pan6467

Amazing isn't it Bush joined the Guard so as not to go to Vietnam but he sure as hell can call them up. (Cheap shot and very poor, but the righties here would have said a lot worse had Clinton or Gore done this)

It just proves things are not as rosy as the administration wants people to believe. Because they wouldn't do this before the election UNLESS,

1) they knew they were going to win and had no fear of any repercussion....

or

2) things are so bad we need everyone we can get over there and the administration is trying to save their ass before it truly erupts over there... (which reminds me when this started the press were everywhere over there, now all I see are little snippets and we truly hear very little)

Regardless of why, these boys need our prayers and our support. Hopefully they will be home when they are scheduled to be and not like active duties who are told one thing then end up being told that they can't leave yet.
====================================

Weekend Warriors Go Full Time
National Guard Deployment Is the Biggest Since World War II

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 2, 2004; Page A01

FORT POLK, La. -- Deep in "The Box," big blue buses morph into rolling, apocalyptic explosive devices. Danger crouches in the high brush and glares down from the pines. Smoke and flame interrupt breakfast, obliterate lunch, upend dinner. Sleep is for the weak or the foolish.

A tireless teenager's constitution is all that keeps Bret Roberts, a 19-year-old National Guardsman from Depoe Bay, Ore., alert. Under the weary gaze of his squad leader, Roberts peers down a lonely Louisiana road as he leans hard into a belt-fed M249 machine gun capable of delivering 750 rounds per minute. "Looking for the big blue bus of love," he says with the devil-may-care aplomb of a grizzled veteran.


Spc. William Wiese, left, and Pvt. Bret Roberts look for makeshift bombs along the roadside while training at Fort Polk, La. (Rebekah-mae N. Bruns -- U.s. Army)

The bus Roberts is looking for is a prop, just as the explosions and the menace in the woods are artful fictions, all part of an elaborate training exercise concocted to prepare thousands of National Guard troops engaged in the biggest deployment of citizen soldiers in more than half a century. Sometime this spring, not long after Roberts and his pals leave the 200,000-acre training pod known as "The Box," National Guard and reserve troops will come to represent nearly 40 percent of the 105,000 U.S. military men and women in Iraq.

Not since World War II have so many National Guard units been pressed into service abroad. Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, more than 143,000 National Guard members have been mobilized worldwide, with the biggest single concentration expected this spring when more than 35,000 Army National Guard troops -- topping the wartime peak of 30,000 -- are slated to arrive in Iraq as thousands of their colleagues rotate home.

Yesterday, the Pentagon announced that units from New York, Louisiana, Idaho and Tennessee would be deployed to Iraq by late this year or early next.

The massive call-up is beginning to make governors, who rely on the National Guard to respond to disasters, exceedingly nervous. In Arkansas, for instance, more than half of the state's 8,200 National Guard troops have been mobilized. The state has had to call out the National Guard over the past six years for two giant tornadoes and a devastating ice storm, and Arkansas officials wonder whether they would be too shorthanded to respond quickly to another crisis. One-fourth of Maryland's National Guard has been mobilized, as has 30 percent of Virginia's.

N. Wayne Ruthven, director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management, estimates the outflow of National Guard troops from his state could cause 40 percent delays in disaster response time and "a 40 percent time delay may mean the difference between life and death."

The huge deployment is also redefining the nature of National Guard service, transforming weekend warriors into something very close to full-time soldiers, who regularly leave behind jobs, businesses, families -- entire lives -- for extended periods. Roberts and his unit, the Oregon Guard's 2nd Battalion, 162nd Infantry, nicknamed "The Volunteers," are nearing the end of six months of training away from home to be followed by a one-year assignment in Iraq. Some of Roberts's colleagues are already old hands at this; they are not that far removed from lengthy stints in the Sinai and in Kuwait in the past few years.

No one knows what all this packing and repacking will mean for the future of the National Guard. The guard is currently meeting its retention and recruiting goals, but there is no way to know whether those now enlisted will opt to return to duty.

The fears are palpable. Mark Sanford, the Republican governor of South Carolina and an Air Force reservist, predicted at last week's National Governors Association meeting in Washington that a flood of the butchers, insurance agents, small-business people and others who make up the Guard will be reluctant to reenlist because of the increasing demands on their time.

"It's going to be a testing time for the Guard," said Eric Parnell, who at 43 is the oldest soldier shipping out for Iraq with the Oregon Guard unit. "It's transformed from a weekend with the boys to an integral part of the Army."

Gone are the days when the Guard's abilities were routinely disparaged. During Desert Storm in the early 1990s, the Guard was humiliated when three of its brigades intended to supplement active-duty divisions were not sent into battle because top military brass deemed them unfit for combat. This time around, with the Guard receiving spanking new equipment and months of enhanced training, there has been little criticism of its readiness.

Iraq will be Parnell's last go-round, he says while picking through a mess-tent breakfast of gristly ham slices. He has had enough after four years of active duty and 17 years in the Guard. He wants to get back to cutting meat at Albertsons. He wants his life back. Many will take the same path, but an upsurge in patriotism could counterbalance the departures, he said.

Parnell is one of the steady hands navigating the crazy quilt of manufactured obstacles and complications invented by the Army's training gurus at Fort Polk. The people who run the Joint Readiness Training Center here have built a network of simulated Iraqi villages and populated them with more than 200 actors, who assume the role of Iraqi citizens -- some friendly to the United States, some not so friendly. The scenarios are seemingly endless, each one mapped out on a chart that slightly resembles a Hollywood movie treatment. This makes sense because the Army sent some of its trainers to California studios to study war-movie special effects -- it is a case of art imitating life, then life imitating art. The script calls for bursts of looting, roadside bombings, the quandary of discovering sensitive religious artifacts and the death of a prominent Shiite cleric.

A group of soldiers based at Fort Polk -- known as "the most hated unit in the Army" -- plays the starring role of Iraqi insurgents with ruthless efficiency, popping out of the giant fort's byzantine nooks to simulate the slaughter of unsuspecting National Guard troops. It looks a bit like the world's greatest game of laser tag, with each soldier carrying a laser-fitted weapon and wearing a sensor-studded vest that registers hits. Teams of observers monitor the proceedings, grimly jotting notes that will be used during critiques at the end of the eight-day course.

Roberts's squad spent hours of boredom manning a damp mortar pit ringed with sandbags and marked by a sign that read "Don't Feed the Animals." Under a camouflage tarp, which kept their 81-inch weapon relatively dry, they nibbled through gloppy Meals Ready to Eat and waited for the inevitable.

One afternoon, a breathless battalion officer ran up with word of a hazardous-material spill. Roberts piled into the back of an open Humvee with his squad leader, a rawboned sergeant from Toledo, Ore., named Aaron Strom. Strom, 23, had big plans for 2004. He was going to go back to school and learn enough about motors to open his own repair shop, instead of working for someone else.

He even changed Guard units, hoping to avoid an overseas deployment, figuring he'd done his part by going to the Sinai for Uncle Sam. But it didn't work out that way. Strom, who joined the Guard when he was 17, got the deployment call and he had a big problem to face. His former girlfriend wasn't emotionally prepared to care for their 2-year-old daughter, who was beset by nightmares, and he was worried that his current girlfriend wouldn't be happy about him running off just months into their new relationship.

He had to make a move.

Within days, he had proposed to and married his girlfriend, Jessica, and arranged for his daughter, Mikayla, to stay with his mother while his ex-girlfriend sorted out her life.

"I did a whole 180 with my life real quick," Strom said of the deployment order. "That was the last thing I needed."

Next to Strom, William Wiese, a soft-spoken specialist, crouched with an automatic weapon against his shoulder, peering through the drizzle. Wiese is as close to a pacifist as it gets in the little six-man squad. In spare moments, he read a book called "The Buddhist Tradition" and argued with Roberts -- who loves to blow things up and has been dubbed "a stone-cold killer" by his mentors -- about the ethics of hunting for sport.

The deployment was a conflicting event for Wiese, who was recently laid off from his job at a lumber mill. The call-up meant a steady paycheck to support his wife, Arya, and their children, Aaron, 21/2, and Samuel, 1.

But it also meant a painful separation. "Emotionally, I'm not sure it was such a good thing," he said in a barely audible voice.

After a bumpy, half-hour ride, their Humvee pulled up near a pile of debris marking the mock chemical spill and the squad scrambled out to secure the area. An officer from another Humvee told them to check for explosive devices and Roberts bounded off enthusiastically into the woods, blithely running past a real-world sign marking an old target range that read: "Danger Unexploded Ammunition."

The official observer watching them was apoplectic. Strom, composed beyond his years, calmly corralled his youthful charge and lectured him at the side of the road.

"Sometimes he tries my patience," said Brant Gilmore, 27, the squad's driver. "But then, I have to think to myself, 'He's only 19 years old.' "

Properly scolded, but unbowed, Roberts lay next to the road, aiming his big machine gun and sucking the mound of Copenhagen he had stuffed along his gumline.

He is mindful of the real-life dangers that await -- 76 of the 547 soldiers killed in Iraq have been members of the Army National Guard or the reserves -- but says he is prepared for anything. One of the casualties -- a National Guard specialist named Chris Taylor, 25 -- was laid to rest, just to the east of them in Kentwood, La., on one of the days that Roberts and his squad were training at Fort Polk.

Roberts's boss -- a lovably crusty 43-year-old captain named Daniel Morris -- knows the risks, too. Morris is a trumpet player, and he has already packed two horns for Iraq. One is for happy tunes; the other, he'll set aside in case he needs it for a funeral.

===========================

LINK: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Of course then this is what our boys have to look forward to with this great president who is so very patriotic and loves our troops......How pathetic can this man be?

They fucking lay their lives on the line for the country, are seperated for months from their families, get injured and get this welcome home.

This administration treats our men like dogs. Makes me wonder how anyone can support this.

Righties can blame and will Clinton all they want but they have been in power of Congress since '98 and have been in total power since '01.

This is just the summary if you want the whole story the link is posted.... not enough space to post it all.
======

Senators Kit Bond and Patrick Leahy, co-chairs of the U.S. Senate National Guard Caucus, dispatched their aides to Ft. Stewart to investigate reports that activated Guard and Reserve members were being poorly housed, with inadequate medical attention, while on "medical hold."

Summary

Approximately 650 members of the National Guard and the Army Reserve who have answered the call-to-duty and in many cases were wounded, injured or became ill while serving in Iraq, are currently on medical hold at Ft. Stewart, Ga. Army base. As a result of an investigation by a reporter and expeditious follow-up by a veteran service organization representative it has come to our attention that these National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers have been receiving inadequate medical attention and counsel while being housed in living accommodations totally inappropriate to their condition. Of the roughly 650 injured soldiers currently awaiting medical care and follow-up evaluations, approximately one-third of these soldiers were found not physically qualified for deployment and therefore never deployed overseas. The remaining two-thirds deployed overseas and were returned to Ft. Stewart as a result of wounds or injuries sustained while serving or as the result of illness encountered either before or after deployment. Regardless of the nature of the medical malady, these soldiers have been enduring unacceptable conditions for as many as 10 months.

The return of the 3rd Infantry Division from the Middle East (18,000-strong which is permanently stationed at the base), has forced commanders to lease barracks from the Georgia National Guard that were designed as temporary quarters for National Guard soldiers undergoing annual training. They are not designed to accommodate wounded, injured or ill soldiers awaiting medical care and evaluation. The Army has designed a Disability Evaluation System that is purposely slow to ensure that National Guard and Army Reserve citizen-soldiers who are found not physically qualified for duty receive a fair and impartial review when undergoing a medical evaluation board. The process, similar in many respects to the workman's compensation process, requires that these soldiers be given every opportunity to recover. If full recovery is not possible, the system works to establish a baseline condition before the soldier is evaluated by a medical evaluation board.

The situation at Ft. Stewart unfortunately was, and remains, hampered by an insufficient number of medical clinicians and specialists, which has caused excessive delays in the delivery of care. Exacerbating the situation, was the Army's placement of wounded and injured soldiers in housing totally unsuitable for their medical condition. Additionally, these soldiers were placed under the leadership of soldiers who were also injured, resulting in a situation where the sick and injured were leading the sick and injured. Furthermore, the perception among these soldiers is that the traditional active duty soldier is receiving better care, compounding an already deteriorating situation that had a devastating and negative impact on morale. Most of the soldiers in the medical hold battalion, which was established administratively to provide a military structure for the soldiers, have families living within hundreds of miles; yet they have been unable to join their families while awaiting the final deliberation of their cases.

In the short term, we must alleviate the unacceptable conditions at Ft. Stewart and determine if the problem is isolated to Ft. Stewart alone or part of a larger system wide problem.

Alleviating the problems at Ft. Stewart will require the immediate assignment of additional medical clinicians, specialists and medical support personnel and/or the transfer, where appropriate, of our National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers to facilities close to their families so they can continue to receive quality care and await further medical reviews if necessary in an environment conducive to healing. We must also ensure that the conditions at Ft. Stewart are not replicated elsewhere, while ensuring the fixes we install at Ft. Stewart are applied throughout the Army if necessary. In the long term, the Congress must address the physical readiness of the National Guard and the Reserve by passage of a pending bill, TRICARE for Guard and Reservists, to ensure that every member of the Guard and Reserves has adequate health insurance coverage and is medically ready to deploy.

======
LINK: http://www.ngac.org/news/troop_treatment.htm

BTW this is a nonpartisan pro-military site the National Guard Association Of California.

We need to hammer this man on where the money for the military truly is going.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

While you most likely have me on ignore, which is cool, I'll post for anyone else who cares to read.

Apparently Ft. Stewart needs help and apparently a better CO based on that report. The money to fix the housing problem has been granted but is apparently held up by some red tape. The article itself places no blame on the white house, but more due to local factors and national guard medical policy. Regardless we should blame Bush.

We should extend this out I think....

There is a hurricane about to hammer Florida and Louisiana, Bush's fault.

You know, my referrals in one of my offices is down quite a bit lately, maybe I can blame Bush for that as well.

The radio in my car is on the fritz, its Bush's fault.

I need to loose about 10 lbs, that damn Bush.

You know if I didn’t know how much you hate smearing, I’d swear this is a baseless smear on the president.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Fred181

1. Bush sent those Guardsmen into harmsway where they were subsequently injured.

2. Bush is the Comander in Chief. If he wanted something fixed there would be no red tape, it would be fixed

Congress passed this bill under pressure from vet organizations however never acted on it because the Bush admin (Rumsfeld) determined that it would cost too much money.

__________________
My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

pan6467

For those who say Kerry is against the military because he didn't vote for 1 bill. What about these where Bush threatened VETO on our troops?

Kerry-Edwards 2004: Overstretched Guard and Reserves, Overstretched Families

Tue Sep 14, 1:11 PM ET





To: National Desk


Contact: Chad Clanton or Phil Singer, 202-464-2800, both of Kerry-Edwards 2004


WASHINGTON, Sept. 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said: "George Bush (news - web sites) vehemently opposed efforts to improve health care for the National Guard, Reservists and veterans but had no problem doling out billions to companies like Halliburton. It's just another example of how George Bush's emphasis on helping out his special interest friends at the expense of the brave men and women in uniform has taken the country further in the wrong direction."


BUSH THREATENS VETO ON HEALTH CARE FOR GUARD AND RESERVES


THREATENED VETO ON TRICARE FUNDING. As part of the $87 billion emergency supplemental appropriations for security and reconstruction in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) in 2003, the Senate passed an amendment that provided an additional $1.3 billion for improved medical benefits for members of the National Guard and Reserves and veterans. OMB Director Josh Bolten wrote to the Congressional Appropriations' Committees, threatening to recommend a veto, stating, "The Administration strongly opposes these provisions, including Senate provisions that would allocate an additional $1.3 billion for VA medical care and the provision that would expand benefits under the TRICARE Program." (Fox News 10/21/03, BVA legislative bulletin, 2003; CQ, 10/20/03, Statement of Administration Policy, 10/16/03; New York Times, 10/22/03)


REFUSED TO EXTEND TRICARE BENEFITS TO NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVES. The Bush Administration opposed extending TRICARE health coverage to the National Guard and Reserves in the 2004 Defense Authorization Act. On July 8, 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld wrote to the House Armed Services Committee, "If the President is presented a bill that...expands TRICARE, then I would join other senior advisors to the President in recommending that he veto the bill." (Rumsfeld letter to Congressman Duncan Hunter, 7/8/03)


OVERSTRETCHED GUARD FACES DELAYED PAY AND LOST JOBS


GAO REPORT FINDS 94 percent OF GUARD SOLDIERS HAVE PAY PROBLEM. "Overall, 450 of the 481 (94 percent) Army Guard soldiers from our six case study units had at least one pay problem associated with their mobilization. In addition, our limited review of the pay experiences of the soldiers in the Colorado Army Guard's 220th Military Police Company, who are currently deployed to Iraq, indicated that some of the same types of pay problems that we found in our six case study units continued to occur." (GAO Report, "Army National Guard Personnel Mobilized to Active Duty Experienced Significant Pay Problems," 1/28/04)


GAO REPORTS SAYS ARMY RESERVE SOLDIERS HAD PAY PROBLEMS. "Of the 332 of 348 soldiers (95 percent) we audited at eight case study units that were mobilized, deployed, and demobilized at some time during the 18-month period from August 2002 through January 2004 had at least one pay problem." (GAO Report, "Army Reserve Soldiers Mobilized to Active Duty Experienced Significant Pay Problems," 8/20/04)


REPORT: PAY PROBLEMS HAVE "PROFOUND IMPACT" ON SOLDIERS AND FAMILIES. "These pay problems often had a profound adverse impact on individual soldiers and their families. For example, soldiers were required to spend considerable time, sometimes while deployed in remote, hostile environments overseas, seeking help on pay inquiries or in correcting errors in their active duty pays, allowances, and related tax benefits." (GAO Report, "Army Reserve Soldiers Mobilized to Active Duty Experienced Significant Pay Problems," 8/20/04)


SERVICE MEMBERS RETURN HOME AND FACE LOSING OLD JOBS. "Increasing numbers of National Guard and Reserve troops who have returned from war in Iraq and Afghanistan are encountering new battles with their civilian employers at home. Jobs were eliminated, benefits reduced and promotions forgotten." In all, approximately 4,000 Guardsmen and reservists have filed job complaints with the Labor Department (news - web sites) since 9-11. (AP, 8/15/04)


UNDER BUSH, GUARD NOT AVAILABLE FOR DOMESTIC PRIORITIES


STATES CONCERNED THAT GUARD WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR DOMESTIC PRIORITIES. The Washington Post reported that the National Guard is stretched so thin that it may have problems facing domestic disasters if they arise: "The Iraq mission is placing new stress on the active-duty Army as it leans more heavily than it has in decades on the Guard... it is provoking more immediate worries in states that rely on the Guard to deal with fires, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes." (Washington Post, 6/6/04)


STATES HARDEST HIT:


Ohio soon to become a "hollow force." "Ohio's commander, Maj. Gen. John H. Smith, warned, 'We will soon be a hollow force without replenishment dollars to replace what is being consumed or lost.'" (Washington Post, 6/6/04)


Oregon at half-strength. "The governor of Oregon, Ted Kulongoski, a Democrat, said in an interview...that the troop deployment (in Iraq) had left his National Guard with half the usual number of firefighters because about 400 of them were overseas while a hot, dry summer was already producing significant fires in his state." (New York Times, 7/20/04)





New Hampshire "tapped." "'As far as New Hampshire goes, we're tapped,' said Maj. Gen. John E. Blair, that state's adjutant general, or Guard commander. Of his 1,700 Army National Guard troops, more than 1,000 are in Iraq, Afghanistan or Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or on alert for deployment." (Washington Post, 6/6/04)

North Carolina less prepared for hurricanes. "The brigade the North Carolina Guard now has in Iraq came from the southeastern and southern parts of the state, the area that tends to bear the brunt of hurricanes." (Washington Post, 6/6/04)

West Virginia stretched thin. "Some soldiers in West Virginia's 1092nd Engineering Battalion got home in April from 14 months of duty in Iraq -- only to be activated in the past few days for weeks of flood-relief work in Mingo County and other southwestern parts of the state." (Washington Post, 6/6/04)

Florida needs more funding. Florida's Maj. Gen. Douglas Burnett said: "Rather, Burnett's complaint is money: 'We're proud to be in the fight, but we've got to be funded'." (Washington Post, 6/6/04)
============
LINK: http://www.usnewswire.com/

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...amilies132_xml

BTW, who's protecting us from the terrorists here at home?

I mean with Bush cutting aid to cities and cities like Cleveland having to layoff police and firefighters who's guarding us at home?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

More money lost by enlisteds during Bush.....

If this were Gore or Clinton I would still harp, our men and women who put their lives on the line so that we may enjoy our freedom deserve far far better.......

And a DEM Senator is fighting for the men..... hmmmmmm
=======
Pay gap for Guard and Reserves remains an issue

By STEPHEN BARR

The Washington Post


Congress and the White House moved expeditiously this summer to enact a defense spending bill for fiscal 2005 and provide the troops with a 3.5 percent pay raise next year.

At the Aug. 5 signing ceremony for the bill, President Bush pointed out that military pay raises over the past four years have totaled nearly 21 percent.

“This money is well earned, well deserved and well spent,” Bush said.

But Congress, the Pentagon and the White House have shown less enthusiasm for another pay raise bill — a proposal that would make up any shortfall in salary when a federal employee is called to active duty in the National Guard and the Reserves.

The government is the largest employer of Guard members and reservists, and some members of Congress, mostly Democrats, think Washington ought to set an example for employers across the country.

Studies indicate that 30 percent to 40 percent of activated Guard members and reservists lose income when deployed. A Pentagon survey in 2000 found that most troops reported an income loss of $3,750 or less while on active duty. But some, about 7 percent of survey respondents, reported much larger losses, in the range of $37,000 to $50,000 annually.
Over the last two years, Sen. Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat; Sen. Barbara Mikulski, a Maryland Democrat; Rep. Tom Lantos, a California Democrat; and others have pushed various bills that would require federal agencies to make up the difference between civil service and military pay for those on military duty.

At one point, Durbin got the Senate to include his pay gap bill in an emergency supplemental appropriations bill for Iraq and Afghanistan operations. But the amendment was stripped out of the spending bill in negotiations with the House.

Despite that rejection, the Durbin bill continues to inch along.

In July, the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee approved Durbin's Reservist Pay Security Act. It would make up the difference between civil service and military pay for federal employees called to active duty and would authorize $100 million for retroactive pay for federal employees activated since Oct. 11, 2002.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the Durbin bill would cost $152 million in 2005 and $334 million from 2005 to 2009. The provision awarding retroactive pay would account for $128 million of the estimated five-year cost.

Supporters of the Durbin and Lantos efforts point out that many companies and state and local governments offer a pay differential for employees who are activated for the Guard and Reserves.

About 65,000 reservists are employed by federal agencies, and an additional 48,000 federal technicians are required to be members of the Guard as a condition of employment.

In its review of the Durbin bill, the CBO estimated that an average of 21,000 federal employees will be on active-duty military service in fiscal 2005, dropping to about 11,500 by 2009. This projection assumes that Iraq and Afghanistan will require a smaller commitment in coming years.

But efforts to close the pay gap faced by some mobilized federal employees have been rebuffed by the Defense Department.

In addition to concerns about the cost of the legislation, Pentagon officials have argued behind the scenes that making up differences in pay for civil service employees would undercut military morale. Essentially, officials fear that they could end up with a soldier and a reservist of the same rank in the same foxhole who are paid differently by the federal government

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

irateplatypus

Bush supports the troops. He garners overwhelming support from them. It made me sick when Kerry sanctimoniously declared that "help is on the way" for our troops... as if most of them wanted his bullshit promises. This is a matter of record (divined from polls, personal experience, studies... etc.) not my preferred notion. That being said...

This subject is one of my biggest personal departures from the Bush administration's policy regarding defense. The national guard is being tasked with missions and deployments that A) they weren't designed or funded to execute B) the soldiers who signed up weren't told they would be engaged in. Additionally, the military has put "stop loss" restrictions on certain high-value career fields. Not only are the personnel in those fields unexpectedly deployed overseas for years at a time... they have lost the option to leave the service under these changed circumstances. That would certainly be frustrating.

I feel the reserve and guard components of our military have risen to the occasion and made huge sacrifices without much complaint. Sadly, I feel the government has not done it's part to recognize the extraordinary burden they have born.

I feel these soldiers have been taken advantage of. On one hand they have a strong sense of duty and commitment to their service, but on the other they're getting the screw job. The U.S. is trying to wage war on-the-cheap. By activating these components and congress not raising the cap on service size... they are saving money but expecting the same level of service from our current force as they would from a full-fledged active duty force.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

pan6467

Who's doing this to the soldiers Irate? Who?

Yes, you say you seperate yourself from Bush over this, but I can not think of a more important subject than the protection of our country and the military is that.

Bush is freaking threatening to veto help for our men, yet Haliburton gets whatever they need.

Overcharge for fuel? No problem, pay the company.

Charge for items that you have not provided the military with? No problem, pay the company.

Healthcare for our troops? Yeah right can't afford it.

Equal pay to reservists? Hell no, it'll bring down morale of the troops.

Make sure they have their jobs when they get home? Can't do that.

I have shown proof that is exactly what the administration is saying to the proud men and women, who are willing to die for freedom and every man woman and child in this country.

I am not trying to be partisan (like I said no matter who was president, I would find this beyond contempt). I am just posting facts and reacting to them. Yes, I hate Bush, and yes, this adds fuel.

In all honesty, every single one of us should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing this to happen. THIS ISN'T A PARTISAN THING THIS IS A TRUE PATRIOTIC, AMERICAN THING. (Although, I know a few of you will make sure it becomes partisan. Again, I say, it's Bush doing this, NOT THE DEMS, NOT THE SENATE GOP (obviously enough of them had to vote yes to Durbin's bill to get it through). BUSH is doing this, with some help in the House.

Without men to work the weapons, it doesn't matter what weapons we have, they are useless.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

irateplatypus

well, that fact is...

the soldiers are enduring hardships... but they support the way that the President is waging the war on terror, at least much more so than the way they perceive Kerry running it. they will endure hardship because it is war, because that is what they signed up for, because they love the country, because they swore to "defend and uphold the Constitution" regardless of how much money they are given for healthcare.

also, i don't think the financial support for our troops is in poor condition because of the Bush adminstration outside of the Reserve/National Guard deployment issue. don't forget that the morale was significantly lower during the Clinton years because of the way they treated the troops. Bush may not be perfect, but in overall policy he is much more in tune with how the soldiers feel than the past administration was. i keep up with military publications and am in contact with AF personnel on a daily basis, so i'm not guessing or speaking out of ignorance on this.

i do, however, blame Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld for the issue of the thread. they may not be completely culpable, but they do have the most power and influence to change things for the better.

i think the citizens of our country would be willing to take on additional burdens to ensure that our guard and reserve components get a fair shake. if the case is made with sober facts and bipartisan support, i'm confident our country will respond warmly to the plight of our soldiers across the political spectrum, though they bear it with little complaint.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Ustwo

Exerpts of Bushes speech to the 126th National Guard Association of the United States conference.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mephisto2

That article is 6 months old.

Isn't it a bit late to be debating this, based upon old news?

I'm no Bush-Butt-Lackey, but I don't see how he can personally be to blame for a broken system. Didn't he inherit it?

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo

Ahhh the National Guard.... Lets see what they think?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/p...1n17kerry.html

From what I heard, durring his diatribe against Bush, some of the guard stood arms folded, some turned their backs, and others just walked out. I find Kerry's last line amusing in a pathetic sort of way.

I rather doubt the military vote is going to go to Kerry.

Some more I was able to find...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...16-kerry_x.htm

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pedro padilla

itsa bit chilly in here. anyone feel a draft?

smooth

Now, wait a minute,

are leaders supposed to say what is popular or say what they believe is right?

because earlier you posted a lot of slop about how kerry doesn't take a stand and only states what his audience wants to hear.

but here you seem to be implying that bush wins the day due to receiving more applause


how do you keep all these dissonant concepts in your mind?

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

Oh god Smooth, this time you go a bit far in trying to avoid the issue at hand. The issue of the original post is how Bush is someone fucking the National Guard. Well I would think if that were true he would have a poor reception from them wouldn't you think? The fact is he is well respected by the Armed forces, the people he is supposted to be abusing, and sending off to die. On the other hand 'Hope is on the way' Kerry does not have the respect of our troops who apparently do not agree with his assesment of Iraq.

Of course Kerry could have said what the Guard wanted to hear, but that would mean he would have had to agree with Bush on Iraq, and last time he did that his handlers stopped letting him take questions from the press

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smooth

actually, you keep hinging bush's goodness toward the national guard on the members' support for him

he could be fucking them over and they don't realize it--their support is not evidence of his support of them

but you aren't able to go from point A to C with your rudimentary logic--but then I must be playing word games

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

pan6467

I don't know. Make going into the military (whether it be active duty or guard) the only way anyone can get into college (unless their parents can afford it or the kid gets a great full ride scholarship) and you won't need a draft.

In other words, do what Bush is doing, keep cutting education and kids will have no choice if they want to go to college. Of course if he decides to fight another front, then even that won't be enough so we'll have to have a draft.

The only great thing I can say about this is, I heard all week how in a recent survey Ohio voters say they will vote out their representatives if they cut state education anymore (I'd venture to say they probably feel the same way federally although the reports I heard didn't say that). This is one of the first signs the pendulum is truly starting to come back left. It's also a sign that Taft is pretty much a goner and we'll get a Dem in office.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

The links I read showed they asked higher ranking officers, who even in the guard are usually lifers, play politics and are more than likely to show they are gung ho and wanting to go because the truth may interfere with their promotions and a higher paygrade. You didn't hear from what the enlisted men are saying.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Yes, I'll admit it's 6 months old. But I also showed newer articles showing that Bush threatened vetoes of raises, weird rationality as to why the Feds. won't pay the guard the same pay as active (which when I was in the guard got the same pay as active, when they were active. When they were weekenders they got a prorated salary.

Inherited it? After 3 years in office and a congress of his party that has shown they will pass anything he wants, he couldn't change the system and make it better?

Come on that is a lame fucking excuse. I can see Bush and his cronies using it. Just as now in election year as this stuff comes out he's claiming he'll do more for them, but hasn't he had since Jan of 01 to do it?

What has stopped him? OOO he's been too busy giving tax cuts and budgeting in Haliburton contracts.

Of course Bush made a lot of promises in '00 and never did shit to see them happen, but he brings them out again this year. My favorite is Private retirement funds to help Social Security. I liked the idea in '00 but he hasn't done shit to do it. Now he is still using it? What stopped him from doing it in his first term? But I digress and get off topic.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

smooth

yeah, pan, I agree. I read that and thought the same thing.

I didn't really think that pointing that 'fact' out would make much difference because, even when ceding the point that ustwo wants to believe so deeply, party A's support of party B doesn't make the the reverse is true.


what stopped him from doing private insurance accounts his first term was the shithole economy. eveyone would then realize what a farce his idea is once they plunked a grand in the bank and ended up with $1,130 at the end of 4 years.

(although I'd have to check my IRA, because I don't remember if it has passed the principle amount since the shit got kicked out of the stock market a few years back)

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Flyguy

Kerry/Edwards 2004

irateplatypus

true or untrue, hopefully we're all clear that is pure speculation... i'm going to take a stab in the dark and furthur speculate that pan has no or limited contact with national guard enlisted personnel.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

pan6467

Actually my entire best friend's family is military. His dad was marine recon and is now retired from the Ohio National Air Guard, his brother is a Staff Sgt in the ONAG stationed at Mansfield Lahm airport, he (my best friend) is a Marine Gunney in intelligence, who actually is in Iraq has been since Jan.

I have 3 neighbors in my building that are serving 2 in the reserves and one a marine recruiter. We talk quite often.

I still have shipmate friends in the Navy that I correspond with, 2 in particular that we write to each other at least once a month or so.

One of my uncles was a retired Master Sgt. in the Air Force, his son my cousin Jeff is in the USAF.

Another uncle was an Air Force fighter pilot in Vietnam, and both of his sons are fighter pilots.

I love ya Irate, but don't assume things about me, simply ask and I will answer. I have quite a bit of military contact both in retirees and reservists/active. I really thought you were above personal attacks Irate.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

irateplatypus

i will say that your fundamental perceptions of military personnel seem to differ from the experiences i've had with them... but i apologize for engaging in false speculation.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

pan6467

It's cool and I do have to admit, the majority are Bush supporters. But, it doesn't make his policies or what he does right.

My point triggering was, they seemed to quote officers but why not the enlisted men who are the ones truly getting fired at? They may answer the same, but at least we have the opinions of the enlisted men and women also, not just the officers.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

smooth

I will say that I personally interact with a number of enlisted persons, many of them familial, some of whom speak like you do, and some like pan.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

hammer4all

Hmm... once they got you, they won't let go.

Army Pressures Soldiers: Re-Enlist or Go To Iraq

MikeyChalupa

Here's an example of someone who doesn't understand misconstruing this article.

This happens ALL THE TIME in the military. You signed on for a reason. The military is going to get their return on their investment in you. You NEVER tell your chain of command you're planning on getting out until you leave because if you do, they're going to have to get as much out of you before you leave as they can, i.e. deployed overseas, lack of advancement or promotion opportunities, no training opportunities. If those Guardsmen had just re-enlisted, they'd in all likelihood be staying stateside a lot longer with their unit. Or should they just have turned the 3rd Armored Cav right back around and sent them to Iraq with the same group that just returned from there, and no relief personnel?

But of course, the point of this article is that the military is bad, evil and just plain sucks to have any association with. Probably Bush's fault.

-Mikey

pan6467

I've never heard of people being threatened to re-enlist. Hell, people would count the days down they had left to serve. Of course when I was in the Navy, Bush had cut 70,000 Marine and Navy jobs and they were offering people early outs. Then 6 months later Desert Storm hit.

Hmmmm threatening troops to reenlist or be transferred.... sounds like they will have a seriously BAD morale problem. Especially if you send them back to Iraq. Wouldn't want those men fighting for me. I want men and women who want to be there, not ones forced to be there through threats and blackmail. Ask Vietnam vets what that's like. Cause once ya get enough people there that don't truly care, don't want to be there, and are bitter because the government screwed with them (and yes, being told you will reenlist or be sent back is screwing with them) you've lost the war.

If you aren't offering a bonus or reward for reenlistment and instead you treat soldiers this way.... the men are going to be a little pissy and the morale is going to go to Hell. We can have all the great weapons in the world but if we don't have the men wanting to use them......they are indeed worthless scraps of metal.

Morale wins and loses wars boys.... and I don't see our president inspiring it. "We can't win the war on terror." "I don't know how soon you men will get home." "You'll be home by June..... errrrr ok Sept. ...... well hopefully by Christmas...... Reenlist or we'll send you back......" some mighty great incentives there.

If anything I can see volunteer enlistment going down fast... so maybe there will have to be a draft soon.... which will just make matters worse.

Sad really all this for oil and over lies.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeyChalupa

It's not threatening them to re-enlist. They're saying go ahead and get out but before you do we have to deploy you.

Yes we do have a morale problem because our military is too small today. We're bottom heavy, i.e. too many E-1 to E-4, because they're only TRYING to get one full enlistment out of new recruits (too many people getting kicked out for drugs, failing to meet physical standards, or just generally being fuckups). And that's without trying to fight an unpopular war. So before they let a good crop of hard to come by VOLUNTEERS go by the wayside, they need to get all the service out of them they can before their tour is up.

-Mikey