scout

It appears that Kerry doesn't have the widespread support of all the police he currently says or insinuates he has.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=38194

Just another example of how he will lie about anything to anyone about everything just to get elected.


{edit, he isn't the only one that does or says anything for a vote....there are some republicans just as bad ... just not running for president .....}

Arroe

Yes, over the past few weeks Kerry has been making quite a few misguided presumptions.

I especially liked during the last debate when Kerry said Senator McCain would support him as president and how Bush corrected him by reminding Kerry that McCain support's Bush's reelection. I was lucky enough to see the President and Senator McCain speak right after the debate here in Phoenix infront of 45,000 of his supporters and the President even noted there that McCain has campaigned heavily with him the past few weeks.

host

This is a thread which the Mods should consider, and then.............
Consider that this thread's "main point" is inaccurate and easily refuted:

mrian

McCain probably supports both of them. I have always thought McCain was a good strong leader and senator for Arizona, but I disslike Bush very much. It suprises me that he has been so supportive of Bush.
A couple of my friends got to see bush drive by in his motorcade. And Kerry had a rally at tempe beach park by ASU a couple of my friends went to. Go Foo Fighters and I would rather vote for Grohl over either candidate and Badnarik.

tecoyah

Add this to the "Pointless Spin" section of the TFP....oh....wait....it seems that is already where it is.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

scout

Respectfully, I think you missed the point. This thread wasn't meant to be about flip-flops per se. The good Lord knows that they have both flip-flopped on numerous occasions. It was merely pointing out that Kerry doesn't have the support of the majority of the police nor does he have the support of the police in his continued support of the now defunct AWB, contrary to what he would have everyone believe. Sorry if you was confused!

cthulu23

Scout,

If you actually read the story carefully (and it's a vague press release), you can see that the representative for the FOP wanted to make it clear that the FOP was not endorsing Kerry, although other police organizations have. They aren't saying that Kerry lied but that they wanted to demonstrate that not all police orgs are endorsing him. Lie about anything to anyone about everything? Not quite, although that sounds like a good Rush line.

scout

ctulu if you read it carefully you will see the FOP claims itself and I quote ...


"the largest organization representing America's Federal, State and local law enforcement officers, I believe it's important to point out yet again that we do not support his candidacy for President," Canterbury said. "And to be perfectly frank, the groups which do support him actually share the same membership rolls and, taken together, probably comprise less than one-quarter of our nation's police officers."

So in other words a very small minority. I never stated Kerry lied, merely he overstated and insinuated he had more support than in fact he did in regards to exactly how many police officers supported his campaign and how many echoed his support for the now defunct AWB.

OpieCunningham

Um .... yeah.

cthulu23

So let's hear a quote that backs that claim up...he does have endorsements from some police organizations. You may be right, but you aren't giving me enough information to make that determination.

host

My comment directed to the Mods:
Beginning a thread with an opinion that Kerry is a liar, and that Bush is not,
on the strength of a paid press release that, at most, persuades us that
Kerry misinterpreted and or misstated the depth of the support of his candidacy by the law enforcement community, should be critiqued by the
forum moderators. The only redeeming factor of your thread opening statement is that now, you have exhibited your standard of what will pass muster as an informed opinion on the TFP political forum.

Ustwo

A closed mind is a terrible thing to see.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

daswig

Host, you need some cheese to go with that?

scout

Alrighty then, I guess you shoulda watched the last debate. Twentyfive percent is certainly stretching the limits on "most". This is quoted directly from the transcript of the last debate found here

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004d.html

There's more I'm sure but I don't have time to look it all up at the moment, work beckons. So this one instance will have to suffice for the moment.


SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes.

You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not?

BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them.

But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U. S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number.

Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns.

To me, that's the best way to secure America.

SCHIEFFER: Senator?

KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban.

I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment.

But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting.

And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47.

I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him. "

Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today.

And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it.

So I believe America's less safe.

If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight. "

And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won.

Kadath

scout, I don't see where he said most of the police support him. The only thing I could find that was close is "And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. " And that isn't really that close. It's actually possible to want the assault weapons ban without wanting Kerry as President -- look at President Bush. He said he wanted the ban extended.

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it's quiet in here

cthulu23

Kadath is right...there is nothing in that statement that references how many police support him.

daswig

I know several hundred active cops, and have yet to meet the first one that actually supports Kerry. Of course, I live in the South...

The_Dunedan

Scout:
1: Terrorists would pay $600+ for a SEMI-auto AK clone why, again? They can get a REAL AK-47 for less than $20 in the areas where they operate.
2: If someone's dealing drugs ( illegally ) do you REALLY think they're going to go through the legal channels to buy an AK? Because that's the presumption here: that a law will stop a criminal.

filtherton

Do you always make such an effort at comedic irony?

scout

Kadath, his last line was " I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won." While it's impossible to tell exactly how many police officers support Kerry, the typical layperson listening to these debates {without benefit of the internet and transcriptions} would assume by all the above statements that Kerry had the support of most law enforcement officers. I know I certainly did until I done a little research.

The DuneDan
Yes I agree, the AWB actually done little to curb crime. Very few crimes was ever committed by assualt weapons to begin with. Effectively it removed guns from law-abiding citizens moreso than criminals.

Kadath

"While it's impossible to tell exactly how many police officers support Kerry, the typical layperson listening to these debates {without benefit of the internet and transcriptions} would assume by all the above statements that Kerry had the support of most law enforcement officers. I know I certainly did until I done a little research. "

Well, that may be. It is possible to make a fallacious assumption based upon a statement made by a politician. But Kerry never stated he had the support of every police officer. Again, he's saying that the AWB is good for police officers because it means they can worry less about assault weapons used against them, and if he were President when the AWB was to be extended or dumped, he would have worked with them to extend the ban for their benefit.

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it's quiet in here

daswig

kadath, how many police officers were bayonetted between 1994 and 2004? Because that's what the AW ban banned...bayonets.

tecoyah

I do so agree with you on this one....however, I really don't want to begin trading insults with you again.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Kadath

daswig, I don't propose to argue the AWB with you. First, that's not what this thread is about, and second, I've given up arguing guns on this board.

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it's quiet in here

daswig

kadath, then what part of the AW ban was good for police officers according to Kerry? That IS on topic...

cthulu23

Apparently many police chiefs supported the assault weapon ban. It's understandable that they might be a little sensitive about the issue....

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5946127/

Willravel

You mean like bayonets are on topic? In addition to guns with bayonets, guns with folding stocks are not allowed.
What should be remembered is that of all violent crimes reported in America, one fourth involve guns, and these assault guns account for only one percent of all gun crimes committed (that's 1/4 of 1%). That's general knowledge. Kerry was just trying to get support from joe American who thinks that all guns are the devil.

daswig

police chiefs are politicians, not cops. And who did the FOP endorse again?

daswig

Folding stocks did nothing to affect the federally mandated OverAll Length (OAL) requirements of a single firearm. Before the AW ban, firearms had to be a certain size (OAL). After the AW ban, "post ban" guns had to be exactly the same size (OAL) that they were before the ban.

scout

cthulu, your quote isn't even in the link you provided. If it is I sure can't find it after reading the complete 6 paragraphs 4 times. Not that it matters all that much but ........... oh well.

cthulu23

It's there, scout...do a search for Fraternal or something.

daswig,

FOP endorsed Bush, which has nothing to do with whether or not they supported the assault weapon ban. Apparently the police see some value in it.

Regardless of all that, no one has backed up the thesis of this thread yet.

themisfit

I'm married to a cop and he doesn't supoort Kerry. But we know some who do. The "official" support of any police organization means nothing in reference to who the real officers working the streets support. And in police work, as in the rest of the country, it's divided. Cops are people too with varying beliefs and opinions. Just because some union/organizaition's head honcho supports one candidate doesn't mean the police in whole do.

__________________
At length my cry was known:
Therein lay my release.
I met the wolf alone
And was devoured in peace.

ESVM

daswig

cthulu, are you actually familiar with the mechanics of the AW ban? Do you know what the net result of the ban was? It was that prices on "pre-ban" guns went up due to collectability issues, and that the manufacturers merely removed the offending features from the guns. If anything, the 10 years of the AW ban caused a dramatic INCREASE on the amount of firepower available on the street, since it made "assault weapons" into a banned but desireable thing. It's the law of unintended consequences.

Are you familiar with the Serbu BFG-50? It's a single-shot .50 BMG rifle that was recently banned in California. The guy who makes them sold more BFG-50s to californians the day after the ban was signed into law than he sold in the entire previous month to the entire United States.

Prohibition NEVER works. It doesn't matter what is being prohibited....booze, drugs, or guns. Where there's a demand, there WILL be a supply.

Kadath

daswig:

First of all, welcome back.

Second, please stop trying to argue the merits or failures of the AWB. The police liked it, Kerry said he would have fought to keep it for them. That's the end of it.

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