NY Times, most respected? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

reconmike · 05-15-2003, 05:59 PM

A while ago people here in this forum were spouting out about how the New York Times was THE most respected paper in the world.

How does it come about that a newspaper of this magnitude can willfully let a reporter lie and fabricate stories.

I think they are banking that the liberals that read this paper will forgive anything.

Here is a link that it is business as usual.

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 06:01 PM

It's alright, because Jayson Blair is a minority. I'm sure that there is a way to pin it on the VRWC.

He's also not the first. According to slate/msn he's one of many that were discovered recently to be making up stories and/or sources:

Quote:

Last week, New York Times reporter Jayson Blair joined Janet Cooke, formerly of the Washington Post, the New Republic's Stephen Glass, the Boston Globe's Patricia Smith, and Jay Forman in Slate as journalists who got caught embellishing, exaggerating, and outright lying in print. The will to fabricate cuts across disciplines, with academics and scientists inventing data, too. Last year, Emory University history professor Michael A. Bellesiles resigned following an investigation of charges that he concocted evidence to support his book Arming America, and Bell Labs fired researcher Jan Hendrik Schon when it discovered he made up scientific data and published it.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2082741/

edit:
---------------------------
I didn't read the entire article. Now that I have, I will post the rest of it for your convenience!

Quote:

The unmasking of a counterfeiter tends to inspire busy discussions of his motive. In the case of Blair, who is black, observers such as Mickey Kaus speculate that affirmative action may have pushed Blair to a position of responsibility before he was ready for it. The busted fabricator almost always cites personal or emotional problems, and sure enough, Blair struck that note last week, telling the Associated Press, "I have been struggling with recurring personal issues, which have caused me great pain. I am now seeking appropriate counseling. ..."

Those seeking to "understand" the liars' behavior tend to blame the liars' employers, making the liar the victim. The bosses pushed him too hard, or they took a young, promising journalist and threw him into the deep end—beyond his known abilities and experience—way before he was ready. Folks rush to swaddle the liar and his motives in psychobabble instead of placing the onus where it belongs.

No single explanation can cover every case, but my guess is that most liars make things up for the simple reason that they don't have the talent or the ability to get the story any other way. According to the Washington City Paper account, Blair repeatedly concocted specifics, both sensational and mundane, while covering the D.C. sniper story. He didn't really need to: Other Times reporters were on the story, too. My guess is that Blair made stuff up because he didn't know how to wheedle gossip out of prosecutors and cops, he didn't know how to put two and two together and make the next call to find news, and he didn't know how to take notes and report the facts straight.

Jonathan Chait, who worked with Glass at the New Republic, remembers that Glass wasn't really much of a stylist: Glass' stories read beautifully because the late Michael Kelly poured his genius into them before publication. Kelly would often remark on reading a Glass first draft of how great the story was but that he needed more detail. As it turned out, Glass wasn't much of a reporter, either. Instead of digging for more, he conjured the effects he thought Kelly wanted. A little closer to home, a similar thing happened at Slate when I edited Jay Forman's monkeyfishing piece. When Forman, who did go monkeyfishing, turned in a first, flat draft about his Florida Keys adventure, I encouraged him through several rewrites to add more writerly detail to increase the piece's verisimilitude. Forman complied, inventing numerous twists to the tale and even confessing intense remorse for things he never did.

The lesson I learned isn't to refrain from asking writers for detail but to be skeptical about details that sound too good or that you had to push too hard to get the writer to uncover or that are suspicious simply because any writer worth his salt would have put them in his first draft. All that said, it's almost impossible for an editor to beat a good liar every time out.

Blair, like Glass, Cooke, Smith, and Forman, got away with making things up for as long as he did because journalism is built on trust. As New York Times Executive Editor Howell Raines told the Washington Post today, "Frankly, no newspaper in the world is set up to monitor for cheats and fabricators." When an editor gives somebody a notebook and pencil and tells him to go out and report, it's a little bit like giving somebody you barely know a loaded gun. You expect him to use it wisely and honestly. But one slip, and there's hamburger all over the wallpaper! Hence, most reporters don't make things up because 1) they're as ethical as Jesus Christ or 2) they know they'll get caught.

The Blair revelations should distress everybody who creates or consumes copy. How many prevaricators lurk out there? But the wrong takeaway from the Blair-Cooke-Glass-Forman disasters is to assume that young people can't be trusted to report. Instead (and how about this for drawing a happy face in a mound of manure?), their sordid experiences in the journalism trade indicate that so many young people get caught making stuff up because you can't get away with it for very long. Journalism ain't perfect, but it loves to eat its sinners.

maximusveritas · 05-15-2003, 06:27 PM

I was one who referred to it as the most respected paper in the world, which it was indeed was before this scandal broke. I don't think many people, even those who worked at the Times, could have seen this coming. From what I've read, it looks like some very bad management.

While I can't help but lose a little respect for the paper, I know its best to keep it perspective and realize, as seretogis pointed out, that this has happened before and will happen again. For the most part, most journalists are working hard to get the truth out to the public.

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas
From what I've read, it looks like some very bad management.

and now from the article:

Quote:

Those seeking to "understand" the liars' behavior tend to blame the liars' employers, making the liar the victim. The bosses pushed him too hard, or they took a young, promising journalist and threw him into the deep end—beyond his known abilities and experience—way before he was ready. Folks rush to swaddle the liar and his motives in psychobabble instead of placing the onus where it belongs.

maximusveritas · 05-15-2003, 06:35 PM

Well, I think its obvious that Blair was in the wrong. Its the job of management to discover this, as they did, and then take appropriate action, which they did not. By doing this, they became his partners in crime.

splck · 05-15-2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike

How does it come about that a newspaper of this magnitude can willfully let a reporter lie and fabricate stories.

I think they are banking that the liberals that read this paper will forgive anything.

Sounds like people should be pissed off with the reporter, rather than the whole newspaper. I can't imagine editors "willfully" letting a reporter lie.
I'm sure if a reporter from your favorite daily was busted for plagiarism, you would keep reading it, as long as they fired said reporter.

reconmike · 05-15-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Sounds like people should be pissed off with the reporter, rather than the whole newspaper. I can't imagine editors "willfully" letting a reporter lie.

The problem is Splck that memos were written over a year ago about Blair's "facts" and stories and nothing was done then.

Liquor Dealer · 05-15-2003, 07:06 PM

Add to that the fact that they have acted more like the Paris than New York Times for the past several months and they have very little credibility left.

KillerYoda · 05-15-2003, 08:17 PM

Ehh, FOX news was robbing Iraq. People make mistakes.

reconmike · 05-16-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KillerYoda
Ehh, FOX news was robbing Iraq. People make mistakes.

Is this the same as the democrats robbing me of my hard earned money and giving it to crack whores?

KillerYoda · 05-16-2003, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike
Is this the same as the democrats robbing me of my hard earned money and giving it to crack whores?

Who knows? We're talking about news sources, last time I checked, not political parties.

Kadath · 05-16-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike
Is this the same as the democrats robbing me of my hard earned money and giving it to crack whores?

I imagine it's similar to the Republicans taking my tax money and spending it on things I disagree with, such as billion dollar bombers. Reality of government. They are only accountable to a certain degree; they don't have to run every purchase past us.

reconmike · 05-16-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KillerYoda
Who knows? We're talking about news sources, last time I checked, not political parties.

Ok, so what does a couple of thieves in Iraq have to do with a lying reporter for the most respected paper in the world, and his superiors who allow it?

KillerYoda · 05-16-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike
Ok, so what does a couple of thieves in Iraq have to do with a lying reporter for the most respected paper in the world, and his superiors who allow it?

They worked for Fox News. We're talking about news sources and having respect in their field. I have trouble respecting someone who has employees stealing from the invaded nation they're covering just as much as I do about plagarism.

reconmike · 05-16-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KillerYoda
They worked for Fox News. We're talking about news sources and having respect in their field. I have trouble respecting someone who has employees stealing from the invaded nation they're covering just as much as I do about plagarism.

Were they reporters, cameramen? But Fox isnt the most respected news source in THE WORLD now are they?

And it wasnt just plagarism, it was out right fabrications of stories,lies. I think I see a big difference between thieves, and
a reporter making up stories and stealing them, and then his supervisors condoning it.

KillerYoda · 05-17-2003, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike
But Fox isnt the most respected news source in THE WORLD now are they?

Then why do all the pro-war people quote it all the time?

Plagarism or not, the whole purpose of this thread was to attack a source the anti-war people use the majority of the time to prove their points. It could have been filed under "let's start a flamewar" from the begining.

weedline · 05-17-2003, 03:24 PM

The only thing I can say is what the Rev. Martin Luther King said.
Judge people by the content of there character not the color of there skin.

Macheath · 05-17-2003, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KillerYoda
Who knows? We're talking about news sources, last time I checked, not political parties.

Unless you're one of those cynical fools who thinks that Fox News is just another faction of the GOP.

When will those people learn anyway? - Newt Gingrich is a political ANALYST now, a real bona fide journalist dammit.

Mad_Gecko · 05-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Sorry, Trollin'

Duh, "He who wins the war, writes history"...

They ALL fuckin' give their opinion on the stories they report. Very few sources of NEWS these days.. They all just give different slants on the same story. News should be new...but it generally isn't.

So they lie, big fuckin' deal. The human race generally lies, its not NEWS. Not worried 'bout Tony or Bush or Osama, more worried about where my paycheck is comin' from.

/2 cents worth..

smooth · 05-19-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad_Gecko
Sorry, Trollin'

Duh, "He who wins the war, writes history"...

They ALL fuckin' give their opinion on the stories they report. Very few sources of NEWS these days.. They all just give different slants on the same story. News should be new...but it generally isn't.

So they lie, big fuckin' deal. The human race generally lies, its not NEWS. Not worried 'bout Tony or Bush or Osama, more worried about where my paycheck is comin' from.

/2 cents worth..

If you watch C-SPAN you can watch events live--without commentary. In fact, at first I was annoyed when the reporters didn't point things out to people calling in or speaking on the show--then I got used to it. So now I value non-commentary and hope that people will make informed decisions--based on their own conclusions and not according to a particular framework the information was presented within.

I often wonder if people actually understand the amount of research that has been conducted for the purposes of understanding and manipulating people, their motivations, and their understandings.

eyeronic · 05-24-2003, 02:09 PM

Seems to me like his lying was only influential with regard to the sniper case.

What do people think is the worst thing that has happened as a result of his deceit?

I personally think that shaming the best big paper in the country was the worst thing.

05-15-2003, 05:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	NY Times, most respected? A while ago people here in this forum were spouting out about how the New York Times was THE most respected paper in the world. How does it come about that a newspaper of this magnitude can willfully let a reporter lie and fabricate stories. I think they are banking that the liberals that read this paper will forgive anything. Here is a link that it is business as usual. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

05-15-2003, 07:06 PM	#8 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Add to that the fact that they have acted more like the Paris than New York Times for the past several months and they have very little credibility left. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-15-2003, 08:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
KillerYoda The Original Emo Gangsta Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository	Ehh, FOX news was robbing Iraq. People make mistakes. __________________ "So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

05-19-2003, 01:35 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mad_Gecko Pro Libertate Location: City Gecko	Sorry, Trollin' Duh, "He who wins the war, writes history"... They ALL fuckin' give their opinion on the stories they report. Very few sources of NEWS these days.. They all just give different slants on the same story. News should be new...but it generally isn't. So they lie, big fuckin' deal. The human race generally lies, its not NEWS. Not worried 'bout Tony or Bush or Osama, more worried about where my paycheck is comin' from. /2 cents worth.. __________________ [color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass "If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers." Confucious

05-24-2003, 02:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
eyeronic I run E. Location: New York	Seems to me like his lying was only influential with regard to the sniper case. What do people think is the worst thing that has happened as a result of his deceit? I personally think that shaming the best big paper in the country was the worst thing. __________________ I hold with those that favor fire.

05-15-2003, 06:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I was one who referred to it as the most respected paper in the world, which it was indeed was before this scandal broke. I don't think many people, even those who worked at the Times, could have seen this coming. From what I've read, it looks like some very bad management. While I can't help but lose a little respect for the paper, I know its best to keep it perspective and realize, as seretogis pointed out, that this has happened before and will happen again. For the most part, most journalists are working hard to get the truth out to the public.

05-15-2003, 06:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Well, I think its obvious that Blair was in the wrong. Its the job of management to discover this, as they did, and then take appropriate action, which they did not. By doing this, they became his partners in crime.

05-17-2003, 03:24 PM	#17 (permalink)
weedline Upright Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida	The only thing I can say is what the Rev. Martin Luther King said. Judge people by the content of there character not the color of there skin.