of his life and that no one really remembers the end of his life when he renounced his racist past. |
don cherry the trumpet player? or the hockey coach? or another don cherry?
irate: if you understand that the best thing about america is the tradition of dissent, then there is nothing either hackneyed or damaging about it. unless you dislike that tradition for some reason, in which case your objection can be reduced to an aesthetic one. lincoln is easier to endorse as the finest american if you do not actually read his speeches--check out the debates with john calhoun over the question of slavery (0if you have not) and see if you still think lincoln was the best the americans have done. i would take any of the folk on my list over him in a minute. |
I will nominate Stephen Hawking....but the reasons will not be clear for a couple decades.
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Something I could never understand is how people think Lincoln was the greatest president ever. He wasn't about freeing the slaves, he was about keeping the Union together and practically threw away the US constitution to do so. Lincoln was probably one of the WORST presidents because of this.
Greatest american ever, in my opinion, would be FDR. Pulled the country out of the depression using extremely orthodox methods and helped fight tyranny in europe during WW2. Follow that with Truman, the man had balls of Steel to drop the bomb, twice, and take full responsibility for the decision. |
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don't forget that lovitz played a particular religoius fellow of some distinction on SNL... i think his greatness transcends national boundries... :D |
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Bush flip-flops on Iraq Bush thinks God wants him as President US Deficit Graph Do you EVER listen to or accept a story from the "other side"? Soldier files suit to avoid Iraq tour CIA broke the Geneva Conventions... again Bush predicted no casualties Anti Kerry film cut Interesting article on Afghanistan Iran endorses Bush Anti-Kerry film backlash for Sinclair So who do you think won the third debate? Rumsfeld admits no link between Saddam and Al Queda US reports finds that Iraq had no WMD Don't tax the rich says Bush - WTF?! US Intelligence report on Iraq Let's jump on the band wagon!! Or is it gravy train? Now this is scary... Why I believe Bush will win You're quite the enigma, mephisto! :lol: |
Now, Now...lets play nice
I was rather hoping for a non-partisan thread as well |
Greatest American? Why, Willam Katz, of course. He was the Greatest American Hero at the very least.
http://www.tvtome.com/images/shows/0/5/86-9433-sm.jpg |
How about Thomas Alva Edison?
For Presidents, FDR is the obvious choice. Believe it or not, cthulu, it's just me. |
why edison? because of the incandescent light bulb?
if you are thinking in terms of people who have developed either objects or processing for producing them that have greatly influenced the way of life now, you probably would have to include henry ford in there. for the assembly line. for pioneering consumer credit for the logic of high-wage jobs for working people. but he was also a scumbag. so i dont know. the more i think about this, the more confused i get about the criteria for "greatness" |
Dave Chapelle, obviously.
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His dealing with his ALS is an inspiration in and of itself. One problem. He's a brit! |
Einstein over Hawking if you are going to go that way.
Twain over all others if you are going to go that way. (nathaniel west, dalton trumbo, orson welles, thomas pynchon, djuna barnes, gertrude stein???) Carlin over Chapelle if you are going to go that way. If you are serious about it, Grant and Kennedy don't make the list. Irateplatypus has a good list, but the top two should be: James Madison--Father of the Constitution (18th Century) Lincoln--preserver of the Union (19th Century) Honorable mention to MLK--(20th Century). Any 21st Century nominations? (Bono is not an American). |
Uh, not to nitpick, but Einstein and Hawking are not American, yes?
Here's my vote: http://www.suprmchaos.com/bill-hicks_061503.jpg |
Or how about:
http://www.cmsaunders.free-online.co...cs/chomsky.jpg "... arguably the most important intellectual alive." -NY Times |
I'm going to nominate Mark Twain.
Personally I think Lincoln is overrated. |
Guess I was just Wishing Hawking was American.......
All right....Carl Sagan Got me interested in science as a kid.....very inspiring |
roachboy,
i whole heartedly agree with you that one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) thing about America is the tradition of dissent. however, i believe the credit goes to those who love the American ideal enough to tolerate those who oppose her... not to those in opposition. if you endure the dissention of others, that is is what makes a great American. it takes no courage or greatness to step on toes, it does take greatness to have the crushing of your own toes taken with grace and civility. |
FDR.
But then, he came after Hoover, a perfect example of ineptitute. Sounds like a foreshadowing of events to come. |
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It's nice to be the target of such a blatant troll. If you actually read them (the ones you cherry picked there mate), you will see that unlike a lot of the Kerry supporters here, I explicitly, repeatedly and consistently state that I do not "hate Bush", that I believe he is supported by intelligent people, that lots of what Kerry stands for is debatable, that no one is perfect. I always so others respect and enjoy debating with them. The basis for this thread, is to start a non-partisan, non-political debate... Something on the politics board that doesn't focus on the election. A "break" if you will. I find it amusing you miss the entire point. If you have a problem with my threads, please refrain from posting or reading them. If you have something to contribute here, please play along. Mr Mephisto PS - I won't even start with actually analyzing my threads and asking how they are partisan. You will note that most of them begin with a news item and then ask others to debate or discuss the item. Yeah... I'm really a rampant political animal who has hidden agendas.... Good grief. PPS - did you actually READ any or all of those threads? For example, the one "Do you EVER listen to the other side" was absolutely non-partisan and was soliciting negative comments about the reader's "own sides"... You miss the entire point. Political debate, by its very nature, is biased to a certain degree |
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;) My favorite, great Americans are the Three Stooges, as they suceeded so brilliantly at making people laugh. |
Lincoln sure couldn't pick a general, but he was a great American.
For the greatest American, I'd choose Thomas Jefferson, because he was so forward-thinking. He wrote the Declaration of Indepencence so well, especially the part "all men are created equal," implying that slaves were people too. He was against slavery, and freed his slaves when he died. As president, he funded the Lewis and Clark missions, encouraging our spread into the rest of the continent. The Louisiana Purchase was such a bargain, and France was glad to give it to us. He founded the University of Virginia. Jefferson really pushed us forward from his role in America. |
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Or are you trying to pass a value judgement on the quality of people's contribution to TFP? I apologised for an unwarranted snide comment. To be honest I don't expect the same from you. Quote:
Mr Mephisto |
if edison is a great american, then--seriously---why not henry ford?
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He just wasn't a nice guy. Mr Mephisto |
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i think you'll find that most people who acheive "greatness" were not nice people. luck and circumstance may allow the nice guy to become great at times, but many who make themselves great do it by stepping on those beneath them. |
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That's a fair comment. But some of them are more "not nicer" than others... if you know what I mean. :) Let's take Lincoln. He wasn't perfect, but I don't believe he had a bad bone in his body. He certainly did not stomp all over people like Ford. Kennedy, on the other hand, is often described as a great American, yet he was a liar, a philanderer and (some could argue) brought the world close to nuclear war. Good and bad. Two sides of the same coin. Mr Mephisto |
Grand Master Flash was a nice guy.
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Al Gore.
Inventor of the internet. Free porn. All the time. And because without him the last 4 years wouldn't have been quite as interesting. There's too many Americans that were great to choose just one. Personally I'd take Lincoln off of the list because he was a divider who got shot at the opportune time. JFK's life was too short to really see what would've come out of his presidency and that's something very regrettable. I'd like to say FDR for his leadership during WWII and through the great depression. |
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Too many to mention and no real standout. Maybe FDR - after the great depression, Lincoln - president during our darkest hours, Eisenhower - fantastic post war economic expansion in the 50s. Many of the founding fathers.
Don't know how much these guys had to do with the results of the times. But with the exception of the founding fathers, I think the great experiment of American democracy has lasted this long mostly in spite of our leaders and not because of them. |
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(pulling out my big honkin book of Lincoln quotes) Here's one for you, Mephisto... Quote:
Or, how's this on race relations? Source: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm First Lincoln-Douglas debate Quote:
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Sounds like quite the White Supremacist, doesn't he? The Emancipation Proclaimation was a tool to use against the South during the war. You'll remember that NORTHERN slaves had to wait for the ratification of the 13th Amendment to be freed...which happened well AFTER Lincoln's death. Or how about Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeus corpus in 1861, and his imprisonment of a decent chunk of Maryland's legislature in Fort McHenry? Let me ask you this...what would you think if Bush had filled Gitmo with Congresscritters who opposed the war? Because that's pretty much what Lincoln did. The Supreme Court said basically "You can't do that, that's unconstitutional!" in U.S. v. Merryman, issuing a writ ordering the release of the imprisoned lawmakers. Lincoln's response? He ignored it and left them in jail. Eventually Congress passed a law giving him that power....but only AFTER he'd already purged everybody that disagreed with him (like Vallandigham). So, I guess Lincoln has some problems as far as considering him the greatest American...unless, of course, Julius Caesar was the greatest "president" of the Roman Empire... |
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Lincoln was a petty tyrant. |
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Lincoln would not be acceptable to many republicans if they knew more about
his sexual orientation. Here are some excerpts from the 2004 North Carolina Republican Party Platform; as an example............ Quote:
named Joshua Speed. Poet Carl Sandburg did not hide this side of Lincoln in his Lincoln biography, "The Prarie Years"....... Quote:
for the true genius of his inventions.........Edison got the credit for electrifying the U.S. in the late 19th century, but it was Nikola Tesla who designed and built the practical AC electrical generation and distribution system that won out over Edison's unworkable DC current design. In the 1940's, Tesla finally was acknowledged as the first to patent wireless radio, not Marconi ! Quote:
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in view of the way his contributions changed the lives of so many people, that he be considered "Greatest American". |
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http://www.civilwarhome.com/vallandighambio.htm Quote:
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If I had to pick just one American as the "Greatest American", I'd have to go with Teddy Roosevelt. He turned the US from a provincial power into a world power, and did it while fighting corruption at all levels and not violating the Constitution.
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George W. Bush
1. He's the most honest and up front president we've had in the past 30 years. 2. He got rid of Saddam. This is a good thing because Saddam was about to create weapons of mass destruction to use against those who love freedom. 3. The war on terror will totally eradicate all freedom-haters across the globe. Re: 2 and 3, I love my freedom. I don't want people to hate me because I'm free! I don't want to die by a WMD! 4. He has a clear and concise plan for everything. These can be viewed at http://www.georgewbush.com/ If that isn't the greatest american, then I don't know what is! |
THIS is why I wouldn't consider GW Bush one of the greatest americans.
from the article: In an act that foreshadowed the future Bush II administration's astonishing usurpation of liberties, the Bush owners created the Arlington Sports Facility Development Authority. The Development Authority was granted the right to issue bonds along with the ominous power of eminent domain. This unnecessarily granted power was immediately abused as the Development Authority condemned 12.7 prime real estate acres adjacent to the construction site that was situated near Six Flags Amusement Park. Eminent domain was only enforced after the owners refused the Development Authority's low-ball bid of $817,220. This outrage prompted a court case in which the jury awarded the landowners heirs $7.2 million for the purchase cost of the land plus interest. |
Yeah but... he's protecting us from the freedom-haters! Isn't it important that you keep your freedom?!
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(I know, I was being sarcastic ;))
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gotcha, :thumbsup:
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Homer Simpson?????
Thats what the world thinks?? I dont know whether I should be laughing or disturbed. My vote goes for Neil Armstrong. |
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With regards to Lincoln's position on slavery, there have been literally hundreds of books written on the man and many on this specific subject. Just two examples. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books If you want to use quotations from Lincoln on slavery, how about these? Quote:
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I could go on and on. I think you need to read that book of Lincoln quotations a bit more carefully. Mr Mephisto |
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What about Henry Ford? The guy who helped to finance Hitler's rise to power, donated $40,000 (not adjusted for inflation) to print German translations of anti-semitic pamphlets, kept his Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle despite the protests of Jewish froups like the ADL until he died in 1947, and owned a newspaper that published such pieces fo propaganda as The International Jew and The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion? That guy was a great American? |
It seems like all the "great" American's have skeletons either in their closet or hanging on their front porch.
Except Grand Master Flash. :thumbsup: |
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Wow, this thread started out asking for Great Americans and almost every one that folks listed has been trashed by others. I guess it goes to show how difficult it is to live a public life and not have held some beliefs that seem so politically incorrect in modern times. No matter how progressive and bold thay may have been in their time.
So I guess I'll change my vote to Harley and Davidson, who started the company that makes the machine that gives me so much pleasure today, LOL. |
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I do not know his name but the greatest American was the son of an immigrant who worked hard his whole life and brought is family to the next level his children were the first in there family to graduate collage and they (the children) made shore to pass on the values of there father that served them so well.
All the people discussed so far were grate leaders and athletes but any truly grate American will always be anonymous that is the American way. Edit: I could have the gender all wrong but the piont stands. |
A big part of the issue is what makes someone 'Great'.
Were they a Great American because without them America would have failed as a nation? or were they are Great American because they embodied the American Ideal? For the first, it would have to be Abraham Lincoln. While any of the founding fathers also fall into this category, Lincoln faced the first real challenge where if he failed the US would cease to exist as the US. For the second, it would be Teddy Roosevelt. He was everything an American should be, his life couldn't have been written any more 'American' then it was. |
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But if being Great means being 'uncommonly good' then the people you speak of, who number in the millions do not count, they are average, and luckly in the US average is pretty damn good compared to most. |
not to be cliche, but Martin Luther King Jr.
As far as an inventor-type person, by far Nikola Tesla. He's the most underrated inventor in history as far as I'm concerned, and 1000x more important than Edison when it comes to electricity. If people had listened to him more we would have advanced much faster in electrical technology and safety. As for the Lincoln debate, he was a great man and president, yes. I do agree with this. He learned over time to control his temper in a manner very few do. However, he was not the great president the myth makes him out to be. One must keep in mind that due to the circumstances of the civil war he pretty much had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with the government. |
I can't believe only one person here said Thomas Jefferson, you people are crazy! I remember
reading a quote recently about when one of our Presidents gathered 40-some Nobel Prize laureates at the White House, and remarked that the White House had never had as many brilliant minds in it at one time than it did right now, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson worked alone. The guy was a Jack of All Trades, but was more than likely a Master of all of those Trades. The man was not only one of the pre-eminent founding father, but probably loved his country more than anyone else at the time, and tried his damndest to make it the best it could be in its early years. Not only that, but the people of France also loved him, being that he was Ambassador there for many years after the Revolutionary War. Tried many times to outlaw slavery during his days as a Congressman in the Virginia Congress - among many of the other things he did for us. Teddy Roosevelt is a close second. The guy was everything a President should be, and, as he said, Probably had more fun doing that job than any one else before him, or since. He was energetic, popular, and did everything in his power to do what he thought was the best for the country. I think he could have cared less how the nation was scewed, or what Congress was trying to do, he did what he thought would make the best impact on his country as a whole. For instance, just look at his devotion to the Nation Forest Service... Besides, the guy lived in Poland, Ohio most of his early years, and that's just freakin awesome! |
My Personal Hero - American Hero - Oh all Time
Robert E. Lee. General Lee believe in what was closest to his heart. He fought for his state, his people. He was respected on both sides, to such a degree that even after the war whole lines of union soldiers bow in respect. General Lee was intelligent, charismatic, and a born leader. He was asked to fight against odds that he eventually couldn't matched, and made something out of it. He is what I believe America should stand for. You don't have to believe in our government, but believe in our people and fight for them. Our loyalty is to those who we love, and our land. In our happiness others will thrive. General Lee was a good man, and he along with others like my Father, Abraham Lincoln, Kublai Kahn, and other leaders have my utmost respect. You don't have to be in the perfect situation, you don't have to be the perfect person, but as long as you try to be as much as you can be, you can be a good man. |
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I notice you put these qualities for President Lincoln, I would like to see how you compare these traits to your political beliefs. Lets start with this one - He alone (until US Grant) understood the gravity of the Civil War and what it would take to win it. I believe General Grants strategy during the war was call "The grinder". Essentially it was pretty much throwing our men, not caring for casualties, to oppress the opponent. I'm sure back then it would be the same as now, people were appalled...yet the strategy worked in the end all history shows us that now. My question to you, would you accept President Bush if he was vindicated at the end, that his strategy that people saw was a huge mess turned out right? - He was a politician who accepted he did not represent all Americans, but reached out to try to "save the Union." Lincoln saw the United states as a great whole, not as a disfunctional society. Do you think Senator Kerry's constant berating of our government and it's disfunctional state going to backfire on him? What if he does aquire the president posistion, and in his 4 or 8 years can't fix what he considers broken. Do you think our people would subconciouslly feel that we are a broken society and nothing can fix us? - He was a great leader during the countries most dangerous time. President Bush is far from being a great leader, I think both left and right can agree on that. Yet earlier you listed General Grant as an example, and history told us that he was terrible at his job as both general and president yet he got the job done. Do you think that President Bush can once again be vindicated because of this over time? I know you will give a good answer Mr. Mephisto. |
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generals and politicians, instead of those who impacted our country through their inventive genius or their humanitarian insight and example? <a href="http://www.teslascience.org/">Tesla Wardenclyffe Project</a> Quote:
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_arts.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_arts.html</a> In his battle against Tesla, Edison fought to preserve his monopoly on the NY City direct current (DC) power generating and distribution newtork that his company was building and profiting from. Edison had briefly employed Tesla and had reneged on paying Tesla a promised $50,000 bonus. DC was an inferior technology because it required bulky copper wires and heavy transformers to distribute electricity even short distances from power plants, and offered a much greater risk of electrocution to people in DC electrified homes or businesses. Edison created a smear and disinformation campaign against Tesla and his superior alternating current (AC) power system design, which included demonstrations where stray animals were executed by Edison employees using AC current to falsely persuade the public that AC current was more dangerous. Tesla worked closely with the Westinghouse company to build powered generators and motors that displaced and eliminated Edison's DC powered products. Edison intended for his smear term "westinghoused" to be interchangeable with the word "electrocuted". <a href="http://physics.about.com/cs/physicists/a/tesla1_4.htm">http://physics.about.com/cs/physicists/a/tesla1_4.htm</a> |
There is no funnier american that Bill Murray. So thats my vote for the greatest American. He has made people laugh all over the world and isn't laughter the most important thing in life. What a gift, i thank you America for producing such talent.
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A pioneer in the field of telecommunications, Alexander Graham Bell
aside from antiseptics/medicine which saved mankind, telecommunications has been one of the greatest human achievements to forward mankind's developement... |
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just my $.02 |
Gertrude Stein
Mark Twain Ben Franklin Orson Wells Igor Stravinsky (became an American citizen eventually :-D ) ah yes and tesla is a good name to be on the list too. Art and science deserve high standings on this list of the great Americans. |
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You have choice in that one line. THe person given the oppurtunity can choose to use what was given to him to be a person of a great caliber. I didn't mean it to say "If you have the power, you will be a good person". I see your point though, just wanted to tell you why I wrote that line. Choice is what defines our life, if I was given the power of my land I can choice either to do good or bad, my actions would reflect into history books. Concerning Idolization of War Figures, I believe a majority of it is because they excelled under conflict. War Figures tend to lay a more audible and visual foundation to our civilization. Throughout our history most of our civilization had it's peak when a former General or military person took an action or took control. The founding of our country, the roman empire. In the past through war we laid the foundation to our society, and then we let politics and civilians nuture and fertilize our ideals. Now that war has merged more into a capatilistic battle field where the betterment of our society is not how much land we claim and people we rule, that's finite, but technology and innovation. Companies are battling each other to evolve humanity. I think some of you would severly disagree with me, because it's a matter of point of view, but the healthiest thing about war is it allows us to be put in a situation far beyond what we consider normal and in that you have innovations and thought ideas that spawn from that which would of either gone stagnent or laid dorment for who knows how long. I honestly believe, war is a catalyst for human thought and action, and that's why the idolization of War Figurines (Even if they are haunted by ghost, or just damn bad people in general) are on the top. Maybe in 50 years, people would say things like bill gates, because the newspapers now show a person that was dislikable, but the history books in the future, with only their summaries will show a person more palatable and lacking those negative traits against them. I've found this tread very interesting though seeing everyone people listed. Like I agree with Secret Method, I like MLK jr., but I think also he was a womanizer and he had affairs (from what I remember Neal Boortz saying), which are traits that disgust some people. The overall person, I cannot judge his personal affairs, I thought was a good person. Also I loved Bill Clinton, his charisma was wonderful and he was articulate...but he's political view points differ from me and he was a cheater. You don't have to be ghandi to be loved. |
How about Doyle Brunson?
What can I say -- I love poker, and he's the one who literally "wrote the book" on it. |
Its quite simple.
War is more important than art in terms of a nations survival. All the art in the world won't save you from the barbarian horde. No ones family was killed by the power of a painting. Art may inspire action, but it is the action that makes the difference. |
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Mr Mephisto |
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There are som differences though. First and foremost, the Union, the whole United States, is not fighting a Civil War now. It is not in the utmost danger of collapsing. And Bush is not throwing men and women into combat in the same way as Grant did. Grant and Lincoln "did the numbers". They knew the Confederacy couldn't keep up with the casualties that the North could. But that was a sign of the times. No one, no President could do that today. Times have changed. People's beliefs in what is worth dying for has changed. And a lot of Americans don't believe that it's worth dying to ensure the Vice-President's cronies get some juicy oil contracts in Iraq (joke... kinda). So in summary, if Bush were "proved right" would I accept him? Of course. But I honestly don't think he will be proved right in his war in Iraq, his environmental policy, his social policy. That's the problem with a lot these things. They're very subjective. The Civil War was pretty "cut and dry". Either the North won and preserved the Union, or the South won and destroyed the Union. I don't believe there's such an easy logic to the Iraqi conflict. Quote:
Will Kerry's berating back-fire on him? Well, I don't think so. No more than Bush's berating has back-fired on him. There will always be people who argue for either side. What if he doesn't "fix" things? I don't think any one man can fix the things broken in any society. Especially Kerry if the Congress has a Republican majority! :) Will people continue to think the US is dysfunctional? Well, I don't think it is. It obviously is functional as a society. There are things that are not working right. Kerry and Bush both agree on that. But they both have different political agendas and political beliefs. My preference are for those promulgated by Kerry, but that doesn't mean I don't understand, or that I disrespect those of Bush and his supporters. Quote:
Do I think Bush will be vindicated over time? Well, that depends upon the end result. I personally don't believe his strategy (if you will) is the best way to address the threats and challenges that America faces. Who know (though) what history will tell us. In a hundred and forty years from now, maybe Bush will be considered a great President. I don't argue that possibility. My gut feeling is that he won't be, but I've been wrong in the past. :) Let me tell you one of the main reasons I don't think Bush will be considered a great President. Simply because of the polarization of US politics. I honestly believe he doesn't really care that much for those that disagree with him. The opposite can be said for Lincoln, who very much cared what the opposition felt and tried to always walk a middle ground (before civil war made this impossible). Finally, if you are asking if Bush will ever be considered as great, or in the same league, as Lincoln, then no. I don't think so. Ever. Let me add that I think the "right", the conservatives, the Republicans have produced many great politicans and Presidents. Lincoln himself for example. Even Reagan could be considered a great President (even though I don't support Reaganomics and some of his rush towards militarization), but he's certainly head and shoulders above Bush in stature, intelligence, charm and capabilitiy. Colin Powell would have made a great President. Cain would have made a great President. But Bush? My honest opinion is no. So I guess "my beef" (if you will) is not with conservatism as a whole, but with Bush in particular. I honestly don't think he's that great. Quote:
Mr Mephisto |
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We had riots in NY the likes of which we have not seen before? Don't use rose tinted glasses to look at the civil war or Lincoln. |
Yes I do know that Ustwo. I'm also quite familiar with the anti-conscription riots (in which the Irish were very much involved unfortunately) that wracked New York.
Who is using rose tinted glasses? You yourself nominated Lincoln as (one of) the greatest Americans. Funny how you can criticise me for sharing one of your opinions. But hey, thanks for your concern. :) Mr Mephisto |
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I think you bring up very vaild points, and I'm going to study your approach for little bit. |
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That being said, Bush won't be equal to Lincoln in greatness reguardless of the outcome in the Mid East. The stakes are not the same. |
So looks like we agree Ustwo. :)
Mr Mephisto |
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Actually, it was Lincoln who suggested hanging, not me. Please reread the original quote. Hanging would undoubtedly NOT pass Constitutional muster nowadays. If it was good enough for Lincoln, one of our most revered Presidents, to do to Vallandigham, it's good enough for Fonda and Kerry. |
I wasn't referring to the original quote. I was saying that I thought you had, in another thread, stated that Kerry and Fonda as traitors should have been hanged.
Maybe you didn't. I can see how I could have been confusing. Mr Mephisto |
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I would either nominate FDR or Kurt Vonnegut.
I still don't think FDR gets the credit he should. It was primarily his ideas that led the way through arguably 2 of America's 3 most trying periods. |
Why Kurt Vonnegut?
Apart from writing some very strange fiction, what has he done? Just curious... Mr Mephisto |
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As a non-American I'm probably missing a lot of information and my list of prospective greats is undoubtedly shorter.
My nomination is Cassius Marcellus Clay, AKA Muhammad Ali. An effortless master of his trade, but still committed to being the best he possibly could. A man who was a great personality and one who stood up for what he believed was right. He was made a United Nations Messenger of Peace. |
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Is it the apocolypse?? |
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