irateplatypus

at least rdr4evr has the courage to admit that he isn't for the U.S. soldiers. i've met a lot of people who seem to have the same stance he does but won't admit to it.

this may be seen as a personal attack, and it very well may be. i'll let the mods deal with me if i am out of line. i truly think you are either an irresponsible person for posting what you have in this thread, or else you are a despicable one.

senselessly firing on civilians is called murder... no matter if you're wearing a uniform or not. to make that charge against our soldiers is

A) tasteless, juvenile and irresponsible if you don't truly mean it.

B) despicable and indicitive of a very warped view of reality. if you truly believe that in your heart i think you should take a very honest look at yourself and what drives you to believe such hateful and patently false things.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rekna

The helicopter firing on a crowd of civilians is boarding on war crimes.

irateplatypus

of course it is... do you really believe the situation was as simple as that?

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rekna

no I don't but I do believe they could have eaisly fired warning shots to clear the area before shooting the vehicle. And preventing them from looting (or were they preventing celebrating) is not a good reason to kill indiscriminetly.

irateplatypus

if that is all there was to it, then i would agree. knowing what i know about our military personnel and the grave consequences of breeching LOAC and international law... i am betting the total situation isn't how it is being represented so far.

i think some people forget that overly aggressive tactics toward iraqis only make our soldier's job more difficult. they are keenly aware of this and go about the jobs they are there to do with this knowledge. more uprisings mean more bullets and RPGs in their direction. no one on TFP is more alert of this concept than they are i'm sure.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rdr4evr

Please tell me you are joking! To make a charge that the soldiers commit acts of murder is despicable?! You are telling me the soldiers do not commit acts of murder? You think these guys take the Iraqis out for dinner and a movie. Be realistic, the US soldiers as well as soldiers around the world commit acts of murder. Once again, for the millionth time, I am not against JUST American soldiers, I am against all soldiers, I am against war, I am against killing for personal gain, I am against death of innocent people. Please stop making it seem like I am anti-American. I love America as a country, it is possibly the greatest place in the world to live; I just don’t like how their govt. abuses their power.

I do mean it 100%. What do I possibly have to gain by saying something I don’t mean on the internet. That is just ridiculous.

I don’t think I am the one with a warped view of reality. The reality of war is death, violence and hatred. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that we are in Iraq because we care for their well being.

powerclown

Last April, a certain Palestinian terrorist by the name of Abu Abbas was caught north of Baghdad by US Special Forces. After slithering from country to country, eluding international police, he had finally found home sweet home in secular Saddam Hussein's Iraq since 1994. I would bet a penny he wasn't the only upstanding citizen hiding under an Iraqi rock.
Allegedly seen on billboard at a border crossing into Iraq:
TERRORISTS!! REJOICE!! FREE ROOM & BOARD, 150 MILES AHEAD!!
200,000,000 DINARS (payable to S. Hussein): ALL-U-CAN-STASH AMMO DUMP - ON PREMISES!!

irateplatypus

I'm saying exactly that. Am I trying to convince you that no U.S. soldier has ever murdered anyone at anytime? Of course not. I do, however, take personal exception and offense that this is a "usual occurrence."

Don't tell me you're one of the simple who consider every death in war to be murder? Would you consider every U.S. soldier killed to also be murdured?


don't flatter yourself into being a martyr. no one said that.

yes, it's quite uncommon for people not to be completely serious and truthful on the internet.

/sarcasm

we're there for our own well-being, i'll grant you that. even so, that doesn't mean they won't benefit in the long run from it.

nope, the next thing i'm going to tell you is that you owe a million people a very sincere apology.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rdr4evr

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Martyr?!! I love when people use that word on the internet. It is so stupid that its funny.

Martyr-One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

Yes I am suffering death on the internet because of my principles. This word is way too often misused on web forums. Its a joke. Maybe there is another definition for "martyr" that I am not aware of. If so, please do enlighten and excuse my laughter and sarcasm.

When it comes to this specific subject, it is plain stupid to be dishonest.

I owe a million people an apology?? For what??

irateplatypus

Yes, there appears to be one you haven't heard of. I'll just go ahead and use a dictionary...

couldn't agree more.

you owe those people (our soldiers) an apology for calling them murderers with admitted complete honesty and seriousness.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rdr4evr

One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy? Once again this does not make sense. Nobody here is suffering to arouse sympathy. Don’t use that word on the internet regarding what I said, its sad.

Once they apologize to the families of those innocent who they have killed, I will apologize to them.

irateplatypus

lol

we'll never find a way to discuss this as we're approaching this from very different angles. let the rest of TFP judge this one. this world gets nuttier everytime my alarm clock goes off in the morning. if anyone is still reading this thread, i'll see you on another one.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Bodyhammer86

Look, I really hate to break this to you, but war is hell. Civilian casulties are inevitable no matter what anyone does. When we bombed Iraq at the beginning of gulf war 2, we used precision munitions to take out our targets. Obviously, those munitions are imperfect. It wasn't like we were intentionally bombing schools, neighborhoods, or whatever. Give that "the US are malicious killers!" bullshit a rest.

__________________
Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/

pedro padilla

y,know, I think theres a lotta young kids over in this godforsaken sand land that really have no idea what the hell they´re doing there. They hear one thing and see something else entirely different every day. A lot of em are just pissing their pants and firing at anything that moves, which given their situation, is entirely understandable. The situation is far from being " under control".
i can see how some freaked out 20 year old kid in the desert could snap and make a mistake. I can also see how some gungho squirrel huntin inbred could take pleasure in being an instrument of god and taking down the nearest towel head in town.
i support the US troops in that we should get them the fck outta there. It was a mistake. big time mistake. There are currently thousands of professional mercenaries in afghanistan and iraq. They get paid up to ten times what your average national guard flunky pulls down but don´t have to eat the mre´s. They get paid by the same boss and have free rein. plus the deniability bonus by the big boy´s. lotsa shit is being commited by non military, albeit sanctioned, psychos getting paid to be dirty as hell.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/18193/
http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=434

quite possible that US soldiers (official) are getting hit with the guilty stick just for being in the neighborhood. seems that the US was/are also employing a scandalous quantity of ex israeli military "advisors". Several were abu ghraib "interrogators".
it´s next to impossible at this point to keep track of whos killing who and where the hell they come from. murder? accident? sheer terror? who knows. the thing is, there just doesn´t seem to be any end in sight. 4 more years? gimme a break.

may you live in interesting times. - ancient chinese curse.

powerclown

Faith, padilla, have some faith.
Rome wasn't built in a day you know.

rainheart

You know, I just blame myself for reading a thread in the politics forum again. Too much stress too little progress.

Why don't you break that news to the millions of misled americans who were brainwashed by endless sugarcoating that this war was going to be quick and easy? And then when you're done with that group, tell it to the soldiers who signed up believeing it was going to be just that easy as well.

The administration made it look like "hell" came in easy to take, chewable lite tablets, and everybody who bought that crap was made a fool of.

Lebell

Locking this thread.

Some of you need to take a break from "Politics" and go look at some titties or something.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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