gyroscope

i am from germany and i'm really interested in the vote for the us president.but i wonder how the poitical climate really is in the usa.the german media shows many documetnations about the vote,but they are nearly all pro-kerry.
so i'm asking myslef if kerry really has so many supporters.i would like to know what#s the political climat like at the moment.i wat to know it from people that really live in the usa because i don't know if i can trust the media.

cthulu23

The polls are a good indicator of how people feel here....they are divided right down the middle.

SirSeymour

Yeah, right now it is dead heat nationally. The scales tip one way or the other depending on which state a person lives in though and right now polls show Bush with a bit of a lead in the Electoral College which is where it counts.

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nospam

Even with the scales tipping this way or that, with the margin of error, it's too close to tell.

JBX

There in no middle ground anymore. But for the media shows you are watching it appears you are getting more Bush hate than love for Kerry.

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Lebell

gyroscope,

You are seeing the liberal media bias that many say doesn't exist. Even though polls say the two are split in support, the media presents more pro-Kerry stories than pro-Bush.

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Redlemon

Well, he said he's in Germany, so it isn't 'our' liberal media. I think most people outside the US dislike President Bush.

roachboy

given that the press is geared toward covering the elections as if they were a horserace, and to giving the impression that somehow they more than mediate that horserace--without going so far as to say they determine anything---it stands to reason that coverage would itself swing around with changes in perceived (by who?) "momentum".
two things i rather like about this election--but they are about the only two things:

1. the conservative discourse generating machinery has been flanked of late--it is increasingly revelaed as a discourse-space and not as "common sense"---this is a good thing if you oppose the politics and the discourse in that it is now possible--in ways that it has not been since the farce that followed 911 got under way--to expose the weaknesses of that discourse across the major media. of course, the right does not like this and looks to trivialize it--whence the rhetoric of "bush hating" that you see thrown about at great and tedious regularity.

it is good because simply by being able to pull conservative discourse into a comparative framework at all, its limitations become obvious--that it is not based on a descriptive relation to the world--instead it seeks to atomize, fragment, and render incapable of action the population in the face of dominant economic forces..it seeks to create an inverted world in which mechanisms for public accountability are understood as the problems in themselves---it seeks to frame transfers of wealth, which are the most effective mechanism developed under capitalism to assure adequate levels of social stability--as theft...the list goes on and on--not a single point stands up to scrutiny--not one--unless that discourse is itself the dominant--ideally for the right, the exclusive--frame within which thinking politically can operate.

instead of thinking critically about the world, what you get is a bizarre kind of social affect-structure whose dominant feature is to deny that it is social; you get a wholly dominant frame of reference the primary feature of which is to present itself as a persecuted minority position engaged in an endless fight with a hallucination of the "left"....

the debates have been interesting only in this respect--if bush is put into a position where his tendency to speak in code to the right is undermined, he is helpless.
even in a debate with somone who is running as far to the right as kerry is this time, bush cannot explain his positions, cnanot spell out their logic, cannot defend anything--instead he reverts to his fatuous language of the Will--hallmark of petit bourgeois politics of the last century in their radical nationalist incarnations across teh board.

2.
the other thing is that all that really matters now is that people vote.
uncertainty is part of democracy.
the americans are not fans of democracy.
but this particular election, which is impossible to predict at the moment, is closer to it at the level of preditability of outcome, than any i can remember.

it is a strange place to be, this is, right now.

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OpieCunningham

Outside of the fact that gyroscope is referring to the German media, that the race is split but the media is reporting more positives for Kerry is simply due to the fact that for the past month, Kerry has rebounded from trailing Bush - you might want to think it is liberal media bias, but in reality what you are seeing is the momentum of the Kerry campaign built on his strong debate performances.

Next.

Willravel

As far as there being a leader in the polls, ich weiß nicht. Ich habe ein problem with other countries medias getting so Kerry-centric because of his mistake with the war. Obviously the rest of the world disapproves of Bush, but covering an election fairly is a good way of letting people know what's really going on. Danke for using english, I hope my absurdly small amount of knowledge of the german language made you feel welcommen.

Lebell

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but you have offered nothing more in the past to convince me that it is anything more than that.

I however have read numerous studies of the big media organizations that show pro-liberal stories consistently outweigh pro-conservative stories, averaged over the whole nation.

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OpieCunningham

Likewise. The difference of course is that your opinion is the one that diverges from the default that a free media is inherently unbiased in general.

And I have read numerous reviews of such studies which demonstrate clearly and unequivocally that they are flawed in numerous ways.

ARTelevision

Here's my response to the original post:

The political climate in America is probably the healthiest it has been in decades. Yes, the reporting and polling does describe a horserace as far as the election is concerned. It's in the media's interest to report it that way.

But I think it reflects the actual situation pretty well at this point. And as I see it, it is a good and healthy thing to have the issues clearly defined and to have people be lining up according to their views. The whole truth comprises both sides' views. That's hard to parse during a contentious time. But nonetheless, it is the case. The processes of government we have in place do a pretty good job to ensure divergent views are being considered and are an active part of the evolving process.

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Lebell

Yes, you have said that several times, putting it forward as "default" without offering any proof that it is the "default".

The reality is that polls show that the majority of journalists are left of center.

The one study I saw "refuting" liberal bias asked these same journalists, "are you biased in the way you present the news?"

Such a study to me is equivalent to asking Saddam Hussein, "are you a good leader?".

Of course the answer you get in both cases is biased in itself.

The real test for me comes from canvassing the actual stories and their slant.

From my own first hand knowledge of firearms, I can answer that absolutely anti-gun sentiment usually outweighs pro-gun sentiment in newspaper articles I read, with the anti sentiment usually at the top of the article (usually with a few wrong "facts") and any "balance" or opposing view being presented towards the end.

This is acceptable strategy when you are trying to get people behind your view. Present the things that support your argument favorably and in prominent positions while burying the things that don't support your view (we saw this repeatedly in the debates).

But from a journalist this is equivalent to mal-practice, and it happens much much too frequently for my liking.

An example of this was when the Swift-Boat Veteran story broke.

The majority of the news sources I saw went straight to trying to discredit the group themselves while very few addressed the charges they brought.

Another is how CBS is handling the Dan Rather investigation, now saying that they will hold it until after the election. (Why? they didn't hold the original story until after the election.)

I could go on and on, but at this point, I really don't care to discuss this further with you.

You've clearly set your opinion in concrete and nothing will change it, nor do you seem interested in debate, only argument.

I simply posted the above for others that will read this thread.

Good day.

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ShaniFaye

I've said it before and I'll say it again TFP is the only place that I've seen such a high concentration of Kerry lovers, I can honestly say that in "real" life I know NO ONE that supports him....and on other boards Im on, (that are multi topic boards and not republican boards) and its not like I just go looking for likeminded people...I seriously do not know one person, including myself, that wants that man in office.

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OpieCunningham

Is a free media inherently biased? Obviously not. It would not be a free media - it would be a controlled media. So if you want to claim our media is biased, you have to demonstrate it - as you have (finally) attempted to do below.

This is irrelevent to the question of whether their reporting is left of center. Journalism is a profession based on the intention of objectivity. That is the goal of the average journalist. To equate their personal viewpoint with their ability to strive for and in varying degrees obtain objectivity is disingenous.

The one study? Then you must have missed the reviews of the studies which claim a liberal bias. Those reviews which point out the numerous flaws in methodology of those studies.

Unfortunately, you can't canvass the actual stories and their slant. Because YOU ARE BIASED. Why do you think you are able to discern what is fair reporting and what is not?

So you offer one single example (two if you include your SBVT issue) of what you perceive as liberal bias. Not compelling. If I counter your one example with two examples of conservative bias, would you then claim that the media is in general slanted conservative? I expect not.

I completely agree, if this is what you are claiming, that the media is incompetent. But obviously I have seen no evidence what-so-ever to claim that media is incompetent because it is liberal. It is incompetent because it's goal is to sell advertising and therefore it must appeal to its perception of its audience.

Again, who are you to objectively judge what media did or did not do with the SBVT issue? I hold the opposite perception that you have in this case - when SBVT broke, it was EVERYWHERE. And what was it? The constant repetition of the words of the SBVT with almost zero effort determine what was or was not accurate in their claims. Again - it is the incompetence of the media - controversy sells newspapers/increases viewers which increases advertising demand, which increases rates, which puts money in the pockets of the CEOs, investors and staff.

Of course, you left out the fact that CBS also is withholding the completed report on the inaccuracies and contradictions in Bush's march to war. And you left that out because ... you don't want to have to present the arguments which are in opposition to your opinion. Ironically, exactly what you have accused the media of doing.

You could go on, and I could match each and every example you provide with either a thurough refutation of it, or a comparable example which demonstrates a (in my mind mythical) conservative bias.

Right back at ya. Except of course, my demands that you back up your incessant claims of liberal bias is the very definition of debate. But hey ... however you want to twist things is up to you. Just don't think you're some kind of Mr. Objectivity or your just setting yourself up for a fall.

cthulu23

In my group of friends and acquaintances, I know of only one or two that want Bush reelected....it all depends on who you know and what circles you live in.

quicksteal

I've never seen the German news (and if I did, I wouldn't know what it was saying), but it's very disappointing to hear that they are so biased in their coverage. Kerry's position on Iraq at least is pretty much the same as Bush, so I don't see why the German media wants him elected.

As for our media, I think that they're liberal b/c they have to be interesting to sell newspapers or keep us watching the TV. Being a liberal is much more interesting than being a conservative. Example: NEW HEALTHCARE PLAN FOR ALL--sounds great, but when viewed conservatively it's seen as unaffordable and reduces the quality of healthcare. ROLL BACK THE TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY--sounds like the rich don't need a tax cut, but when viewed conservatively these tax cuts stimulate the economy via investment, purchases, and job creation.

What I'm saying is, what is a news organization going to talk about, the forces for change or the sanity stopping it?

Paq

umm...no offense, but you're in Georgia, right....it's not like the liberal bastian of the country.

I'd be shocked if you could find a kerry supporter within 5 miles of you. i think current polls show georgia as about 60/30 in favor of bush

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ShaniFaye

That might have relevance if everyone I knew was from here.....in the Atlanta area its more common to meet some one thats not from here than not

I was just pointing out that like cthulu23 said it depends on your circles and who you know....

but also....georgia has primarily been a democrat state...our current gov is the first republican gov since 1868

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Rdr4evr

Funny, in real life I don't know ANYONE that supports dubya. It all depends on where you are from and what type of people who associate with I guess. I am from Southern California, where it is extremely diverse, so you don’t tend to find a lot of bias, where say, in Alabama or Texas you would.

jb2000

A common state of affairs throughout the South. Here in Texas, it is the first time that our Lege has been Republican in forever.

But you have to remember that the Conservative Southern Democrat is no longer a large force in the party having either defected to the Republicans whose views they more closely match, or simply have retired/died off.

The parties have changed over time, and they undoubtably will continue to change over time. That's why I will never be a life-long or 'Yellow-Dog' Democrat. If the Democratic Party or a Democratic Candidate stops offering the closest representation of my political will, I will vote for whomever does. It's silly to marry a party because parties aren't faithful.

Regardless, to say Georgia or North Texas used to be long time Democratic strongholds doesn't mean that they are or ever were liberal bastions.

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kutulu

How can you accuately state that they are left biased if you have NEVER seen/heard/read their news? What is your source of information? Rush? Talk radio? Ann Coulter? Ya those are objective sources... Why don't you check it out on your own and come to your own decisions?

Who controls Fox news? Who controls the radio waves? Conservatives have absolutely no problem getting their message across.

lukethebandgeek

I traveled through Europe this summer, and found that even though America is still well liked in Europe, Bush is not. No matter what you say, the President is not quite sucessful with his foriegn policy. So I doubt that they even have a liberal bias. I think its just an anti Bush bias.

As for the political climate, what has been said about the fifty fifty thing is about right, Although I'm pretty sure Bush will win.

P.S. I love Germany. Especially the beer.

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daswig

Considering the fact that Rather ran his forged Kinko's memo hatchetjob on Bush, it's gonna be a hard sell that the Media is dominated by Conservatives...