wnker85

Whoever gets elected, nothing will change. What ever I say or anyone else, truth or lies, nothing will change.

I have given up with all the political talk till the next election, It has just gotten old, and I am one who loves to debate.

No matter how many secret documents are pulled out and movies made I don't care.

Is there more people who have become fed up with all of this?

But still voting, and you should too.

Scipio

I'm not totally apathetic, but I have no reason to think that Kerry will be a great president. I'm worried about leaving Bush in charge of the world's finest nation for another four years. He simply isn't up to the job.

Is Kerry great? No, but I'll take a C- over a F any day of the week, and that's why I early voted for him today.

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Dane Bramage

I'm still voting, but I am also fed up.

The one interesting thing I have heard is that Colorado has a measure (36 I think) to split its electorial vote according to the percentages of the popular vote. I think this is they best idea yet. If this was the case in the last election, we would have a different president right now...

Not sure how that would have changed things, but at least we could be a little more confident that the voice of the people are being heard.

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Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules — and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
Kurt Vonnegut - Sirens of Titan

xepherys

I agree with all of the above... *sigh*

Things will not get "better" regardless... but I think under Bush, things might very well get worse. I was seriously opposed to voting for either of them (would vote Libertarian), but I just can't stand to see Bush win again, so I must concede.

aceventura3

You have to vote for Kerry, he is going to:

Make us loved by the world.
Give everyone health care.
End the war.
Make us safer.
Make sure no-one ever loses a job.
Cure Disease through stem cell research.
Eliminate the national debt.
Cut our taxes (unless your are a top 2% tax payer)
Inspect every container that comes into the US.
Lower the price of gas.
Capture Osama.
Lower the costs of prescription drugs.
Raise everyones wages.
Help small business owners.
Improve schools.
Give everyone the money to go to college.
Clean the air and water.

I am sure there are a few other things I missed, but needless to say I can not wait. It going to be like Christmas everyday when Kerry becomes president. Isn't it??? And isn't that enough to keep you motivated, and vote for Bush?

flstf

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." - Alexander Tyler

I think we are close to the complacency stage now. Only the Democrat/Republican can possibly win again. We are doing it to ourselves, a vote for either one changes little. Somehow we need to stop fooling ourselves that there is a big difference between the two.

SirSeymour

While I love the quote and think there is likely some truth to its message, flstf, you may want to check out this article from Snopes before throwing it around too much. Is likely not real.

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flstf

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that Benjamin Franklin said:

“When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”

I just assumed he got it from the Tyler quotation.

daswig

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can exist only until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury. "

We are SO there....

Scipio

So who's promising the handouts from the public treasury? Bush promised the biggest tax cuts in recent memory. I though the quote and article were a slam on Gore...

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

loganmule

The lesser of two evils is still evil, so pick your poison...Bush or Kerry. Maybe I'm becoming a cynic as I age, but I don't see any significant future upward evolutionary political changes, and fear revolutionary change. In a discussion with a friend, I said that we seem to be on a runaway train, and he responded that the engine has hit a wall and we in the caboose just haven't caught up with it yet...he may have nailed it.

roachboy

i love quotes, real of fictional, from eighteenth century historians who assumed they had worked out a natural arc to history--nothing to be done kids, its just the curve of Things--why bother worrying, really, since the future is already ordained. pretty funny stuff on the surface, totally obsolete conceptually...but hey, why not cite it again? it's like reading an old joke.


on the matter at hand:

what is at stake in the election has been all but obscured behind an enormous steaming mound of crap....impoverished discourse, impoverished conversations..a slide into competing versions of nothing-but-spin and away from providing any basis for debate.
you see its lovely steam wafting into here all too often.
if i didnt have even more onerous tasks to avoid at the moment, i would not be here at all until after this farce of an election is over.

yes, this is quite a model of democratic process we have here in the states.
it is surely something to be proud of.

on the other hand, that the election is ultimately about faction rotation within the oligarchy does not mean that one faction is not preferable to the other.

so here's hoping that bush and the mayberry machiavellians start making retirement plans next week.

but my money is on the red sox.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

cthulu23

We're only as doomed as we think that we are. Self-fulfilling, apathetic prophecies do nothing to avert whatever catastrophe you see coming. Change is not only possible, it is one of the only constants in life.

flstf

[QUOTE=
yes, this is quite a model of democratic process we have here in the states.
it is surely something to be proud of.

on the other hand, that the election is ultimately about faction rotation within the oligarchy does not mean that one faction is not preferable to the other.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but choosing between those two factions (Democrat/Republican) is like choosing between an eye dropper or a water pistol to fight a large fire. We argue endlessly about the merits of both to no avail. The problem isn't the difference between the two but that they are the wrong tools to use in the first place. Now if one of them could morph into a full scale fire truck we may have something but I fear it is against both their natures. And yet we continue to elect them and act as if a choice of one over the other will make any real difference.

loganmule

I agree with you, in a Zen sense. Also I'll vote and continue to do what I can to advocate what I believe to be change for the better. It doesn't logically follow, from the inevitability of change, however, that you or I will be a factor in it. Hence a rule for life to give it your best shot, and then acquiesce in the result...am I OT yet? If so, sorry.

MSD

No matter who wins, they don't want to reduce the size of the government
No matter who wins, they don't want to stop taking my hard-earned money
No matter who wins, they don't want to stop misusing my tax dollars
No matter who wins, they don't want to step out of the pockets of big business
No matter who wins, they don't want to give our military the pay that they deserve
No matter who wins, they don't want to do what is best for the country
No matter who wins, they don't want to get in touch with the people
No matter who wins, they don't want to give my fellow Americans the freedom to live thier lives as they choose
No matter who wins, they don't want me to own guns
No matter who wins, they don't want me to think for myself
No matter who wins, they don't want me to speak my mind
No matter who wins, they don't want me to be free
No matter who wins, I lose

Do I come across as being a bit cynical and bitter?

tecoyah

No matter who wins....I'm Moving to Canada

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roachboy

actually---and i am dead serious about this---i am considering leaving the states if bush "wins" or wins another term.

because i would have to conclude from a second bushterm that this place is hopeless.
which is not an easy position to be put into.

because this is not a joke, i wonder as i sit here if i should post it in this space at all.

like i said earlier, while i might understand that the whole of american pseudo-democracy is at this point little more that faction rotation within the oligarchy, i reject entirely the idea that there is therefore no difference between the factions.

if it comes to this--and i hope it does not---i expect that watching the elections result in a second term for cowboy george and his band of incompents would be worse than watching the sequence in oedipus where he puts out his own eyes---because it would not be a play---i would not be able to leave it and assume that the world i left when i entered the theater would be more or less the same when i exited the theater.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Locobot

Well of course you should post this here. I've had a similiar train of thought myself, to the point that I'm mulling over possible emigration plans. I'm pretty sure I could find work teaching english abroad, but changing citizenship is not all that easy of a thing depending on where you go. I see the job as the key. Any plans as to where and what you might do?

FatherTed

I'm sure this has been covered in many threads in the last few weeks/months, but it is pretty incredible to many of us Europeans that Bush could possibly be in the running for a second term.

The image people have of him over here is that of a bumbling fool, who is really a puppet and being managed by Cheaney, his dad and other senior Republicans.
He is seen as having no coherent foreign policy and makes decisions based upon how he will be perceived in the US, i.e. a few lives for a few votes.

We are, of course, comparing him with Clinton who had an excellent image in this part of the world (and still does).

I realise that no nation should elect a leader based upon what other nations think of him/them but it is still a situation of disbelief here!

SirSeymour

Trust me, there are plenty here who are stunned the George is seriously in the running for a second term as well. The fact that this is the case can be explained by a number of things:

1. The Democrats did not give the US a really good alternative to W. Kerry is just as objectionable and more out of touch to many of us. While there are many other candidates, no one but these two has a prayer of actually winning.
2. The tradition of not challenging a sitting president from within his own party. In other words, no Republican opposed George for the GOP nomination. Personally, I dislike this tradition.
3. No sitting wartime President has ever failed to be re-elected. If history teaches us anything in this county it is to never bet against the President in this situation.
4. A vast portion of the US electorate is ignorant of the facts but it would not help a lot because of item #1 above.

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loganmule

roachboy and Locobot, where would you prefer to live, and how do you weigh out the pro's and con's to come up with a place which is materially better on balance? I'm reminded of the story about whose problems you would choose, if all of us were able to throw them in a pile. No surprise there, I'll take my own, thanks, country and all, even though it sucks to be me sometimes.

Konichiwaneko

Make us loved by the world.
Give everyone health care.
End the war.
Make us safer.
Make sure no-one ever loses a job.
Cure Disease through stem cell research.
Eliminate the national debt.
Cut our taxes (unless your are a top 2% tax payer)
Inspect every container that comes into the US.
Lower the price of gas.
Capture Osama.
Lower the costs of prescription drugs.
Raise everyones wages.
Help small business owners.
Improve schools.
Give everyone the money to go to college.
Clean the air and water.



I bet he doesn't do half this list. Not because he can't, but because republicans will have the house and senate

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roachboy

re. emigrating.

at this point, i am waiting to see how tuesday goes.
it is not like i would be making a move for anywhere--i would be leaving here i f bush gets re-elected.
and it is not like i have been unaware of the problematic aspects of being in the states--to deal with it requires some hope, at some level--another bush term would make that hope really difficult to maintain.

locobot: for the moment, i'll leave it at that--if bush wins, the matter will come up again--in real life, we have stopped talking about it in the abstract, figuring that all that remains is waiting and working out the implications.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Averett

Me too! For reals yall


my boyfriend is Canadian...

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ARTelevision

I will be accepting either outcome and supporting my President and my country. It's not at all a complex matter to me. Things change as they will. To think that we are not the agent responsible for what happens to us is folly. It's incumbent upon each of us to behave in the best interest of our collective destiny, isn't it? To foist this responsibility for our lot upon someone else - even the most powerful man in the world - is an exercise in powerlessness I prefer not to pursue.

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Averett

Art, I'm curious, do you always vote for the Incumbent if we have one? I see a lot of your posts say that you support the President, so I'm trying to figure out if you support Bush, or you support the Presidency, thereby voting for the President in any election where a President can be voted for.

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ARTelevision

No Averett. I vote by assessing the underlying power relationships existing in the world at large and then make my choices accordingly. I exercise my option to state my opinions but I would never think of not supporting the current President, when it comes to the validity or significance of the execution of his responsibilities.

I think what's missing in many folks is a sense of deep respect for the process by which we elect people to represent us and govern. I respect the Office of the Presidency in ways that I do not see much in evidence today.

As for the upcoming election, my response was directly aimed there. I accept the will of the people as expressed in our due process - even when it leads to a close Supreme Court decision as it did last time. And whatever the outcome of this election, you'll see this underlying respect for the man and the office in my statements - even when I may disagree with particular positions.

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roachboy

i dunno, art--sometimes i think you have a basically religious sensibility that has transferred belief in god to belief in the institutional infrastructure particular to the american system...

you almost seem to think that the institutions themselves have some kind of agency, or that they will in and of themselves protect "us" from the consequences of the idiocy of individuals.

i do not understand that.

because i do not believe that institutions can do this, i do not understand your reverence for the american electoral process as process in and of itself.

it seems to me that the process is nothing more than a mechanism that enframes collective choices, however mediated, however empty from the point of view of informed decision. maybe this distinction--if i read you right--explains how you can simultaneously maintain that the content of electoral politics is bullshit through and through--all crap, all spin, all opinion--but not draw damaging conclusions from that about the process of election itself.

for what it is worth, i can agree that electoral politics this time out in particular is entirely bankrupt, but i think that by choosing to go this way the political parties that dominate the present order are choosing to undermine both their own legitimacy and that of the system itself--and that nothing about the fact of elections, and nothing about the configuration of the institutional framework will save us.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Averett

Thanks for answering, Art.

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ARTelevision

Not at all, roachboy. In fact, to the contrary.

My statement regarding each one of us having personal responsibility as agents in this and my chagrin at how easily we seem to offload that stand unassailed.

That being said - the collective will has an agency of expression - the electoral process. I see that as an evolving agency. I look for it to progress toward greater and greater significance and validity by means of our responsible personal and collective behavior.

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roachboy

hope you're right, sir.

who knows, maybe a few years from now, if i figure out that you are, i'll be able to tell you as much.

for the moment, i dont see it.

but some part of me does, in fact, hope that you are right.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ARTelevision

Thanks, roachboy.
Here's how I see it.
I've been able to move progressively, constructively, and positively engaged in creative evolution with many folks who hold opinions contrary to mine - with you, for example. I think I'm a more valuable person and citizen as a result. This sort of thing is my way of acting locally to enable a global vision which we both may share - as you indicated above that you do.

I've incorporated many points of praxis regarding the study of history and of our collective destiny from your points of view. I've altered some of my positions as a result - without relinquishing my sense of the necessity of maintaining some tension in order to maintain integrity in the whole system. I think this allows us to move forward toward what is in both of our best interests as well as toward the betterment of the interest of all.

In fact, I hope most folks here have a sense of the ability to constructively engage the opposition so that, at the end of the day, we all feel as if we have made progress toward some underlying mutually held goals.

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flstf

ARTelevision, I also hope you are right.

But as I get older, been voting for about 25 years now, I am getting less positive about our system. Government just keeps on getting larger and larger no matter which one of the major parties is in power. It is like a runaway train.

I guess it is not the polititian's fault, they are just giving us what we want for the most part. I fear it will take an economic collapse or something before we change our ways.

ARTelevision

Understood. What I am really intending to do is to emphasize the necessity for each of us to take responsibility for agency in this. The way I see it, it is the only way to rescue political discourse as more than a form of disputation and an exercise in powerlessness.

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bling

Art - I agree that contrary opinions are frequently constructive. Especially when they are as well intentioned as your own seem to be.

However, and this goes to my impression of your perspective on propaganda in the Eminem thread, there is a fine line between taking a contrary position to construct beneficial discourse and taking a contrary position which acts as negative propaganda.

Based on your clear intelligence, your inclination to disseminate contrary viewpoints which are in effect propaganda, which you have already remonstrated for negatively impacting society, you are essentially acting on behalf of that which you claim to disfavor - while continuing to denounce it and pepper it with good intentions. This style of discourse reminds me of the fictional character Ellsworth Toohey, the supreme manipulator.

aliali

No offense, but I hope that you really go if he wins. To me it sounds like a little perspective will do you some good. Me, I would have stayed even if Perot had one. As for now there will still be new elections, checks on government, and examples of greatness between our shores. When those things go away, I might just try to fix them before packing up. Great thing about the internet, you can keep in touch and let us know how the much better the rest of the world is.

ARTelevision

bling, time may tell if you decide to take my words and intentions at face value. Meaning acrues through time and context. If there were other better ways to do what I do, I'd do them. Communication via this medium operates by its own set of conditions. I wouldn't expect to be read the same way by everyone.

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bling

I believe I have been taking your words at face value. The dichotomy of some of your statements is where I get tripped up. And yes, I hear your statements of good intentions and do believe that if you were aware of better ways to do what you do, you would do them. Many things are done for good intentions - not all of them result in the good that is intended. Ellsworth Toohey had the best of intentions, based on his concept of the society that surrounded him.

It is my impression that many of your statements are essentially harmful, whether intended as such or not. Maybe as time goes by you will come to understand this to be true. Or maybe you will not.

ARTelevision

I'll note your statement above and keep it in mind. This has digressed toward a personal discussion. That ends with this post.

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